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Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 239
Solaris Ecladia Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic Likes received: 239	#221 - 2013-03-07 19:34:13 UTC 6 In regards to PvP, SP doesnt matter that much. I had 3m SP (about 2 months) and was in the top 10 killers of my alliance. What matters more than SP is your willingness to try and fly what you can rather than go for that battleship right off the bat like oh so many people do.

Malcanis

Vanishing Point.

The Initiative.

Likes received: 18,382

#222 - 2013-03-07 19:41:07 UTC

Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:

Haulie Berry wrote:

Quote:

Is it possible to do other things than lvl4 missions in a battleship? Certainly.
is it relevant in the context of our discussion? Not in the least!

So, let's review your position, in aggregate, now:

-Economic activities don't count, they're not fun.
-PvP doesn't count, you have to able to fly command ships or carriers before you can do that ****.
-PvE? Level 4s or bust. It's not relevant that newer players can engage in comparably rewarding PvE mechanisms, because... because... just because.

What did I say earlier?

Again, you don't seem to be able to grasp WHY those arguments are irrelevant.

We're talking about the newbies that quit the game / are reluctant to even START the game because of the huge SP barrier preventing them from doing the things they would deem attractive.

Because of their misperception that there is an SP barrier.

You can help by explaining that misperception and not perpetuating it.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Haulie Berry

Likes received: 1,145

#223 - 2013-03-07 19:43:33 UTC | Edited by: Haulie Berry

Quote:

We're talking about the newbies that quit the game / are reluctant to even START the game because of the huge SP barrier preventing them from doing the things they would deem attractive.

The barrier is a lie, though. Your repeated insistence that it exists doesn't actually make it true. I know the conventional wisdom is that if you are going to lie, lie big, and repeat it often, but in this case, it's an obvious enough lie that it doesn't really work.

If they find PvP attractive, there is no skill barrier preventing them from engaging in PvP on day one.
If they find mining attractive, there is no skill barrier preventing them from mining on day one.
If they find PvE attractive, there is no skill barrier preventing them from running missions on day one.
If they find industry attractive, there is no skill barrier preventing them from doing that on day one.
If they find trading attractive, there is no skill barrier preventing them from doing that on day one.

If the only thing they find attractive is flying a pirate BS or capital ship, I'm comfortable with their being disappointed by the inability to do that on day one.

On average, though, it's like Malcanis said earlier: Idiots telling new players that they can't do anything without 25 million SPs are a problem, yes. The ability to actually do things? Not so much.

Gizznitt Malikite

Agony Unleashed

Agony Empire

Likes received: 4,267

#224 - 2013-03-07 20:00:29 UTC

Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:

Namdor wrote:

Quote:

One ship explodes, the other doesn't. ALWAYS the same player's ship.

I guess if you're the kind of really bad player who hits orbit and turns their guns on, this might be true.

Are you that bad?

Weird, how everyone assumes his opponent is a complete idiot.

If we're both equally skilled, he who does 20% more damage and can also tank 20% more damage will consistently win.

My First Solo Kill - A raptor

flying a Tristan which is shortly lost thereafter...

I didn't have t2 guns, I couldn't use a t2 armor repper, I had level 4 skills in most core skills.... My opponent had much higher skills... yet I still killed him while taking fire from other ships...

We all acknowledge, in a straight up punch for punch, kick for kick, stamina to stamina brawl the more SP you have over the other player the more likely you are to win (although not 100% as damage is RNG based). This is NOT how PvP in EvE functions though... There are no "straight up" fights...

In PvP, pilots typically fit differently, use different tactics, engage under different circumstances, and so on and so forth... These details have a FAR larger impact on determining the outcome of a fight than raw SP.

Namdor

Likes received: 73

#225 - 2013-03-07 20:05:24 UTC | Edited by: Namdor

Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:

Namdor wrote:

Quote:

One ship explodes, the other doesn't. ALWAYS the same player's ship.

I guess if you're the kind of really bad player who hits orbit and turns their guns on, this might be true.

Are you that bad?

Weird, how everyone assumes his opponent is a complete idiot.

If we're both equally skilled, he who does 20% more damage and can also tank 20% more damage will consistently win.

That is a big assumption. That said...

The type of simplistic, direct-exchange-of-damage slugout you are describing is pretty rare, even in 1v1.

I suspect you do not actually PvP.

Gizznitt Malikite

Agony Unleashed

Agony Empire

Likes received: 4,267

#226 - 2013-03-07 20:13:22 UTC

Haulie Berry wrote:

Quote:

We're talking about the newbies that quit the game / are reluctant to even START the game because of the huge SP barrier preventing them from doing the things they would deem attractive.

Let's be a little more realistic:

If they find PvP attractive, there is no skill barrier preventing them from engaging in PvP on day one.

If they find mining attractive, there is no skill barrier preventing them from mining on day one.

If they find PvE attractive, there is no skill barrier preventing them from running missions on day one.

