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A disturbing trend

Author
Zsaryna Adrelana
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2013-03-03 17:40:29 UTC
Darius
You're aware how many slaves can be crammed into the hull of a Bestower or a Sigil right?
Be under no illusion, there are thousands of people on those slave barges. My personal feelings about slavery aside, I'm sure you can agree that by holing the hull and consigning the ship to the void, you're also killing the cargo. Passenger transport ships rarely have the capability to withstand weapons fire and keep their oxygen and atmosphere on the inside once gutted by artillery or eviscerated by Autocannon fire, why should a slave ship be able to hold its structural integrity and keep the cargo area habitable?

But I understand you might need to tell yourself a few strategically placed lies to help you sleep at night, that's okay, we all do.

Madam Rella
Paractically every single person in this thread, Amarrian or Matari has spoken out against the practice of killing slaves. In fact the only person in this thread who has advocated killing slaves by shooting up the transport ships carrying them was in fact Matari. Think on that before you unload another volley of vitriol in our general direction.

I do this for many reasons. I do it because I believe it is right. I do it because I will profit by it. These all consolidate into one reason: I do it because I can.

Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#22 - 2013-03-03 17:43:12 UTC
Zsaryna Adrelana wrote:
Darius
You're aware how many slaves can be crammed into the hull of a Bestower or a Sigil right?
Be under no illusion, there are thousands of people on those slave barges. My personal feelings about slavery aside, I'm sure you can agree that by holing the hull and consigning the ship to the void, you're also killing the cargo. Passenger transport ships rarely have the capability to withstand weapons fire and keep their oxygen and atmosphere on the inside once gutted by artillery or eviscerated by Autocannon fire, why should a slave ship be able to hold its structural integrity and keep the cargo area habitable?

But I understand you might need to tell yourself a few strategically placed lies to help you sleep at night, that's okay, we all do.

Madam Rella
Paractically every single person in this thread, Amarrian or Matari has spoken out against the practice of killing slaves. In fact the only person in this thread who has advocated killing slaves by shooting up the transport ships carrying them was in fact Matari. Think on that before you unload another volley of vitriol in our general direction.


The only people so far, besides myself, speaking about poor treatment of religious minorities have thus far been Amarrian.

I wonder; if i were to move to the Empire, and practice my religion openly, would as many Amarr rise in their windy wrath to prevent *my* persecution?

Sorry, but it needed saying.

Pot, ring ring, it's the kettle.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#23 - 2013-03-03 17:43:59 UTC
It should not take the Amarrians calling the tribes out on this for it to be denounced as wrong. This sort of thing simply should not be happening, and that it is is completely deplorable. There is no justification for the murder of innocent people. You do not have the right to decide for them whether they live as a slave or die free. Simply because you yourself have chosen that does not give you any right to inflict that moral choice on another.

Seida Surionen is absolutely right that this is a disturbing thing to have happen, and it needs to stop.
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2013-03-03 18:13:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Sepherim
Ava Starfire wrote:
Please dont degenerate this to name calling.

Frankly, this has little to do with Amarr. This thread was directed at my kin, not at the Empire.

I will defend my people's right to believe as they wish, even if it is not my choice, nor a faith I like, to my death.

I will not kill them.

I cannot speak for every other Minmatar.

I can only publicly state that I will regard anyone harming any of my people in the interest of any religion as my enemy, and I will treat them as I would treat any other religious zealot.


I apologize, captain Starfire. I should have let it go by.

Quote:
The only people so far, besides myself, speaking about poor treatment of religious minorities have thus far been Amarrian.

I wonder; if i were to move to the Empire, and practice my religion openly, would as many Amarr rise in their windy wrath to prevent *my* persecution?


That would depend on the amarrian. The AVCL, for example, asks for no conversion to join their ranks, while the PAUX does. I'm just using those examples because I know them better, but same could be said about different organizations and persons.

