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New dev blog: Ship-troduction: The Gallente Talos

First post First post
Author
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#141 - 2011-10-28 07:42:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
Fon Revedhort wrote:
So 90% aren't overpowered anymore. huh? What's changed?


CCP actually played her own game and realized that the blaster vents had a good point 3 years ago?

But hey they still didn't catch up to the concept that a close range ship actually need some sort of bigger tank/ehp than the long range ones that use kitting, making the Talos actually the 2. worse, only toped by the naga that doesn't looks useful for anything beyond super sized sniper hac with 425mm rails so far.
El'Niaga
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#142 - 2011-10-28 07:54:21 UTC
I think the Talos is a good pairing.

Now they just need a larger hull than the Celestis to have Remote Sensor Dampening bonuses and you could see Gallente fleets shine.
Cron Moonvexor
Halloween Mining Party
#143 - 2011-10-28 08:11:22 UTC
Quote:
CCP actually played her own game and realized that the blaster vents had a good point 3 years ago?


Let us wait the expansion on TQ and see who is who. I hope that theese attributes that we have on Sisi are not final, and they will be improved (or balanced ? =) ) on the upcoming masstests.

I'm very happy that CCP paid attention to gallente's problems. But oh my brain! - More tracking for blasters, less pg reqiurements for them - is good, but main problem is still here - inbalance between gall's speed and fire range.
Simple example - brutix vs hurricane: 1st can't do anything (except a bit drone damage) to kite'ing cane, which have higher speed and longer range. The same with Mega and Tempest.

In my view this has one good solution: a bonus to range of stasis web for brutix (and other blaster boats) that will make the ranges of web and disruptor equal.

This will not give serious advantage to Brutix especially against another Brutix =) But in case with kite'ing hurricane it will help somehow to go closer (~10km when a huri have a web too, but w/o such bonus), where cold shine of blasters already seen and become a reason of enemy's feet tremor .)

The only negative effect of this bonus is one, imho: it will be more problematic for frig-size tackers to keep such brutix from warpout. But I think it is possible to make this range bonus NOT WORK on frig-size (only on frig-size!).


Please, write your ideas about this, I'm always ready for constructive critics =)


P.S. I wish good luck to CCP in realization of their big plans this winter, and wish they rebalance not a single weapons but a whole ships as integral self-sufficient entity on a battlefield.
Burhtun
Burhtun Shipyards
#144 - 2011-10-28 09:02:27 UTC
Archetype 66
Perkone
Caldari State
#145 - 2011-10-28 09:10:30 UTC
Wow nice job. I like its nose now :)
Imryn Xaran
Coherent Light Enterprises
#146 - 2011-10-28 10:08:27 UTC
Crazy KSK wrote:
Jill Antaris wrote:
Well it doesn't really look like gallente, I would have loved the Aquilon hull ingame. Cry


I think the talos is neither gallente nor pretty and dear ccp do not put that web bonus on there DO NOT!
that bonus is much too powerful for such a cheap and expendable ship and should be reserved for ships much more expensive

also I think it would just be out of balance to give only this ship a bonus to e-war that essentially allows it to negate all the negative offensive bonuses of its ship class (bad tracking of large guns) which is supposed to balance the ship over battleships

further I think those ships should get their own class and not be battle cruisers they will be referred to tier 3 battle cruisers other ways anyway rather then battle cruisers


These new ships fit the definition of a battlecruiser perfectly. If anything the old ones should be moved into a new class call "Heavy Cruisers"
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#147 - 2011-10-28 10:12:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Crazy KSK
Cron Moonvexor wrote:
Quote:
CCP actually played her own game and realized that the blaster vents had a good point 3 years ago?


Let us wait the expansion on TQ and see who is who. I hope that theese attributes that we have on Sisi are not final, and they will be improved (or balanced ? =) ) on the upcoming masstests.

I'm very happy that CCP paid attention to gallente's problems. But oh my brain! - More tracking for blasters, less pg reqiurements for them - is good, but main problem is still here - inbalance between gall's speed and fire range.
Simple example - brutix vs hurricane: 1st can't do anything (except a bit drone damage) to kite'ing cane, which have higher speed and longer range. The same with Mega and Tempest.

In my view this has one good solution: a bonus to range of stasis web for brutix (and other blaster boats) that will make the ranges of web and disruptor equal.

This will not give serious advantage to Brutix especially against another Brutix =) But in case with kite'ing hurricane it will help somehow to go closer (~10km when a huri have a web too, but w/o such bonus), where cold shine of blasters already seen and become a reason of enemy's feet tremor .)

The only negative effect of this bonus is one, imho: it will be more problematic for frig-size tackers to keep such brutix from warpout. But I think it is possible to make this range bonus NOT WORK on frig-size (only on frig-size!).


Please, write your ideas about this, I'm always ready for constructive critics =)


P.S. I wish good luck to CCP in realization of their big plans this winter, and wish they rebalance not a single weapons but a whole ships as integral self-sufficient entity on a battlefield.




