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Margin Trading Scam...

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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#41 - 2013-03-07 16:34:20 UTC

A couple points to add to the discussion:

1.) CCP's market tutorial (if there even is one) should explain that buy orders are NOT guaranteed.... This information should not be some secret learned only upon the loss of goods.

2.) The Market should NEVER automatically create a sell order from a failed buy order.... This auto-create a sell order is a TERRIBLE mechanic, and should be removed.

If CCP can manage to do points 1 & 2 above, then margin trade scams are 100% inline with the ambiance of EvE.... I think negating them, especially point 1, is failing on CCP's part.

PS: sometimes you can petition the "sell order" that was created to get your broker fees back... but it's not a guarantee...
Cebraio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#42 - 2013-03-07 17:03:24 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

A couple points to add to the discussion:

1.) CCP's market tutorial (if there even is one) should explain that buy orders are NOT guaranteed.... This information should not be some secret learned only upon the loss of goods.

2.) The Market should NEVER automatically create a sell order from a failed buy order.... This auto-create a sell order is a TERRIBLE mechanic, and should be removed.

If CCP can manage to do points 1 & 2 above, then margin trade scams are 100% inline with the ambiance of EvE.... I think negating them, especially point 1, is failing on CCP's part.

PS: sometimes you can petition the "sell order" that was created to get your broker fees back... but it's not a guarantee...


1.) They do not lose goods, they just can't sell them at the price they had expected. (I agree it could be advertised more clearly that buy orders are not guaranteed.)
2.) There is no sell order created automatically by a failed buy order. The seller may get the option to create one and then he may create a sell order, if he is too busy pushing buttons and doesn't read. That's again his fault if it happens. Rushing trades is never a good idea.

Here is margin trading scam explained. For the scammer it works without part 2:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=18942
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#43 - 2013-03-07 17:27:11 UTC
Cebraio wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

A couple points to add to the discussion:

1.) CCP's market tutorial (if there even is one) should explain that buy orders are NOT guaranteed.... This information should not be some secret learned only upon the loss of goods.

2.) The Market should NEVER automatically create a sell order from a failed buy order.... This auto-create a sell order is a TERRIBLE mechanic, and should be removed.

If CCP can manage to do points 1 & 2 above, then margin trade scams are 100% inline with the ambiance of EvE.... I think negating them, especially point 1, is failing on CCP's part.

PS: sometimes you can petition the "sell order" that was created to get your broker fees back... but it's not a guarantee...


1.) They do not lose goods, they just can't sell them at the price they had expected. (I agree it could be advertised more clearly that buy orders are not guaranteed.)
2.) There is no sell order created automatically by a failed buy order. The seller may get the option to create one and then he may create a sell order, if he is too busy pushing buttons and doesn't read. That's again his fault if it happens. Rushing trades is never a good idea.

Here is margin trading scam explained. For the scammer it works without part 2:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=18942


1.) I was just asking the information to be more clearly advertised.... Pilots often don't learn until they lose isk, not goods as I mentioned...

2.) It used to "auto-create" the sell order.... Did this finally get changed into an "option"?
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2013-03-07 18:08:47 UTC
Real life scams are far worse then any eve scams.

HTFU

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Maarh Airuta
State War Academy
Caldari State
#45 - 2013-03-07 18:12:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Maarh Airuta
I wonder how much easy-greedy ISK this thread generated for the OP. Smile

But that said, I don't think the game would somehow becomes a lesser thing if CCP explicitly informed new players how buy orders work. Gotchas make for lazy game design.
Sivren Ravenwood
Ravenwood Defense Industries
#46 - 2013-03-07 19:47:38 UTC
If it looks like it is gona be easy ISK then its a scam. The only easy isk on eve is ice minning but unless you put alot into training you are only gona make about 2.5 mill and that is pushing it in highsec. Veld will get you about 4mill. BUt the market is no broken my friend makes bank on the market and if I was not lazy I could to.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#47 - 2013-03-07 20:07:11 UTC
Jonathon Oday wrote:
I can answer that:-

"This is too good to be true"


There's an old saying, "You can't con an honest man." Similarly, you can only con a greedy one.

Quote:
Interestingly no mention made of the ethics of the scammer. Just the, undoubted, naivety of the buyer.


There's also no mention made of the ethics of the guy who tricked me into losing a bishop in my last chess game.

