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Exploration, Risk vs. Reward, T3 ships and DED 4/10s
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Fret Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2013-03-05 23:27:23 UTC
What about having more expeditions in hi sec?

High skill peeps will always do what they do, but there's plenty of sigs
around so a greater chance of an expedition would be great.
Ludi Burek
Exit-Strategy
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#82 - 2013-03-05 23:30:23 UTC
St Mio wrote:


While the upper bound of loot in low is higher, and everyone loves that moment when the wreck rolls an A-type Medium Repper, Invuln/EANM, pirate cruiser BPC and implant, odds are still more likely you’re going to get empty wrecks. So what would you rather choose, given the same time period, 4 rolls at Cruiser C-type Medium Shield Booster, or 1 roll at an A-type?


So, what do you think?
[ ] Exploration is fine, Working as Intended™
[X ] Exploration is broken, Risk ≠ Reward
[ ] High-sec exploration should be nerfed
[X ] Low-sec exploration should be buffed
[ ] Ban all T3 ships from high-sec exploration
[ ] Nerf Deep Space Probes


If you have the equipment and skills, my conclusion was high sec cherry picking and blitzing so far more worth it than low sec. It comes down to the amount of times you roll the dice, as you said.

When I did exploration, trawling through all minmatar high sec regions in one sitting was easy and coming away with nothing was very slim.

I have done low sec exploration and I'd like to think I was very efficient. I used two methods, 2 covert ops probers with covert cyno using dsp method to quickly cover a region and as soon a plex is found cyno in a black ops to do it. The scanning was very fast but if you find one or two plexes, running them slows you down and moving to another region becomes even more time consuming. In the same time in high sec you've rolled the dice twice as often if not more.

Second method I've used is cloaked t3, dropping DSPs (like in high sec) and then refitting to run the site. You move along fast and crossing regions is trivial BUT every time you run a site you fall behind the number of dice rolls in high sec.

So high sec with no risk/stress and care free for similar income (or better) is a logical choice if your main concern is the income itself.

Just focusing on radars in low sec in your one fit cloaky/proby/site running t3 is a decent option though if you like low sec. In quiet regions you can almost find radars on every jump.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#83 - 2013-03-06 10:29:59 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
A game exception rule made because a few items of loot are perceived as too valuable ? Sounds like breaking things because other things are broken instead of fixing things to me.


If that was the case i think the argument would have been nerf the loot table of GSO, but it all honestly i don't really care. The site does give a massive payout considering it's a hi-sec site, but the region is also the most competitive when it comes to exploration.

Things would remain close to what they are now, you would just get a added bonus if you explore outside hi-sec.

You can't use bombs or bubbles in low-sec, which has a lot bigger impact then removing dsp from hi-sec, so exceptions already exist in-game.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Kurgadesh Maladash
Protection of Underground Resources
#84 - 2013-03-06 13:43:07 UTC
The reason why so many null-sec players do hi-sec exploration is because of the isk/hour when compared with low/null sec exploration. A simple fix to this would be to not limit smaller sites to high sec. With this I mean make DED 1-4 spawn also in low and null and make DED 5and 6 spawn also in null.
That will bring more life to low/null exploration as people will prefer less competition (although with more risk associated).
But that's just my POV.
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2013-03-06 14:31:29 UTC
Kurgadesh Maladash wrote:
The reason why so many null-sec players do hi-sec exploration is because of the isk/hour when compared with low/null sec exploration. A simple fix to this would be to not limit smaller sites to high sec. With this I mean make DED 1-4 spawn also in low and null and make DED 5and 6 spawn also in null.
That will bring more life to low/null exploration as people will prefer less competition (although with more risk associated).
But that's just my POV.

I think it would be great if there were more sites you could run in low/null using an Assault Frigate or something.
JudgeFranc
Italians do it better
#86 - 2013-03-06 15:52:49 UTC
Now, first i say sorry if i'm repeting something already said in the tread but i did not have the stomach to read it all ^^, as such i will try to be short too (and sorry for my poor english)


If it wasn't true you wouldn't have bothered to even post about it, would you? ^^

[ ] Exploration is fine, Working as Intended™
[x] Exploration is broken, Risk ≠ Reward