I think either web bonus is a very bad idea
the range bonus would leave no reason to fly a loki ever again (for me anyway) and has allways belonged to minmatar
the web strength bonus would not stop them from being kited at all its just gonna be overkill on gates
making it impossible for every ship that can be locked in time to escape
thats why those bonuses should be limited to more expensive ships like the ashimmu and vigilant

what ccp should do is in my eyes easy
just buff all gallente hulls to be the fastest by far
minmatar should need to use long range webbing ships in their fleet if they want to kite gallente
yes they would get rather powerful when used as shield fits BUT just give them the slowest turning rate off all

right now on TQ the brutix is only 145m/s fast while the cane does 165

since I don't like nerf bats id just go and make the brutix go 185 or even 200 if necessary to make a big enough difference

gallente blaster boats should just be unkiteable without a web or two
but they should be turning slow enough that a mini ship can just dodge em

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.

Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#148 - 2011-10-28 11:00:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Daedalus Arcova
Dare Devel wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
You do realize that all baster ships are a bit more agile and less massive now right?
And that blaster range has been addressed.

And secondly both drawings of are of the same ship, I dont see why you're comparing oranges to oranges.


Can anyone confirm this please?



Nova Fox is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Blaster boats are getting slightly better speed, and are becoming slightly less agile (bigger number = less agile).

Blasters themselves are getting a tracking boost (it's either 20% or 30%). Railguns are getting 10% better volley damage. Most hybrid turrets are getting reduced pg and cpu need, and they're all getting a reduction to capacitor use.

The changes on the Chaos build are welcome, but they still don't go far enough to address blasters' critical flaw - their lack of versatility. Blasters still have no answer to ubiquitous Minmatar kiting tactics in skirmishes (even on the edge of web range), and rails are still outdone by pulse lasers with Scorch in full-on fleet slugfests.

Until blasters get better damage projection and rails get better DPS (a 10% buff just isn't enough), the weaknesses in hybrids still don't come close to compensating for Gallente hybrid platforms' fragility, sluggishness, resist profile and fat-ass signatures. The defining concept of Gallente boats - their up close and personal facemelting potential - just doesn't have a real application in modern PVP.

Unless CCP buffs hybrids further, or starts from scratch with a whole new Gallente combat philosophy that actually works, Gallente blaster boats will still be underpowered in every combat scenario* except for a tiny niche which only exists in fantasy.




*ganks and docking games are not 'combat'
Kalot Sakaar
CragCO
#149 - 2011-10-28 11:20:53 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Dare Devel wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
You do realize that all baster ships are a bit more agile and less massive now right?
And that blaster range has been addressed.

And secondly both drawings of are of the same ship, I dont see why you're comparing oranges to oranges.


Can anyone confirm this please?



Nova Fox is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Blaster boats are getting their speed boosted, their agility nerfed (bigger number = less agile).

Blasters themselves are getting a tracking boost (it's either 20% or 30%). Railguns are getting 10% better volley damage. Most hybrid turrets are getting reduced pg and cpu need, and they're all getting a reduction to capacitor use.

In other words, Gallente hybrid platforms are still underpowered in every combat scenario, except for that tiny niche which only exists in fantasy.

(And no, ganks and docking games are not 'combat')


CCP Please tell me these stats are all wrong because this is depressing. The tracking bonus is long overdue but no increase to blaster range? Really? Less agile than the armored pigs already are? Let me see, warp in, even at zero on a fast moving target which is hard to achieve, and then by the time you lock and slowly accelerate the enemy is out of scram/web/gun range. This sucks. Plus when its time to GTFO since blaster boats can't fight aligned well due to range of guns, good luck getting out with a slow align time with this worse agility. Plus in orbit the increase in speed will be negated by the inability to hold the orbit due to worse agility.
Nur AlHuda
Callide Vulpis
#150 - 2011-10-28 11:28:21 UTC
So the Tornado was first in contest and was selected as the new t3 bc.

This was second place for gallente ship http://baranha.deviantart.com/art/Naru-Kami-Final-179403464 and its totaly different from the one in devblog however both were in same competition? Just trying to make sense out of it.
Cron Moonvexor
Halloween Mining Party
#151 - 2011-10-28 11:35:49 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:

In other words, Gallente hybrid platforms are still underpowered in every combat scenario, except for that tiny niche which only exists in fantasy.