Quote:
Never mind, lesson learned and perhaps my trivial experience may serve as a cautionary tale to others? No, I hear you, probably not.


Since there are posts like these on a weekly basis (just like the "Goonswarm scammed me" posts), I doubt it.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
0wl
Hailbird
#48 - 2013-03-07 20:13:56 UTC
Was it one of mine? :]
0wl
Hailbird
#49 - 2013-03-07 20:16:21 UTC
I'll also drop this tit bit of information, margin trading is also dangerous to the person placing the buy order, it IS possible to get that order to go through and release the equity in it... However I shall not go into the details.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#50 - 2013-03-07 20:42:35 UTC
0wl wrote:
I'll also drop this tit bit of information, margin trading is also dangerous to the person placing the buy order, it IS possible to get that order to go through and release the equity in it... However I shall not go into the details.


If the margin trade scammer doesn't know what he's doing... otherwise I'm pretty sure they are safe...
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
#51 - 2013-03-07 20:45:01 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


2.) The Market should NEVER automatically create a sell order from a failed buy order.... This auto-create a sell order is a TERRIBLE mechanic, and should be removed.



Wrong: It doesn't. This is another failure on the OP and your part to understand the difference between Simple and Advanced trades.
0wl
Hailbird
#52 - 2013-03-07 20:49:28 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
0wl wrote:
I'll also drop this tit bit of information, margin trading is also dangerous to the person placing the buy order, it IS possible to get that order to go through and release the equity in it... However I shall not go into the details.


If the margin trade scammer doesn't know what he's doing... otherwise I'm pretty sure they are safe...


Guess what skippy ... they're not ;)

2013.03.04 11:36 Kaikka's Modified Explosive Deflection Amplifier 90,000,000 ISK 4 -360,000,000 ISK ISK ***** Amarr VIII (Oris) - Emperor Family Academy

That's a buy order for 4 with a minimum volume of 4. No ISK was on the character and the buy order was roughly 600mil for each. The equity was released.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#53 - 2013-03-07 20:59:04 UTC
0wl wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
0wl wrote:
I'll also drop this tit bit of information, margin trading is also dangerous to the person placing the buy order, it IS possible to get that order to go through and release the equity in it... However I shall not go into the details.


If the margin trade scammer doesn't know what he's doing... otherwise I'm pretty sure they are safe...


Guess what skippy ... they're not ;)

2013.03.04 11:36 Kaikka's Modified Explosive Deflection Amplifier 90,000,000 ISK 4 -360,000,000 ISK ISK ***** Amarr VIII (Oris) - Emperor Family Academy

That's a buy order for 4 with a minimum volume of 4. No ISK was on the character and the buy order was roughly 600mil for each. The equity was released.

Maybe he knew the character who owned the order. That would allow him to force a fulfilment of the order.
0wl
Hailbird
#54 - 2013-03-07 21:00:25 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
0wl wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
0wl wrote:
I'll also drop this tit bit of information, margin trading is also dangerous to the person placing the buy order, it IS possible to get that order to go through and release the equity in it... However I shall not go into the details.


If the margin trade scammer doesn't know what he's doing... otherwise I'm pretty sure they are safe...


Guess what skippy ... they're not ;)

2013.03.04 11:36 Kaikka's Modified Explosive Deflection Amplifier 90,000,000 ISK 4 -360,000,000 ISK ISK ***** Amarr VIII (Oris) - Emperor Family Academy

That's a buy order for 4 with a minimum volume of 4. No ISK was on the character and the buy order was roughly 600mil for each. The equity was released.

Maybe he knew the character who owned the order. That would allow him to force a fulfilment of the order.


I'm afraid not, the character in question is silent.
K'rul Demelain
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#55 - 2013-03-07 21:19:59 UTC
Jonathon Oday wrote:
Interestingly no mention made of the ethics of the scammer. Just the, undoubted, naivety of the buyer.


If you want to see his ethics just look in the mirror, they're exactly the same as your ethics in the matter. You thought you could make a quick buck off someone's stupidly placed buy order and had no qualms about taking that advantage. Now you cry and say it is not fair he took advantage of your greed or ignorance.
0wl
Hailbird
#56 - 2013-03-07 21:29:24 UTC
K'rul Demelain wrote:
Jonathon Oday wrote:
Interestingly no mention made of the ethics of the scammer. Just the, undoubted, naivety of the buyer.