I, for one, wouldn't care who you worship, as long as you don't harm the Empire. While others would mind. The Empire is big, both in amount of space controlled and internal diversity. And, being a pod pilot, no one can force you to change your ideology, or force you into slavery in any case.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander

Darius Shakor
Second Shakor Clan
#25 - 2013-03-03 18:26:52 UTC
Zsaryna Adrelana wrote:
Darius
You're aware how many slaves can be crammed into the hull of a Bestower or a Sigil right?
Be under no illusion, there are thousands of people on those slave barges. My personal feelings about slavery aside, I'm sure you can agree that by holing the hull and consigning the ship to the void, you're also killing the cargo. Passenger transport ships rarely have the capability to withstand weapons fire and keep their oxygen and atmosphere on the inside once gutted by artillery or eviscerated by Autocannon fire, why should a slave ship be able to hold its structural integrity and keep the cargo area habitable?

But I understand you might need to tell yourself a few strategically placed lies to help you sleep at night, that's okay, we all do.


I am aware how many can fit in a Bestower. I have scanned a great many of them. More than you can count. More Amarrian slave convoys than days you have been certified as a capsuleer. I also know how many die when I split that ship open. I was not talking about how many are being carried, I was talking about those that are not saved by the emergency jettison systems on a ship.

As a capsuleer you should know about those, but I guess many are blind to them since piloting a ship has been simplified to little more than thoughts and pictures. It is easy to detach yourself from the true inner workings of your ship.

If slaves died in such vast numbers when I shoot down a slaver hauler, I would have reassessed my stance long ago. As I said before. Most of them survive. And I did not say that thousands of slaves are not transported on these ships. I said thousands of slaves do not die in such actions.

And what possessed you to think I was talking about keeping their ships intact and habitable, anyway? I said, and eluded to no such thing.

As for lies helping people sleep at night, you Amarr should know all about that.

Darius Shakor - Kacha

Vandeamon Writing Project - EVE Works

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#26 - 2013-03-03 19:17:36 UTC
Sepherim wrote:
Ava Starfire wrote:
Please dont degenerate this to name calling.

Frankly, this has little to do with Amarr. This thread was directed at my kin, not at the Empire.

I will defend my people's right to believe as they wish, even if it is not my choice, nor a faith I like, to my death.

I will not kill them.

I cannot speak for every other Minmatar.

I can only publicly state that I will regard anyone harming any of my people in the interest of any religion as my enemy, and I will treat them as I would treat any other religious zealot.


I apologize, captain Starfire. I should have let it go by.

Quote:
The only people so far, besides myself, speaking about poor treatment of religious minorities have thus far been Amarrian.

I wonder; if i were to move to the Empire, and practice my religion openly, would as many Amarr rise in their windy wrath to prevent *my* persecution?


That would depend on the amarrian. The AVCL, for example, asks for no conversion to join their ranks, while the PAUX does. I'm just using those examples because I know them better, but same could be said about different organizations and persons.

I, for one, wouldn't care who you worship, as long as you don't harm the Empire. While others would mind. The Empire is big, both in amount of space controlled and internal diversity. And, being a pod pilot, no one can force you to change your ideology, or force you into slavery in any case.


I think that she meant for baseliners.

But I doubt that both cases are comparable since the Republic preaches freedom of faith, where the Empire preaches only one religion.

But maybe some in the Republic also want it to be secular, minus the Amarrian faith.
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2013-03-03 19:29:10 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
But I doubt that both cases are comparable since the Republic preaches freedom of faith, where the Empire preaches only one religion.


A good point indeed.

Quote:
But maybe some in the Republic also want it to be secular, minus the Amarrian faith.


Certainly, we're seeing cases of this in the IGS over and over.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#28 - 2013-03-03 21:08:44 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
The rumors of "shunned people" are over-emphasized, I think. It does not happen often.

However, it is still a lamentable thing that it happens at all.

The Starkmanir tribe, in particular, have adopted, and adapted, the Amarrian faith. They are still my kin.

Freedom also does not mean "free to be just like we want you to be".

A noble sentiment.

Hailing from Nexus I am acquainted with many of your kin that yearn to live in the Republic.
Cynthia Gallente
GERAS INDUSTRIES
#29 - 2013-03-03 22:42:38 UTC
As someone who has been responsible for the murder of innocent individuals I have some strong feelings on this...