- High-sec exploration (as stated by many before) should be a "beginner area" and as such a starter for the beginners and lowskilled pilots, thus balanced by low risk/LOW GAIN; raising the requirement to spawn the triggers (clear the whole site to spawn the triggers or whatever to extend the time needed to clear it) would not work because the high SP people will still bring the most adadpt ship for the work, and drive off the population meant to do highsec exploration (low sp beginners), it's the value of the drop which is the problem

[x] Nerf HIghSec income
[ ] Ban all T3 ships from high-sec exploration (it's the highSP players doing highsec explo the problem, not the T3 ships themselves)

-U could rise the lowsec profitabilty but still, the majority of people with enough sp to field a t3 or comparable ship in highsec won't move to lowsec because they can milk all the isk they need from highsec with NO RISK, as you reminded me a lot of times in the chat already (it would still benefit the lowsec dwellers tough, but thats not the problem here)

[ ] Low-sec exploration should be buffed is not sufficient as the only measure

-Maybe most of you don't know already, and i'm sad you included that as an options, DSPs have nothing to do with it, you can do the same with normal probes as long as you accept more deviation out of it, stop spreading misinformation to force people to skil into astroV Mio ^^ (well with a second tought if they want the spoonfed easyway they may as well earn it but it ha s nothing to do with the poll, methinks ^^)

[ ] Nerf Deep Space Probes

P.S.:
-for whoever talked about it before, the only form of consensual pvp ccp would allow in highsec is dueling, so no freepvp in highsec for ya (it would defeat the point of highsec entirely)
-gatelocked once in lowsec to avoid pvp? whats the point of lowsec highrisk then? you dont want pvp, carebear in highsec and live with low isk/hour (at least it should be like that QQ, beside, is it really hard to have the dscan set to 100000km once in the site?)
Makavelia
National Industries
#87 - 2013-03-06 16:15:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Makavelia
St Mio wrote:
Kurgadesh Maladash wrote:
The reason why so many null-sec players do hi-sec exploration is because of the isk/hour when compared with low/null sec exploration. A simple fix to this would be to not limit smaller sites to high sec. With this I mean make DED 1-4 spawn also in low and null and make DED 5and 6 spawn also in null.
That will bring more life to low/null exploration as people will prefer less competition (although with more risk associated).
But that's just my POV.

I think it would be great if there were more sites you could run in low/null using an Assault Frigate or something.


I think it should work both ways. If a Bc can't get into a 2/10 then a cruiser can't get into a 4/10. Ishtar and T3's are the kinde ship that can do it all (the ones worth doing anyway). Maybe you guys think thats ok. I just think it removes option fro mthe game we call a sand box. The answer to exploration should not just be ''train T3''. It is the best ship sure, but it should not be the only option.

It would be nice to have more low sec deds, and it would be realy nice if they were either restricted to 1 hull size per rating.. or the restrictions were lifted all together.

I don't see a problem for it. You are just as unlikely to see a BS jumping into a 2/10 as you are to see a t1 frig jump into a 6/10. But the options are there, i like option.

To restrict each dead to a certain hull size would also be nice. In a logistical manner you'd need a ship of every level if you plan to run everything. That's a good thing imo too. It offers restriction in area (you base yourself somewhere in low sec) OR you take 1 ship and roam around to only do one ded type. To each his own.
Kodama Ikari
Thragon
#88 - 2013-03-06 21:36:35 UTC
Makavelia wrote:

To restrict each dead to a certain hull size would also be nice. In a logistical manner you'd need a ship of every level if you plan to run everything. That's a good thing imo too. It offers restriction in area (you base yourself somewhere in low sec) OR you take 1 ship and roam around to only do one ded type. To each his own.


That sounds terrible no matter how you cut it.

Some first-hand PI tips
Soulpirate
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#89 - 2013-03-06 22:49:34 UTC
The quick and easy fix for the interim is to make all sigs the same strength so people have to scan them all.
Perhaps somehow have the just the initial scan strength the same for all, then have the subsequent scans
get tougher,easier depending on what it is. Basically, the first sig is just to let you know there something is
there.

The harder fix is to re-visit the ship restrictions for all sites, and that still could leave a FOTM ship or two that
could cherry-pick anyhow.