If you want to see his ethics just look in the mirror, they're exactly the same as your ethics in the matter. You thought you could make a quick buck off someone's stupidly placed buy order and had no qualms about taking that advantage. Now you cry and say it is not fair he took advantage of your greed or ignorance.


+1 If someone convos my character and says "Hey you could just sell that on the market" I tell them what it is, it's the greedy that feed this scam ... Space Monopoly, the best edition.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#57 - 2013-03-07 22:29:06 UTC
0wl wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
0wl wrote:
I'll also drop this tit bit of information, margin trading is also dangerous to the person placing the buy order, it IS possible to get that order to go through and release the equity in it... However I shall not go into the details.


If the margin trade scammer doesn't know what he's doing... otherwise I'm pretty sure they are safe...


Guess what skippy ... they're not ;)

2013.03.04 11:36 Kaikka's Modified Explosive Deflection Amplifier 90,000,000 ISK 4 -360,000,000 ISK ISK ***** Amarr VIII (Oris) - Emperor Family Academy

That's a buy order for 4 with a minimum volume of 4. No ISK was on the character and the buy order was roughly 600mil for each. The equity was released.


So... you're saying that you don't know how to drain your own escrow?

(Make an order for 8, Min 4, sell yourself 4 at a total price of the escrow and you end up with an order for 4, min 4, and 0 ISK in Escrow.)

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Setaceous
Nexus Prima
#58 - 2013-03-07 23:33:29 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
0wl wrote:
I'll also drop this tit bit of information, margin trading is also dangerous to the person placing the buy order, it IS possible to get that order to go through and release the equity in it... However I shall not go into the details.


If the margin trade scammer doesn't know what he's doing... otherwise I'm pretty sure they are safe...


There's a few that don't. I take advantage of them until they learn.
0wl
Hailbird
#59 - 2013-03-07 23:37:22 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
0wl wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
0wl wrote:
I'll also drop this tit bit of information, margin trading is also dangerous to the person placing the buy order, it IS possible to get that order to go through and release the equity in it... However I shall not go into the details.


If the margin trade scammer doesn't know what he's doing... otherwise I'm pretty sure they are safe...


Guess what skippy ... they're not ;)

2013.03.04 11:36 Kaikka's Modified Explosive Deflection Amplifier 90,000,000 ISK 4 -360,000,000 ISK ISK ***** Amarr VIII (Oris) - Emperor Family Academy

That's a buy order for 4 with a minimum volume of 4. No ISK was on the character and the buy order was roughly 600mil for each. The equity was released.


So... you're saying that you don't know how to drain your own escrow?

(Make an order for 8, Min 4, sell yourself 4 at a total price of the escrow and you end up with an order for 4, min 4, and 0 ISK in Escrow.)


Nope, didn't know that. Genius. 7 years in and still learning new things. Eve <3
flakeys
Doomheim
#60 - 2013-03-08 15:00:01 UTC  |  Edited by: flakeys
0wl wrote:
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
0wl wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
0wl wrote:
I'll also drop this tit bit of information, margin trading is also dangerous to the person placing the buy order, it IS possible to get that order to go through and release the equity in it... However I shall not go into the details.


If the margin trade scammer doesn't know what he's doing... otherwise I'm pretty sure they are safe...


Guess what skippy ... they're not ;)

2013.03.04 11:36 Kaikka's Modified Explosive Deflection Amplifier 90,000,000 ISK 4 -360,000,000 ISK ISK ***** Amarr VIII (Oris) - Emperor Family Academy

That's a buy order for 4 with a minimum volume of 4. No ISK was on the character and the buy order was roughly 600mil for each. The equity was released.

Maybe he knew the character who owned the order. That would allow him to force a fulfilment of the order.


I'm afraid not, the character in question is silent.


If you can find the goods cheaper elsewhere you can calculate how much isk he had to put into escrow with margin at level V.As such you can sell the items for the price that IS placed in escrow.In short sell way below his buy order ... but then the item bought offcourse also needs to be tons cheaper wich is usually is though.
-Edit- and i just see the poster a bit above showed how to bypass this

A better idea is to find the items and list them yourself below his.In theory this way you are not scamming so for those 'tender souls' like me perfectly fine and you can make a nice amount of isk .

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.