If they find industry attractive, there is no skill barrier preventing them from doing that on day one.

If they find trading attractive, there is no skill barrier preventing them from doing that on day one.

Aliastra Gallente Federation 278
Drew Solaert Aliastra Gallente Federation Likes received: 278	#227 - 2013-03-07 21:18:41 UTC Frig 3-4 Prop Jamming 3-4 AB 3 / High Speed 3 there you go, PvP ready., in about half a day, which gives you just enough time to do the tutorial agent missions at a lesiurely pace. Just bring friends. I lied :o

Haulie Berry

Likes received: 1,145

#228 - 2013-03-07 21:25:43 UTC

Quote:

-- I'd give it 4 days to a week honestly.... most of that time should be spent understanding flight control, PvP mechanics, etc... After 1 week, you can be a very effective member of a fleet... and might even be able to solo in a frigate if you read up on how to do it. On day 1, I'd be very shocked if you solo anyone other than newbs in the newb system...

Oh, no doubt there are learning curve issues, but the claim is that there is some ridiculous "skill point wall" that one must climb over before they can play the game.

If you can fit scram, guns, and prop, you can PvP.

Stazzmo

Interstellar Accounting Consortium Inc. LLC

Likes received: 3

#229 - 2013-03-07 21:57:37 UTC

Hefty TheFirst wrote:

Jacob Holland wrote:

The first thing I'd have to ask is simply...

What goals are you looking at which require 1-2 years of training?

In terms of straightforward goals the only ones I can think of in that range would be the high-end of capital ships - I might suggest these to be end-game content (though end-game is a little bit of a flexible term). You don't want the end-game content immediately, it would be boring.

The journey is important, quiting because you can't get a Titan on day 2 misses the point of that.

SP is a visible measure of what you're capable of, of course, but it's a deceptive one. A pilot with half a million of the right SP and the knowledge and resources to leverage it properly is far better off than one with 100 million of the wrong SP, the wrong ship, the wrong situation...

And there is no lower limit on the number of SP it takes to have fun - I know several pilots who were pirating lowsec, ratting null or engaging in fleet battles with less than a million SPs, in some cases created specifically to minimise their clone costs...

I am somewhat impressed that you were able to answer some of the questions.

1-2 years of training would put you into a capital ship yes. Core skills? NO.
Now go ask some one that has a capital ship. They will say it's suicide.

Now I can see your angle but I nowhere near stated that I'm butthurt because I can't fly a Titan.
Half a million vs 100m that was funny... Really funny. There you are talking about some who knows the game in and out.
Probably an alt flying with the 500k SP. So the main account is the real player not the 500k SP.

Also this post is for NEW PLAYERS AND WHY MOST OF THEM QUIT SO EARLY.
Pirating in lowsec to minimise clone cost with low SP. That isn't even a sentence.
If you can't afford your clone cost you are doing something very wrong with all that "A pilot with half a million of the right SP and the knowledge and resources to leverage it properly is far better off than one with 100 million of the wrong SP, the wrong ship, the wrong situation...".

You look incredibly stupid right now.
I don't even really want to post this reply but you asked for it.

What an arrogant reply to a thoughtful answer. And because of your first line and the last two i think you deserve every "character attack" thrown at you in this thread.

Sure they could make certain skills and activities easier to get into but they won't because that's not the kind of game this is. I'm going to train to be able to fly an Ishtar, and with my skills that's a month away plus whatever time it takes to fit it right. And i don't care about how long that will be. Your friends did and went elsewhere. That is the point of a trial, what is your issue with that?

I think the funniest thing you said in your OP was "...how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?" By being patient. And how do you define greatness? Awhile ago i wanted to become proficient at mining, not The Awesomest Miner in the Universe, but proficient enough to lend a hand in fleet ops and be able to solo. Goal, plan, execution and now my character can do exactly what i wanted him to be able to do. And more importantly I as a player know what to do because i learned how to do it and there was no "skill wall" that stopped me.

So you said you want to see the game grow, grow into what? What would be your alternative or your fix? Maybe you said it somewhere but unfortunately i was too distracted by your d-bag replies to really care about what else you had to say.

Malcanis

Vanishing Point.

The Initiative.

Likes received: 18,382

#230 - 2013-03-07 22:15:57 UTC

Haulie Berry wrote:

Idiots telling new players that they can't do anything without 25 million SPs are a problem, yes.

People who do this are literally the worst kind of griefers. The punishment for doing this should be the same as that for can baiting in noob systems.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Inkarr Hashur

Skyline Federation

Likes received: 504

#231 - 2013-03-07 23:57:21 UTC

Malcanis wrote:

Haulie Berry wrote:

Idiots telling new players that they can't do anything without 25 million SPs are a problem, yes.

People who do this are literally the worst kind of griefers. The punishment for doing this should be the same as that for can baiting in noob systems.