Making all DED sites 0.0 space would be interesting too.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2013-03-06 23:41:48 UTC  |  Edited by: DeMichael Crimson
Kodama Ikari wrote:
"wah wah someone quoted me and posted emoticons it must be a troll." Sure buddy, if it makes you feel better. I'll have you know I was exploring long before apocrypha. I had bookmark sets for quest probes set out in several constellations. Back then we had low SP, and clearing out the Maze and the Provincial HQ were team efforts. I don't care that you suggested adjusting triggers and removing shortcuts, its worth considering. I was laughing at you because your white-knighting for PVE content, CCP's "hard work," and "common courtesy" against blitzing is all kind of funny in light of what exploration means in lowsec and nullsec, where minimizing risk to your loot pinata is mandatory and grinding through unnecessary battleships for your e-honor is objectively foolish.


FYI, it wasn't the emoticons, it's the context of specific remarks that you posted which clearly shows you to be a troll, which you did again. The fact that you start out with 'Wah wah" and try to insult me with 'White Knighting" and then try to portray "common courtesy" as a laughing matter clearly proves my point.

Anyway, Exploration was the reason I started playing this game and since my character is way older than your character, I'm gonna call your posted reply exactly what it is - a load of bullsh*t. I was doing exploration before you even started playing this game. Back then, there wasn't very many 'Explorers' around since probing was a tedious and long process which required high skill levels. Explorers treated each other with "common courtesy" whenever they met. Also back then it wasn't done as a solo blitz, running the sites was fleet action.

Kodama Ikari wrote:
That said I did not address your comment about restricting blitzing options. This is definitely something CCP could do if they wanted players spending more time shooting red crosses. I'm against it for primarily two reasons. Firstly, it would take a bit of the mystery out of the sites, knowing the secret triggers, or having explorer's knowledge of the site, to do it, trigger structures would have to be removed or made temporarily invulnerable. Secondly, it would make a few sites moderately more annoying. (Pirate) Base would take longer to hit the trigger structure, the first room of Military Complex wouldn't be skippable. After clearing a 5 room site (with no shortcuts as it is), its kind of nice to plink the boss in the last room right off the bat and then have the option to gtfo or clear the last few battleships.

Whats the upside of changing triggers? Noobs are still gonna get smoked by t3 4/10 farmers. Sites may take slightly longer, but people are still gonna trawl around for GSOs all day every day. Triggers and self locking gates (which have been buggy in the past) would need an overhaul, resulting in headaches for explorers for years to come. TBH, if you're not getting enough time in shooting missiles at crosses, try going somewhere were you have to shoot the big crosses for once. I assure you, those sites have plenty of big crosses that are not skippable/blitzable. In the meantime, keep shovelin' that **** and pretending to know something.

When CCP made the change to Exploration due to all the new content added (W-holes), there wasn't hardly anyone doing it. CCP wanted everyone to have access to their new content and lowered the skill requirements, added a Career agent and made scanning much more quicker and easier. As for info on the sites, triggers and blitzing options, there wasn't any documentation available on that. Now that everything is documented, a lot of players are doing exploration and blitzing the sites in high security which everyone is making a fuss about it. Guess what, CCP will definitely be making some game changes. The only question is when and how hard will they swing the nerf bat.

By the way, I have no problem with current game mechanics. I know all the triggers and will blitz the site and snag the loot very quickly if another player tries to barge into the site when I am "enjoying CCP's hard work". As for game mechanics, if you can't understand how having random triggers, locking gates and clearing all NPC's beforehand to spawn the Overseer will help alleviate the problem currently plaguing high security exploration, then you're obviously trolling.

Kodama Ikari wrote:
Also lol, just saw this quote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
You have every option to PvP me while I'm trying to find the low sec sites. Hell, you could even try to PvP me in the first room of the DED / Combat sites. But after I get the key and access the next room, that gate should be locked again.

Hahaha, yes, there are SO many options to "pvp" a cloaked t3 while it immediately warps cloaked to a safespot in lowsec and proceeds to probe. You're forgetting that its trivially easy to be safe once you've passed the first gate. Well, you would be forgetting, if you knew something about game mechanics. You're also forgetting that both consumable and permanent keys are terrible game mechanics that inhibit collaborative play.


Obviously in your rush to troll, you bypassed what that statement was referring to, which was pertaining to doing low sec exploration. More specifically, how to get more high sec explorers doing low sec exploration.. And yes, there's plenty of options to snag a T3 ship in low security. If you're truly experienced as you would have us believe, then you'd know that. I highly doubt you know very much about exploration game mechanics, especially when you state that players are safe after accessing the initial gate in the sites.

Anyway, in case you're completely clueless, the issue that players are complaining about is high security exploration, ie: not enough sites available.