First
I'd like to say not a single day goes by where I feel the deepest remorse the the lives that I ended.
There is nothing that can ever be done to bring these people back, they are gone.
Some would say "They are in paradise now, and that is the ultimate pleasure" to them I say, you cannot be certain of this, so don't take that as fact.
When someone dies, all we can be sure of is that their bodily functions cease. To me that marks the end.

Second
I'd like to point out that slaves are people too. They have wants and desires. They even have the ability to think for themselves.
Imposing your will on a slave is the same as imposing your will on any other individual. It's just plain wrong, and if you disagree then you probably deserve all the misery you find in life.

Now... Killing a slave to free them. That is a bit ludacris. They die a slave, they will ALWAYS be a slave that way.
To free a slave you must FREE them. They must be allowed to make their own choices.

If you wish to free a slave, please persue your quest in a legitimate manner. Fill out the proper forms, speak to the right people.
Wholesale murder is nothing more than massacre.

Post with your lick™

Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#30 - 2013-03-04 08:19:07 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
There is a difference between fighting for freedom and fighting to quench a thirst for revenge.


You're close... but it's not a thirst for revenge. It's just a thirst for blood in general.

The first slaves were taken over seven centuries ago. No matari living in the Republic bears any relationship still living in the Empire or Mandate unless they can trace back their lineage over fifteen generations and claim that one ancestor was somehow enslaved and yet somehow the other was not. Anyone who says they can do that is lying.

So revenge? Revenge for what? People they've never met and who they have nothing in common with except some vague concept of a "bloodline" that apparently means more than a person's culture, upbringing, religion, or anything else that has shaped them & their families for over seven centuries.

In fact, these "bloodlines" matter more than a person's own desires or loyalties, because if you happen to have a drop of matari blood in you then as far as the Republic is concerned you're their property and they have the right to come to whatever planet you happen to be living on, kidnap you, and drag you back to the Republic and be made to serve their government.

In the end it's just trading one master for another.

But the important thing isn't freedom, it's resources. Human resources. Removing labor from the Empire's pool and adding it to the Republic's so they can have more soldiers, more workers, more labor for the effort of their eternal war against all things not-tribal and all people non-matari.

Revenge, freedom and liberation are just meaningless buzzwords to hide the truth: Bloodlust. A common enemy is the only thing that can unite the tribes and keep them from reverting back to fighting each other as they did in ages past.

Revenge, freedom and liberation are the excuses. War itself is the reason.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Gaer Anansi
Jack's Junkyard
#31 - 2013-03-04 08:45:49 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
No matari living in the Republic bears any relationship still living in the Empire or Mandate unless they can trace back their lineage over fifteen generations and claim that one ancestor was somehow enslaved and yet somehow the other was not. Anyone who says they can do that is lying.



Are you really so ignorant as not to know that the Empire only stopped raiding other nations and enslaving their citizens when CONCORD was formed? Or that illegal slavers continued to do just that while the Empire turned a blind eye up until Heideran VII put a stop to it? Or that millions of Minmatar returned to the Republic after the YC 111 decree, many of them leaving behind parents who were one generation shy of qualifying for freedom? Or were in religious or academic work but whose parents, brothers, sisters, children, were not?

Not to mention that some of us shucked our own collars.

I don't need to trace your breeding books back fifteen generations to find a family member living in chains.

All I need to do is speak my father's name.

Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2013-03-04 15:04:34 UTC
No, you're the one mistaken, captain Anansi. Your nation didn't exist until recently. We weren't raiding "other nations" when taking Minmatarr slaves, we were managing our own population.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander

Darius Shakor
Second Shakor Clan
#33 - 2013-03-04 16:42:45 UTC
Cynthia Gallente wrote:

If you wish to free a slave, please persue your quest in a legitimate manner. Fill out the proper forms, speak to the right people.
Wholesale murder is nothing more than massacre.


... Are you quite kidding me?

Legitimise slave trading. Provide them with means to continue slave trading and maintain their infrastructure. It never ends.

I doubt you fully understand why freedom fighters do what they do. The depth of meaning behind it. I am not talking about how, here, I am talking about why. It is to try and damage the whole practice, bring it down, prevent it from getting back up again as best as you can. So not only are the slaves you just freed able to remain free, but slave trading in the future will be crippled, preventing further slave trading.