+1. Sad but true
Wait, on the other side - very small number of pilots fly gallente ==> Gallente ships stays some kind of Exclusive xD

Ok, I agree w/ Crazy KSK that web range bonus will lead to overposted with on-gate-kills KBs.
Then I see 3 another ways (more or less bad):
- balancing the sensor dampening technology (to give no chance for that Hurri to shoot Brut at distance >10km) [rather good way]
- balancing speeds of gallente-s [so-so]
- increasing the range of blasters [the worst scenario]

Some more thoughts? )
Mersault
Blue Nine Industries
#152 - 2011-10-28 12:19:25 UTC
I am really liking what I can see of this design :)

Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#153 - 2011-10-28 12:29:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Crazy KSK
Cron Moonvexor wrote:

Ok, I agree w/ Crazy KSK that web range bonus will lead to overposted with on-gate-kills KBs.
Then I see 3 another ways (more or less bad):
- balancing the sensor dampening technology (to give no chance for that Hurri to shoot Brut at distance >10km) [rather good way]
- balancing speeds of gallente-s [so-so]
- increasing the range of blasters [the worst scenario]

Some more thoughts? )



id love sensor damps to get buffed (long overdue as well) but to make them useful on brutixes which has only 1 slot to spare
they would have to be extremely powerful.... i.e. one damp -> under 10km targeting range

I think the only way is to make gallente the fastest race
increasing the range of blasters would just make them obsolete and another kind of auto cannons


PS: pls ccp give the new 4 'BCs' their own class =(

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.

Zey Nadar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2011-10-28 12:40:06 UTC
Nur AlHuda wrote:
So the Tornado was first in contest and was selected as the new t3 bc.

This was second place for gallente ship http://baranha.deviantart.com/art/Naru-Kami-Final-179403464 and its totaly different from the one in devblog however both were in same competition? Just trying to make sense out of it.


Naru-Kami would have made an awesome battleship.
Integra Arkanheld
Andorra Paradis Fiscal
#155 - 2011-10-28 13:08:02 UTC
TorTorden wrote:
Day 1, winter expansion.
Day 3, HulkaGeddon



It seems that a new re-balancing of empire will be needed.
PVP in empire should be only during wars, and not all the time with suicide attacks.
Soon we might see FreighteraGeddon.
Cron Moonvexor
Halloween Mining Party
#156 - 2011-10-28 13:33:32 UTC
Zey Nadar wrote:
Naru-Kami would have made an awesome battleship.


He have another project Fujin - http://baranha.deviantart.com/art/FUJIN-FINAL-181896594
this one more exotic ^^
VaL Iscariot
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#157 - 2011-10-28 13:38:36 UTC  |  Edited by: VaL Iscariot
Blaster haters gonna hate.

We all know EVE is a solo pvp game, but there are those few underhanded types that fly with other people or (Empress forbid) alts that use these things known as "Skirmish Links." Even worse, use dirty tricks like "Overload" to increase the range of "Warp Scrambler" and "Stasis Webifiers"even further. These dasterdly tools shut down Microwarp Drives in a heart beat, slow it down to over half its cruising speed, and stop the loved by all Hurricane from kiting the brutish Brutix and weak and stupid Megathron. There have even been reports of, the so called, Rokh using said tactics! Curse those Gallente and Caldari scum! How dare the mighty Hurricane be brought low by such a noobish tactic! We're all well aware that the Hurricane is the only ship to fly in EVE and all other tactics are...

NULL and VOID Roll

:trollface:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#158 - 2011-10-28 13:41:18 UTC
It better cost quite more than the current average suicide ganker... What?

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Narjack
CragCO
#159 - 2011-10-28 13:43:13 UTC
I can't wait to hear the Gallente tears as this ship gets owned in fight after fight. How does CCP figure that a paper thin short range brawler is going to work? Lets see, Talos coming at me with MWD on and massive sig radius. Push fire on my weapons and keep burning away from him. Pop. He'll never get get to turn the webs/guns on because he'll already be primary and never close the distance in time. Yes, this ship will have some use at gate camps, in big blobs, and ganking. Great. Yawn. So do other more survivable Gallente ships now. OH, sure, you'll get a warp in by a cloaky now and then. It will happen to some, but hard to do if the kiting ships are always burning if they are doing it right.

When will CCP figure out that a short range brawler should be a shield tanked fast ship with very high resists. That works. Armor tanked ships need range, which is why Amarr does well with their lasers. But hey, I'm excited because these things will be on a lot of killmails as the victim until they get tired of dying and stop getting flown much like the rest of the broken Gallente line.

For the historical perspective, battlecruisers are supposed to be heavily armed but lightly armored. At the battle of Jutland a British Admiral forgot this fact and tried brawling his BC's versus the German main fleet and literally got them popped. Lightly tanked battlecruisers must fight at distance, hit fast and move or get destroyed. This Gallente ship will go the way of the HMS Invincible.


Bhaal Chinnian
#160 - 2011-10-28 14:03:12 UTC
Although I applaud the CCP artists 'effort' at implementing the original artists work, it falls short. Burhtuns' paintover is more of a credit to the original design.

Burhtun wrote:



Also, when looking at the stats of the Talos , why would anyone use these ships as 'in yo face' brawlers despite the relatively minor changes to blasters(blasters==spaceshotguns)? Their usage would be better served as snipers(with rails, of course.)

'A Good Plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed next week'-- George Patton