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2013-03-06 23:55:17 UTC
Calisto Thellere wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:



Being able to fly and use a T3 Cruiser is the end game for an explorers equipment usage. If you want to encourage more players to go into low security and run the exploration sites there, then the sites need to be secure from gang invasions. Plain and simple. Getting there and finding the sites is where the PvP risk factor should be, not while inside the site dealing with PvE risk. Until that is changed, players are not going to do them.




DMC


Sorry to cut your post down to just this paragraph ( it was a good post btw ) but this part made me shout yes, yes this is what i too think would encourage more high sec dwellers to venture into low.

I currently fly round high sec specifically scanning for 4/10 GSO's for the SB drop or Invul drop.

I dont go into lowsec at all exploring as trying to deal with PVE while the threat of PVP in a PVE ship is thrust upon me just doesnt do it for me.

I would go for it if, and only if, once i'd scanned down a site and gone through the gate, it locks the gate to any other ships after 10 seconds or so. If those lowsec dwellers catch me on a gate or probe me down somewhere else, bravo and fair game to them, but if i knew once id risked being probed down, and got past the camps to scan down a site and entered it i'd be safe(ish) until its ended, then sure i'd start exploring in lowsec as would many others i'd imagine.

Cant see this ever happening so it's wishful thinking for now.

No problem (and thanks), I understand and agree with you 100%

Nadir Mcnutberry wrote:
I laugh every time I read these threads so I thought for my first post it would be on this one.

High Sec exploration isn't perfect, but it is working better compared to what is was years ago.

Risk vs Reward - maybe high sec exploration can give nice loot drops, but if the mission runners weren't buying the items the DED 4/10's drop there would be no high demand thus high cost. Game mechanics deal with it!

Don't like my shiny 2bil tengu finding and running the 4/10's faster than you? Adjust your play. Not gonna sit here and tell ya how to do it; But after two years away from Eve when I came back BAM all of a sudden everyone has a T3 and is exploring. What I used to do in exploration didn't work in new climate. I adjusted. Is it aggrevating? Yes. But so is trying to log in and mine late in day and you go to a belt and all the type of roids you looking for been mined out. Guess we should nerf orca's too??

Exploration mechanics broke with DSP's??? You think I need a DSP to find a 4/10 sig in under a minute and avoid the rest? NOT. Again learn the game, adjust your play.

So in closing, quit whining, adust your play, or STH up!! Go run missions.

P.S. DMC you have alot of great posts and comments and have learned alot by reading them. Thanks.
Exactly, I agree 100%.

P.S. You're welcome and thanks for the compliment..

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#92 - 2013-03-07 00:17:29 UTC
Soulpirate wrote:
The quick and easy fix for the interim is to make all sigs the same strength so people have to scan them all.
Perhaps somehow have the just the initial scan strength the same for all, then have the subsequent scans
get tougher,easier depending on what it is. Basically, the first sig is just to let you know there something is
there.

The harder fix is to re-visit the ship restrictions for all sites, and that still could leave a FOTM ship or two that
could cherry-pick anyhow.

Making all DED sites 0.0 space would be interesting too.


In this thread, posters simaltaneously complain about T3s doing everything, and T3s doing only ded4s, and invent stupid restrictions designed to make people stop doing things they like to do, and make them spend longer doing things they do not like to do.
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#93 - 2013-03-07 06:50:13 UTC
Complaining is easy, adapting and HTFU'ing isn't!

Besides, nerfing other people's playstyles while buffing your own has always been the EVE way, hasn't it?
Holy Shizznit
Albireo Solem
Pandemic Horde
#94 - 2013-03-07 07:30:00 UTC
Highsec exploration profit > Lowsec exploration profit...

Hmmm what to do ... why not just nerf highsec exploration? Better yet move 4/10 to lowsec....
Mnemosyne Gloob
#95 - 2013-03-07 07:57:17 UTC
My, this thread hase evolved.

I still sthink that too fast 'scanning' is the issue - call it DSP, call it cherrypicking, call it what ever you want. If the players would need more time to find a 4/10 (and lets face it that's what the discussion is about - i have seen people do the same to 6/10s in lowsec, they actually let 5/10s just sit there, i don't know why...), there would coincidentally also be less 't3s' in one site.

