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SP game breaking for new players. Please take your time to read this CCP.

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Hefty TheFirst
ALTimate corp
#101 - 2013-03-04 21:44:40 UTC
Filip Amatin wrote:
OP is just unexperienced player.

I started playing 3 months ago and I don't feel that there is any "SP wall"

I have fun, can do almost anything and I haven't even joined corp yet. (Will do soon)



You can do almost anything?
There is so many roles in eve if you trained to be able to do "everything" in 3 months you have one terrible skill list.
You might be able to mine or pvp that doesn't mean it's worth the amount of time you spend.
To be effective at even one role it takes a few months of training.
Then you are for example a 5/10 effective logistics support.
That's only one role to be a 5/10 and it would take months.
Hefty TheFirst
ALTimate corp
#102 - 2013-03-04 21:49:46 UTC
Prekaz wrote:
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
Prekaz wrote:
Hefty TheFirst wrote:


I will say it again this post is about new players and the 'SP wall".
Go read one of my earlier replies about roles. Maybe then you will understand what I mean :).


There is no "SP wall".


Since you missed it.
This is the wall that I speak of.
My point is this...

As the game progresses the "SP wall" keeps on getting bigger.
When you play a game you don't want to stick to one specific role and tunnel vision it to be good.
You want to experience multiple roles and see different sides of everything.
In eve you simply cannot do that.
Mining for new players is the worst thing I could imagine for them...
Sitting there mining with low skills when they are simply fueling the bigger players.
To be good at mining and actually breach the wall to be effective you need mining skills and refinery skills.
That's 2 totally different skill paths that makes the wall even bigger.
Now this is only an example... So say this new player gets sick of mining. Guess what?
You are stuck with mining since it would open up a third path where you have to now start training.
That makes the wall even bigger. You want to still train mining and refining to be good but now you want to pvp or run missions. That increase in roles makes the SP training 3x harder... You have to step back and see just how useless new players feel. Now this new player wanting to run mission has to train weapon skills, tanking skills,core skills and piloting skills. Each one of those paths makes the wall tremendously bigger.

I guess I should have explained my post better but it would have been the biggest wall of text ever.
I really hope that I am making sense.


I didn't miss it. What I'm asserting is that it's poppycock, and that, with respect to Eve and the many nuances of its interconnected systems, you are incompetent to the point that you lack even the vaguest notion of the depths of that incompetence.

This leads you to believe that you hold the solutions to what you, in your incompetence, have perceived to be problems.

As an example: You clearly have yet to grasp the fact that the opportunity cost inherent in the skill system is a major driving force behind the functionality of the Eve economy.

Hasn't even come REMOTELY close to dawning on you, yet, that homogeneity in skill training - which is really what you're promoting here - would, by definition, kill off a huge portion of economic incentive. When everyone can do everything, nobody needs anyone else to do anything. If it's trivial for me train a combat-miner-industrial pilot, why the **** wouldn't I do that? And once I've done that, why would I ever buy minerals on the market? Or ships for that matter? I can mine on my own. I can build on my own. I can fight on my own. What do I need an economy for, now?

The "problem" you are complaining about is a feature upon which the ENTIRE rest of the game is completely reliant. It is, literally, a requirement that not everyone gets to participate in every role on a whim. It was built that way, ON PURPOSE, and you - some arrogant, know-nothing scrub with a bought character - are sitting here trying to tell us that, for the good of the game, it must be changed to suit you and your impatient friends, without even a moment's consideration for why it was built that way, or what impact such a change would have outside of the tiny, insignificant portion of the game you're familiar with.

And for the love of god, please spare us any more of this insipid nonsense about new player retention. The game is currently enjoying the highest PCU numbers it has seen since the Great Monocle Debacle, so that argument is a non-starter.

Earlier, I was humoring you. I'm quite certain that, short of hopping in a capital ship, whatever the **** your friends wanted to do, it would not have taken them "years" of training to do it. Had you furnished an actual reply to the question (instead of copy-pasting the same ignorant, uninformed drivel over and over and over again), I probably could have given you realistic time estimates, as well as a host of intermediate activities for fun and profit to be done along the way.