Pay to free 1000 slaves and you free 1000 slaves, another 1000 enter the system behind them to fill the gap. Funded by you. Free them by destroying that transport ship and the slavers need a new ship, at their expense.

The violence is required to prevent perpetuation of this trade.

Darius Shakor - Kacha

Vandeamon Writing Project - EVE Works

Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#34 - 2013-03-04 16:49:34 UTC
Darius Shakor wrote:


Pay to free 1000 slaves and you free 1000 slaves, another 1000 enter the system behind them to fill the gap. Funded by you. Free them by destroying that transport ship and the slavers need a new ship, at their expense.

The violence is required to prevent perpetuation of this trade.


You do realize that the taking of slaves has been recanted by both the Empire and forbidden by CONCORD right? The only way new slaves come about is if their born. When you destroy a transport your destroying a commerce vessel.

Your killing the pilot, the technicians, the janitors, the cooks, the general crew who had nothing to do with slavery and never could own slaves, not a slaver. These are just people simply trying to make a living on the space lanes. As long as you continue a crusade of violence slavery will never end.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#35 - 2013-03-04 16:54:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Anabella Rella
Sepherim wrote:
No, you're the one mistaken, captain Anansi. Your nation didn't exist until recently. We weren't raiding "other nations" when taking Minmatarr slaves, we were managing our own population.


You are the one who's mistaken. Your ancestors invaded the sovereign nations of the Minmatar Empire and the Jovian Directorate. Just because your empire didn't choose to recognize them as sovereign entities didn't make them any less so.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#36 - 2013-03-04 17:11:57 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:


You're close... but it's not a thirst for revenge. It's just a thirst for blood in general.

The first slaves were taken over seven centuries ago. No matari living in the Republic bears any relationship still living in the Empire or Mandate unless they can trace back their lineage over fifteen generations and claim that one ancestor was somehow enslaved and yet somehow the other was not. Anyone who says they can do that is lying.

So revenge? Revenge for what? People they've never met and who they have nothing in common with except some vague concept of a "bloodline" that apparently means more than a person's culture, upbringing, religion, or anything else that has shaped them & their families for over seven centuries.

In fact, these "bloodlines" matter more than a person's own desires or loyalties, because if you happen to have a drop of matari blood in you then as far as the Republic is concerned you're their property and they have the right to come to whatever planet you happen to be living on, kidnap you, and drag you back to the Republic and be made to serve their government.

In the end it's just trading one master for another.

But the important thing isn't freedom, it's resources. Human resources. Removing labor from the Empire's pool and adding it to the Republic's so they can have more soldiers, more workers, more labor for the effort of their eternal war against all things not-tribal and all people non-matari.

Revenge, freedom and liberation are just meaningless buzzwords to hide the truth: Bloodlust. A common enemy is the only thing that can unite the tribes and keep them from reverting back to fighting each other as they did in ages past.

Revenge, freedom and liberation are the excuses. War itself is the reason.


Whether or not we're related to those taken by your Amarrian masters is of no consequence. All Matari have been irreversibly harmed by the thousand year occupation of our worlds and the systematic dismantling of our culture and ethnic identity. Our growth as a civilization and as a people was stopped for over a millennium as the Amarr attempted to remake us in their image in order to serve them and add to their labor pool.

As for your assertion that it's somehow Republic policy to force people to live here or to forcibly remove people from the Empire or its vassal state, your home, that's a damned lie. Show me any proof of this being official Matari state policy. You can't because it's not. Individual citizens or entities acting on their own initiatives do not make for official policy any more than the independent slave raiders, acting outside Imperial law, represent official Imperial policy.

I don't know what it would take to cleanse your mind of the bias and hatred you have pilot but please, for the sake of your mental well being, seek help. Your ceaseless ranting and perverse fascination with the Republic is unhealthy. We get that you had a hard early life at the hands of certain individuals but, that's no reason to blame everyone in the Republic. Your hatred is consuming you and has blinded you.