Or, yeah, make the deadspace pockets 'lawless space'. That would be hilarious - for a while. Highsec 'bears' would crawl back into their stations and spin their ships. It would be the same as sending them to lowsec - and i have witnessed the aversion of highsec dwellers to lowsec on numerous occasions, even if what they have to do can be done in a frigate in acouple of minutes.

So yeah there we are. I have the feeling that there are 3 kinds of people in this thread: 1. OMG I haz cool spaceship and know them spreadsheets, you don't touch me!! 2. I see what people do, but still i think something is out of whack. 3. Nerf highsec, buff lowsec/nullsec/whateversec.

Maybe i am wrong on what i think is the problem, but i really don't think it's about shiptypes and/or space (well it sorta is, but you ain't gonna change highsec dwellers).
Ana Fox
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2013-03-07 10:22:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Ana Fox
Holy Shizznit wrote:
Highsec exploration profit > Lowsec exploration profit...

Hmmm what to do ... why not just nerf highsec exploration? Better yet move 4/10 to lowsec....


No matter how good DED sites are good in low sec ,profit will be same.Question is why players do less of them in low sec.
Risk is much bigger then doing it in null sec.Null sec if nothing is guarded by your alliance ,so it is easy to see when neutral is in system .Risk is to big for dice roll chance,so no matter how god DED sites are ,players will do them on same pace.

I do escalations on regular basis ,sometime I need like 30 minutes to kill one rat cause combat probes are all around me.What is funny I get usually nothing from those escalations.Math is simple ,you loose one hour for small chance of getting something and with really high chance loosing your ship.

You can buff low sec exploration with higher drop chance more then with moving fully some DED sites from high sec.Since you dont lack risk there buff reward it is simple.

Stories how things will change if you nerf high sec income are just pile of crap.You cant force players to do something if they dont want to.If they choose not to go low and null ,they will never go ,no matter how much you nerf high sec.

Sadly this thread is going in direction herf high buff low,and I dont think St Mio wanted that.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#97 - 2013-03-07 10:41:26 UTC
Mnemosyne Gloob wrote:
My, this thread hase evolved.

I still sthink that too fast 'scanning' is the issue - call it DSP, call it cherrypicking, call it what ever you want. If the players would need more time to find a 4/10 (and lets face it that's what the discussion is about - i have seen people do the same to 6/10s in lowsec, they actually let 5/10s just sit there, i don't know why...), there would coincidentally also be less 't3s' in one site.



The price of the loot would go up, the value for doing the task per hour would remain similar, and the people doing the task would be having less fun, because any reduction in the rate of finding things will also increase the typical streaks of not finding things, and the number of probe deploys etc.

A fun solution might be to reduce the spawn chance of the drone deds (which are in chronic oversupply due to being everywhere and useless), and add a few mordus plexes that drop mordus shield loot. That way you could increase the supply of invulns and boosters by say 10% without concentrating that into gurista and angel hisec. should ultimately bleed the price down a bit.
Deus Vex
Phantom Psionics
#98 - 2013-03-07 11:17:47 UTC
As has been suggested already in this thread, the only useful fix for this issue is randomizing the sig strength of plexes. That returns plexing to the probers, and not the zergers. Seriously, how is dropping one DSP and scanning the 1 sig of the right strength exploration? Even people who bitterly hate probing can manage that.

PS. You must accept some blame St Mio for making it way too easy to hook up sig strengths to sites. I fondly remember the day when I had my own excel spreadsheet made up, trying to piece together what sig strength equalled what in my region of space, knowing i was doing something special that few others would've attempted.
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#99 - 2013-03-07 11:40:39 UTC
Spreadsheets don't kill sites! People do!
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#100 - 2013-03-07 11:58:25 UTC
Deus Vex wrote:
As has been suggested already in this thread, the only useful fix for this issue is randomizing the sig strength of plexes. That returns plexing to the probers, and not the zergers. Seriously, how is dropping one DSP and scanning the 1 sig of the right strength exploration? Even people who bitterly hate probing can manage that.

PS. You must accept some blame St Mio for making it way too easy to hook up sig strengths to sites. I fondly remember the day when I had my own excel spreadsheet made up, trying to piece together what sig strength equalled what in my region of space, knowing i was doing something special that few others would've attempted.


Because its important that probers get all the GSOs. Roll

Honestly if you are an enthusiast you will not lose your licence to probe by probing outside of caldari space, more than 15 jumps from jita, or in lowsec.

I have to say on the balance of things, I do not remember my first GSO, but I do remember my first sarpati enforcer.