I didn't have to read the second sentence to realize that you don't understand the whole reason for my post.
The four friends that I mentioned are all gone. All took different roles. All played differently.
All quit and gone because of one reason.
Either you are trailer trash or have no friends.
Since you took the cat out of the bag and started with the insults.
They were new players not old eve geysers...
Please get with the fact that this post is for new players.
Jou dom vokken poes.
Prekaz
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#103 - 2013-03-04 21:52:52 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:


I didn't have to read the second sentence to realize that you don't understand the whole reason for my post.
The four friends that I mentioned are all gone. All took different roles. All played differently.
All quit and gone because of one reason.
Either you are trailer trash or have no friends.
Since you took the cat out of the bag and started with the insults.
They were new players not old eve geysers...
Please get with the fact that this post is for new players.
Jou dom vokken poes.



That it's "for" new players does not make you competent or qualified to have an opinion on what should be done for them. You demonstrably have little-to-no understanding of what you're talking about, and no interest in learning.

You feel like we're all misunderstanding you, because you don't understand that, to the rest of us, you're the functional equivalent of someone emphatically insisting that, e.g., 2+2 = ponies.

Katarina Reid
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#104 - 2013-03-04 21:53:27 UTC
well if you want to do everything perfect it will take you around 20 years to train
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#105 - 2013-03-04 21:54:14 UTC
You're right OP. No helpful ideas in the last six pages at all, it's all hopeless, might as well give up now and cancel my subscription.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Orlacc
#106 - 2013-03-04 21:57:40 UTC
Zappity wrote:
You're right OP. No helpful ideas in the last six pages at all, it's all hopeless, might as well give up now and cancel my subscription.



Let's end this thread as there is no hope.

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
Filip Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2013-03-04 21:59:11 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
Filip Amatin wrote:
OP is just unexperienced player.

I started playing 3 months ago and I don't feel that there is any "SP wall"

I have fun, can do almost anything and I haven't even joined corp yet. (Will do soon)



You can do almost anything?
There is so many roles in eve if you trained to be able to do "everything" in 3 months you have one terrible skill list.
You might be able to mine or pvp that doesn't mean it's worth the amount of time you spend.
To be effective at even one role it takes a few months of training.
Then you are for example a 5/10 effective logistics support.
That's only one role to be a 5/10 and it would take months.


This.
Katarina Reid wrote:
well if you want to do everything perfect it will take you around 20 years to train
Memrox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#108 - 2013-03-04 22:02:15 UTC
All it takes is a little research and a couple of weeks of training and you can do ALOT. All these noobs need is a good corporation and voila.............. success for their chosen career!

Failing that google helps as well.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#109 - 2013-03-04 22:05:15 UTC
Orlacc wrote:
Zappity wrote:
You're right OP. No helpful ideas in the last six pages at all, it's all hopeless, might as well give up now and cancel my subscription.



Let's end this thread as there is no hope.

I reported this thread for lack of hope a long time ago. Apparently moderators are asleep or still clinging to hope or something.
Bridgette d'Iberville
Better Killing Through Chemistry
#110 - 2013-03-04 22:20:31 UTC
I'm not the only one hoping this is a really dedicated trolling thread, am I?

<- 4.8M SPs (half of those dedicated to the Destroyer/Battlecruiser changes) having the time of my life in FW Plexes while I skill up for actual PVP

"I considered a career in griefing, but then realized that I would never achieve the level of tear generation that CCP manages to do each and every expansion."
Vin King
State War Academy
Caldari State
#111 - 2013-03-04 22:26:55 UTC
While I disagree that it takes over a year and a half to begin doing anything, which is the OPs assertion, I do believe that the skill system is one of the most confusing parts about being new in the game. I don't know what I'd recommend to change it, because I still don't know why I can't fit all my T2 blasters on my gank cats.

Proud member of the New Order of HighSec
Scynner
South of Heaven Ltd
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#112 - 2013-03-04 22:36:00 UTC
I'm a new player (3million'ish SP) who just renewed my 2nd month sub. I love and hate the skill system. As a casual player I love that I'm skilling up offline. I hate how long some of the skills take. For me to get T2 medium guns will take around 18 more days (plus all the time already put in). It almost feels like i'm paying $15 to get my gun skill up and have to wait a month to do it.
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
#113 - 2013-03-04 23:19:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Candy Oshea
HI again OP,

I started with the floating in space tutorial, so it was even worse back then.

But at 2.9m SP, i grew a set & settled a C1 WH with HS static. (my mate dragged me into it, was very tentative at first, but he paid for the set-up pos so why not)

Was using a t1 fit harbinger with t1 drones BC was at level 2, gunnery was all level 1's, paid for by Mining.

Took us(my and a RL mate who i started with) about 30 minutes per site. but we mined gas, the ORE's were amazing, there was hacking etc, it was a nice little cocoon, the money we got from the sleepers paid for the fuel, & with alot of sitting and doing nothing i took to the forums for information.

SP is only perception, gradually the Harby became a t2 pulse fit, but the SP didn't make anything other than shooting "rats" Slightly faster. As i'm flying past players all the time, i don't know, nor care what SP they are, only if they are having fun. (and buying my crap in jita)

iCandy  - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#114 - 2013-03-04 23:21:01 UTC
Vin King wrote:
I've been playing for just over a month now, and I have to admit, the skill system is still a bit boggling and arcane to me. I can investigate simple questions such as "What does it take to fit T2 guns on my boat?" and get an answer and follow it, only to find out when I get there, I still can't fit T2 guns on my boat because I don't have enough cpu/power/smurfberries/etc. Trying to figure out what skills I need to do various things typically ends in me finding a guide someone wrote, and hoping it's somewhat accurate. It doesn't feel as if there's enough information presented to new players in the game as to what direction they should go in sometimes.

Basically confirming what I stated earlier about improving tutorials, though the day-to-day life of capsuleers could be improved too.

Example: a virtual fitting window like EFT, so you can fiddle in-game with ships and modules.
Haulie Berry
#115 - 2013-03-04 23:29:09 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:

The four friends that I mentioned are all gone. All took different roles. All played differently.
All quit and gone because of one reason.


That one reason: They, incorrectly, determined that it would take years to do what they wanted to do.

Since everything you have said about this subject is predicated on this false premise, how much credence do you feel your position deserves?
Storm Novah
Yada Industries
#116 - 2013-03-05 05:22:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Storm Novah
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
To get the core skills to an OK-ish level takes about 1.5 years.
That's like STANDARD level certs.

Actually I just did a training queue doing full standard certs for core comp, def and up to battleship class gunnery... 94d 17h 54m 18s without implants or remap. Getting into T2 stuff... that will take you to a total of 190d 19h 47m 2s... again without implants or remap. Thats concentrating on a single race of ships. So thats a bit more than 3 months without the T2 weapon skills. With T2 its shy of 7 months... not the 1.5 years you are claiming it to be. Find a skill planner like the one in EveMon or EveHQ and figure out the time it REALLY takes to train. And btw... before you say standard skills means everything you need to fly a ship well and not the certs... go READ the cert requirements... they INCLUDE all the standard skills and for elite certs takes about a year for a single racial ship line.

EDIT: Logistics would only take about 48 days of training for either shield or armor beyond what I listed above.

Hefty TheFirst wrote:
Also "subs are at an all time high".
You mean everyone has like 1-5 alts.
Speak to some miners and find out how many alts they have...

I would estimate 30-50% of subs are unique players.
Also the whole reason why people have alts is to train different skill paths.
This is the only game I have ever come across that people have this many alts.
I mean CCP promotes it. "start your sidekick".

Nothing wrong with having alts here but not EVERYONE has them. I for one have this character only although I have considered making an alt acct. If I do make an alt its not to train a different skill path... it would be for factional warfare only(which this toon is perfectly capable of doing). I simply choose not to mess up my standing with other factions.

Also... go try a few more MMOs... I have been playing MMOs for years and while some restrict your account allowance to one; many do not. I played one mmo for which i had more than a dozen accounts and the info for logging in more than 50 others (all friends accounts and their alts) as I wished or needed to for helping out my guild.

As for your initial questions:
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?

I see no huge problem... the game continues to grow and its not just because of people making alts.


Hefty TheFirst wrote:
Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?

You are making your case now and I assure you devs do read the posts and as they would be the ones to deal with a change like that its probably all you can do (although I doubt they would consider it).


Hefty TheFirst wrote:
This game is truly great but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?

Its called perseverance. Nothing is handed to you in Eve past the tutorials. Focus your skill training and you will be a competent pilot in a few months. Within 6 months you should have the ability to make enough isk to pay for your subscription with in game currency. I know this personally as I and my husband both did it.
Greatness shouldn't be handed to new players... it needs to be earned. Eve is considered a hardcore MMO for a reason. CCP once made a music video that you can find here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5xvkAPXB9c and its something new players need to learn. I dont like everything that goes on this game but I know its part of the game, accept it and move on.
The game is what it is... nobody should be given a shortcut just because they start later. Sorry.
Velarra
#117 - 2013-03-05 05:44:15 UTC
Quote:
Could you imagine starting to play WOW right now and have to grind through all of those expansions just to start playing the game at 90... Then the game only starts right?

I can imagine it. An experience like that would be great. The game would be what you made of it, it'd be all about your journey, with content all along the way up to level 90, and hopefully beyond lvl 90 by the time you reached it.

Quote:
So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?

Nothing.

Quote:
Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?

Give yourself time. There's no one you can really talk to about changing one of the fundamental aspects of the game.

Quote:
This game is truly great but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?

It really depends on how you define that "great"ness. What your expectations are and how much patience you have when you sit down to play an mmo.

Quote:
I truly want to see this game grow so help me talk to the right people.

Perhaps the "right people" are your friends? As much as yourself? Eve's a game that gives back as much as you put into it. It's like a garden that takes care, seasons, & yes, -years- to grow it into something -you- will enjoy. For the most part it's a cruel, harsh and consequence laden garden. It's equally a game where player skill, and social connections between players, - will be deciding factors in whether you enjoy the experience potential Eve makes possible.


And yet, i'll go as far as say you're roughly 50% valid in being let down and dejected. Except the issue isn't precisely an absolutely "new" player issue. it's one that resides in the 6-9 month play period and beyond. Yet to be fair, you seem to scrape at that notion in your initial post.

What you're missing? Is reading through QEN_Q3-2010.
Jensaro Koraka
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#118 - 2013-03-05 06:35:54 UTC
You don't need SP to have fun in Eve. Many a blinged out ship driven by a bittervet has fallen to a bunch of newbies in T1 frigates.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -H.L. Mencken
Frank Millar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2013-03-05 11:18:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Frank Millar
This is from another thread, but it shows the OP is terribly wrong:

Veda Idama wrote:
Ok, you win...

I've been having an unbeleive time!

Just as i was thinking of leaving, i made a quick and cheap incursus fit and flew into low sec for some plexing.

This time, i ran just before getting killed burning ship intact! I warped to a nearby station in the panic and managed to find some player wrecks to loot :)

finally, in my panic, I found myself in what I think was Caldari high sec space where I got podded and found out about kill rights :) Hopefully someone will buy mine!

I'm all subbed up and I got a plex (although I don't quite have the funds to sell it yet!) and I think i've realised a lot of what you all have been saying. This is a game of investing time. If i want a quick blast, i can go to sc2 for that. This is more about playing YOUR game and building up to what you want to do. I kept feeling it was all a grind to the next big thing but that's all part of the journey

I'm finding the certificates helpful and i'm having a surprising amount of fun working the Markets as well.

A little over the initial learning curve and the horizon is in sight

Thanks again

Veda

Bolded certain part for clarity. See, there are newbs who "get it".
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#120 - 2013-03-05 12:49:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Frank Millar wrote:
Bolded certain part for clarity. See, there are newbs who "get it".



proves nothing. The player couldn't do pro mining and refining and run a pro logistics 5 basi....which apparently makes him useless. Of course...there'd be medium to high sp players who apparently are useless. I am only logi 4. I don't have a strong desire or need atm to run a carrier. Ergo I don't have a strong reason to train the logi 5. I don't need to triage and on pvp ops and roams my repping duties go as far as running an offline mod in highs to run as needed. knee deep in enemy space and you rep your armour tanked mate after getting beat down to 10% armour with an pos repper in that high....he will call you anything but useless at that point. It ain't a logi...but its not a death sentence for him the next person he meets either.

Not sure if OP is baiting or serious. Hope its the former. . Either way I could say I started pvp 1 month and some change in 0.0 running inty scout detail. Quite a few battleships and such did not land in bubbles on my watch (I sometimes did that in the rough nights for them and gave the intel report of what was on gate before podding lol) . And he'd probably counter thats not what a noob may not want to do. And I'd give him that.

With the caveat there is no point to saying low sp can't do anything based on what is available to them they don't want to do. Options liked or not liked are still options. Take em or leave....but don't say they are not there.