Then there's people telling newbies to train all their core skills to V. That's pretty bad too. Heck, most cheap frig or dessie fits don't even require electronics or engineering 5 to fit. Last I checked. The advice should be just "weigh all options, choose what seems like the best one".

Ark Destroyer

BLOMI

Likes received: 382

#232 - 2013-03-08 00:22:22 UTC

I had a good business idea for CCP for some of the older players/toons, mostly to people that may have taken a break here and there...

They could have plexes as a means to fill in the "missing" SP (to a maximum) of skill points that *could* have been trained on the account. I.e. if you trained all of your eve career except say 6 months, you could use 2 plex to get unallocated SP to fill in that game.

This of course has nothing to do with the OP, but it reminded me of something I wanted to jot down awhile back for those of us that have played since beta and may have taken a break here and there :P

Neutral Talent CEO Specializing in "complete" super-capital packages

Complete supercapital packages

Haulie Berry

Likes received: 1,145

#233 - 2013-03-08 00:41:19 UTC

Ark Destroyer wrote:

...if you trained all of your eve career except say 6 months, you could use 2 plex to get unallocated SP...

So your idea is that, if someone actually plays the game, they should get 1 month's worth of SP in exchange for a 1 month subscription.

If someone does not actually play the game, they should get 3 months worth of SP for a 1 month subscription.

...

384
Officer Nyota Uhura Likes received: 384	#234 - 2013-03-08 01:27:09 UTC Holy batmother are you guys still baiting this same troll? Or did this thread get a life of its own at some point?


Inkarr Hashur Skyline Federation Likes received: 504	#235 - 2013-03-08 01:34:08 UTC Officer Nyota Uhura wrote: Holy batmother are you guys still baiting this same troll? Or did this thread get a life of its own at some point? I don't think the idiot's posted in like, 8 pages. Shame the moderators decided to let the thread live, as I don't think we've actually generated worthwhile discussion anyway. But it is what it is.

Idicious Lightbane

Garoun Investment Bank

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 56

#236 - 2013-03-08 09:00:33 UTC

Hefty TheFirst wrote:

Elena Thiesant wrote:

Hefty TheFirst wrote:

Make a trial account. Forget about the contacts you have made over the long periods of time that you have been playing.
With no help from anyone like a normal new player will be exposed too, go see just how useless you truely are in the first few months to a year of eve..

*Looks at less than year old main character*. Nope, not feeling useless today. Didn't feel useless in the first week I played (and yes, I do remember that, it wasn't that long ago), didn't feel useless in the first month either.
A month old character is far from useless unless the player's convinced they can't do anything without a year of training.

And no, go back and read what I wrote, with all your talk of 'character assassinations', you ignored everything but the last sentence.

You bought a character that probably has been specifically designed to be a perfect battleship and Tengu pilot (full T2 fit most likely) and do nothing else, that's what's done on the character bazaar, train and sell characters with very narrow specialisations, that's not how one would typically train or fly for the first 2 years of their main and 2 years are not required to fly a battleship at a good competency level, nor would it be something where you're sitting useless in station until the training's finished.

Train frigates, fly frigates, they're loads of fun (ask the RvB guys). Maybe train destroyers or maybe skip them for cruisers. Fly cruisers, they can also be loads of fun too. Get a battlecruiser, or maybe go straight for T2 frigates, etc, etc.

Narrow specializations is a huge advantage.
Something a new player won't have.

You know that on any 1 ship someone is flying those 10's of millions of extra SP in lvl 5's are just 2% here, 5% there more than someone who has the skills to level 4 right? at level 4 skills (with a few exceptions such as prereq and fitting skills which are all low rank) you are extremely effective, in most situations those last 5's won't make any difference to the outcome.

Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 44
Roseline Penshar Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic Likes received: 44	#237 - 2013-03-08 09:38:55 UTC most Lv 5 skills are for those who seek perfection

Zappity

New Eden Tank Testing Services

Likes received: 3,085

#238 - 2013-03-08 09:45:05 UTC

Idicious Lightbane wrote:

I certainly don't want to encourage the general whinge of this thread but level 4 vs 5 definitely adds up. "2% here, 5% there" is more than just raw DPS since it also affects DPS application from the support skills. Take a crude example here of an Incursus fit (don't care if it's good or not):

[Incursus]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Small Armor Repairer II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Damage Control II

Experimental 1MN Afterburner I
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I

DPS of an all Level 4 character is 147 vs 179 for all Level 5. So already a 22% difference in DPS under perfect conditions. But the real difference appears when the support skills become relevant. Take a situation where there is a bit of transversal and non-optimal range:

- At 4 km range with transversal DPS is now 28 vs 38, a 36% difference.
- Add another 500m and it is now 19 vs 27 DPS, a 42% difference.
- And you get the picture.

So maybe neither pilot would slug it out under those conditions in an Incursus but the results are directly applicable to other ships. I think people say "Only the 5s count" for a reason.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.