If you spent half as much time working to better the lives of those living in the Mandate as you do on the IGS slinging mud at the Republic who knows how much better things could be there.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Pax Thar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2013-03-04 17:27:08 UTC
Its easy to find freedom in death, and treat it with such contempt when you cheat it time and again. As Minmatar capsuleers we are the guardians of our kin, not their executioners and those who would fancy themselves demi-gods are my enemy. Innocents will die along the way... Minmatar, Amarr, Gallente and Caldari alike, slave or free man, will be taken by the fire of our guns. It is our responsibility to make sure that those lives are not taken in vain, and that we fight preserve the greater good for OUR people.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#38 - 2013-03-04 17:33:25 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Lunacy and racist claptrap.


I'm pretty sure we can all see quite clearly who's displayed the most racist, violent, and out of touch with reality point of view thus far in this thread.

Hint.

FInd the closest mirror.

PS. Anytime you feel like discussing your opinion of myself and my people face to face, you need but ask.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Darius Shakor
Second Shakor Clan
#39 - 2013-03-04 18:52:23 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:

You do realize that the taking of slaves has been recanted by both the Empire and forbidden by CONCORD right? The only way new slaves come about is if their born. When you destroy a transport your destroying a commerce vessel.

Your killing the pilot, the technicians, the janitors, the cooks, the general crew who had nothing to do with slavery and never could own slaves, not a slaver. These are just people simply trying to make a living on the space lanes. As long as you continue a crusade of violence slavery will never end.


You do realise that I don't care about some fancy half-way solution? Because it is not just about the loss of freedom for previously free people. I don't call myself 'anti-kidnapping fighter'. I call myself an 'anti-slavery freedom fighter'. So why in all the stars should I recognise slaves who are born slaves as being somehow legitimate?

And yes, I don't kill the slaver master when I blow up a ship. I destroy his infrastructure. Did I say anything different or are you trying to put words in my mouth, Caldari?

And the workers and flight crews of those ships work for the slaver, work in the system and are a part of it as sure as the ship itself. In short, a target.

If you think this is cold hearted then please do read back over my original post here to see my feelings on the loss of lives when I blow up a slaver ship. I do not like it, and have said as much clearly. I know what I am doing, and I am clear in my heart about why. The only other thing I can do is ignore slavery because morally confused people like you feel it is better letting a greater evil live in order to avoid killing a few people involved in that evil. Consent by silence.

Darius Shakor - Kacha

Vandeamon Writing Project - EVE Works

Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#40 - 2013-03-04 19:22:39 UTC
Darius Shakor wrote:

You do realise that I don't care about some fancy half-way solution? Because it is not just about the loss of freedom for previously free people. I don't call myself 'anti-kidnapping fighter'. I call myself an 'anti-slavery freedom fighter'. So why in all the stars should I recognize slaves who are born slaves as being somehow legitimate?


First and foremost, I was pointing out that when you buy a thousand slaves it doesn't imminently get replaced by a thousand more just like that. Those slaves have to be conceived, born and then brought to maturity before the ones bought can be 'replaced'. This is a process that takes years and an investment of time and money. What your doing is justifying piracy and death instead of using your brain to save lives.

Darius Shakor wrote:

And yes, I don't kill the slaver master when I blow up a ship. I destroy his infrastructure. Did I say anything different or are you trying to put words in my mouth, Caldari?


Not at all Matari, I'm clarifying what your doing, there is no need to put words in your mouth.

Darius Shakor wrote:

And the workers and flight crews of those ships work for the slaver, work in the system and are a part of it as sure as the ship itself. In short, a target.


Which is what? Fighting one wrong with another?

Darius Shakor wrote:

If you think this is cold hearted then please do read back over my original post here to see my feelings on the loss of lives when I blow up a slaver ship. I do not like it, and have said as much clearly. I know what I am doing, and I am clear in my heart about why. The only other thing I can do is ignore slavery because morally confused people like you feel it is better letting a greater evil live in order to avoid killing a few people involved in that evil. Consent by silence.


This is not at all the only thing you can do, its the thing you chose to do. Next time you think about calling someone 'morally confused' you might wait until you know a bit of their background aye?

Now there are other options, and destroying slave ships doesn't harm the slave industry. It never has, it never will. Reform from within is the only thing that will change things, and it certainly doesn't help that you make your people look like brutes.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb