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5 faction web Rapier fit... opinions....
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Lasciel Anduriel
Lasciel Anduriel Corporation
#1 - 2013-03-03 04:19:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Lasciel Anduriel
Here's the fit:

3x 220mm Vulcans
Cov Ops Cloak

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive
5x Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

1600mm Tungsten plate 1
2x EANM II
Damage Control II

2x Medium Trimarks

Okay, what separates this fit from most armor rapier fits is the number of fairly pricey Federation Navy Stasis Webifiers.

My understanding is that fitting expensive webs is largely justified because the range saves your ship.

I can't do much damage with the autocannons, but frankly rapiers aren't going to do much damage with artillery anyway, so trading that meager damage for the 1600mm plate makes sense to me.

So what I'd want to do with this is sit cloaked in medium plexes in FW with a small gang. Wait for some other small gang to decide to engage us, and then decloak, and web 5 of them. If I did this a few times, I could hopefully convince the guys I fly with to fit for range, and hopefully we'd be shooting fish in a barrel at least until the enemy adjusts to the tactic.

Ideally I'd pair the rapier with a similarly fit Arazu so they'd be both webbed and scrammed.

Anyway, I've shown this fit to a few corp members, all people that I feel are generally very knowledgeable with fittings, and they seem to universally hate it, so I'd like to get an outside opinion. I can't help but think that they're just worried they're going to see a half bil Rapier kill mail and don't want me flying something like this for fear of that..
Morgan Torry
Arma Purgatorium
#2 - 2013-03-03 05:27:28 UTC
In theory it sounds like something you could do for fun...just remember you can only do this in larges/mediums. So your options are now severely limited. Maybe consider taking the T2 EWAR frigs for smalls...I actually do enjoy them.

A better tactic, I feel, is to bait in larger groups. Rarely do people engage on even odds so they'll be coming in with two or three more than they can see on d-scan. Although you're technically +1 you're not the damage of it but how you could win the fight:

Web down say two or three of their faster or more threatening targets. What this does is it makes the weaker of the ships separate (since most fleets run all-AB or all-MWD, but mostly always prop mods) from the stronger ships. By peeling them apart you are dictating the fight's terms and able to concentrate on the weaker threats while the stronger ships are going just a bit too slow. Save an extra web just in case a fast frig or nano cruiser comes bum rushing you so you can dual web him to a halt.

Something to consider, of course. Definitely an option....similar to the Celestis comps with improved cloaks I heard about last weekend. Uncloaking once the enemy fleet began to hit the acceleration gate (so the decloak timer runs down by the time they land usually, but it appears like you have fewer numbers). Send the drones and dampen choice targets. Surely you could use this tactic just as well.

Arma Purgatorium - What is Podded May Never Die
Ohishi
Apocalypse Reign
#3 - 2013-03-03 08:15:19 UTC
Considering that you can web from well over what most cruiser and down will be able to hit you from I don't see a problem with the fit. And if it is paired with an Arazu I would just fit a couple points and damps and you get the bonus of sig bloom from MWD and unable to lock from the damps. Or you could get a loki boost and just go straight up web and scram and laugh as 5 people are now essentially pinned to less than 100m/s from just over 30 km.

But honestly, do you really need the extra 4km web when talking about the range of webs on a Rapier? And with a skirmish booster? Seems like you would need range scripted sensor boosters to even target out to how far your webs would go with Fed. Navy webs.

Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought.

The Renner
Canadian Operations
#4 - 2013-03-03 08:38:41 UTC
Ohishi wrote:


But honestly, do you really need the extra 4km web when talking about the range of webs on a Rapier? And with a skirmish booster? Seems like you would need range scripted sensor boosters to even target out to how far your webs would go with Fed. Navy webs.


Nah, targeting range isn't an issue with recons, with V skills the rapier targets to 125km.
Seraph Castillon
In Control
Neon Nightmares
#5 - 2013-03-03 10:02:27 UTC
I can't count the number of times I've seen people derp their recons in a silly way. Mostly due to being overconfident. You don't want 400mil worth of webs on you when that happens.

That being said, yes, the fit would work very well if your fleet is fit around it.
Vyktor Abyss
Abyss Research
#6 - 2013-03-03 11:15:30 UTC
tbh you're looking at an expensive lossmail.

What will happen is a gang of 10-20 frigates dessies and cruisers will enter and you and friends might down 5 of them before the frigate ball makes it way to you.

You will then discover their you cant break their t1 logi cruisers, and your friends will warp out and leave you to die as you were the shiniest primary and are still tackled.

Your own FC will facepalm about the expensive lossmail despite it being his fault and the enemy will sniff your shiny and always primary you in future to boot.

Other than that sounds a good fit / tactic.
Lasciel Anduriel
Lasciel Anduriel Corporation
#7 - 2013-03-03 11:32:22 UTC
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
tbh you're looking at an expensive lossmail.

What will happen is a gang of 10-20 frigates dessies and cruisers will enter and you and friends might down 5 of them before the frigate ball makes it way to you.

You will then discover their you cant break their t1 logi cruisers, and your friends will warp out and leave you to die as you were the shiniest primary and are still tackled.

Your own FC will facepalm about the expensive lossmail despite it being his fault and the enemy will sniff your shiny and always primary you in future to boot.

Other than that sounds a good fit / tactic.


If faced with 10-20 frigs, I think I'd just stay cloaked at 65k off the warpin.

That's one of the great advantages of Recons, I get to pick my fights. If a perfect counter fleet warps in, I don't have to engage. If everyone in fleet is more or less fit for range, they don't have to either.

I'm sure I'll lose that Rapier eventually, but as long as I kill its worth in ships before going down I don't think I could complain. T1 cruisers are 30mil fitted. 5 are 150 mil. I'd only have to pull this trick off 3-4 times to come out even in the isk war, and that assumes that I never manage to catch any pirate or faction ships.

I'm definitely not going to lose it to a bad call from an FC. If you're flying a half bil isk ship in FW space, you team up with FCs that understand that you're not necessarily going to take all fights.
Vyktor Abyss
Abyss Research
#8 - 2013-03-03 13:37:05 UTC
My crystal ball has been wrong before, but I tell you what, mail me what happens when you do finally lose it. :)
Ctzn Snips
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-03-03 15:52:18 UTC
http://gallente.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15556929 Don't be this guy and warp into a plex thinking a vexor would be off the warp-in with his drones in bay...
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#10 - 2013-03-03 16:34:50 UTC
In my experience:

1 or 2 fast frigs is scary indeed. Lets say a Dramiel and maybe a Maladiction come burning at you going over 4000 M/S. 1 web will not slow them down so much, so you will need a second web each on them. while your monitoring those 2 the rest of the blob will be inbound, unrestricted. The Armor Rapier will feel extremely slow at that point.

In my opinion:

The 220's are just wrong. You need to shoot things BEFORE they get to you, when the transversal is less. If you get tackled, it's over.

I'm not criticising your approach. I like fits that think out of the box. I wouldn't fly that fit though.
SAJUK NIGARRA
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2013-03-03 16:58:45 UTC  |  Edited by: SAJUK NIGARRA
a. Get a cloaky loki. Then get 1-2 mates in repping prots or legions (you'll need to stay clustered due to **** rep range) and a cloaky prot fit for long tackle. Sure, it's even more expensive, but at least you have good survivability.

b. With that rapier you are gonna cap out after 2 min of burning away with mwd on and 5 webs on. I'd consider dropping one for a cap injector.

c. get a cloaky loki.

d. Rapier also has a very useful painting bonus which would help you fleet mates hit frig and cruiser hulls better, therefore you would in some cases double the dps of your fleet just by throwing a couple of bonused painters on the primary. You might want to consider that.

e. get a ... damn, I think I mentioned that already.
Lasciel Anduriel
Lasciel Anduriel Corporation
#12 - 2013-03-03 17:55:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Lasciel Anduriel
SAJUK NIGARRA wrote:
a. Get a cloaky loki. Then get 1-2 mates in repping prots or legions (you'll need to stay clustered due to **** rep range) and a cloaky prot fit for long tackle. Sure, it's even more expensive, but at least you have good survivability.

b. With that rapier you are gonna cap out after 2 min of burning away with mwd on and 5 webs on. I'd consider dropping one for a cap injector.

c. get a cloaky loki.

d. Rapier also has a very useful painting bonus which would help you fleet mates hit frig and cruiser hulls better, therefore you would in some cases double the dps of your fleet just by throwing a couple of bonused painters on the primary. You might want to consider that.

e. get a ... damn, I think I mentioned that already.


As much as I agree with the main thrust of your argument (I do need to get a cloaky loki) I can't fit t3's in to a medium plex.

So I'm stuck with a Rapier. Good news is that I don't have to worry about T3s coming into my plex to OMGWTFBBQ my half bil Rapier.

Honestly, I don't have the experience to understand just how dangerous AF and Pirate Faction frigs are to a Rapier. I'd think that with 5 Warrior IIs and webs on them, I should be able to eat them alive, but I haven't tried it so I don't really know.

As for the target painters, I tend to think that webs are more useful. Both make things a bit eaiser to hit, but webs have the additional benefit of making it very hard for your enemies to hit you (unless they're range fit, but who fits for range and then warps into hostile plexes?).

Lastly, I'd expect to be using this setup in a small fleet.

If things work out, and I can convince people to do it, I think a near perfect combo would be a RR vexor, 2 cloaked Rupture/Muninns and the Rapier and Arazu. People would just see the Vexor on scan, and they'd be wary that there are 5 WTs in local, but I don't think that would stop many people. If 5 or fewer guys without logi or range fits warped in they'd be pinned an d annihilated with no hope for a single kill.

Not only does that sound like a lot of fun, you wouldn't have to do it that often before you've paid for the half bil Rapier in WT kills.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#13 - 2013-03-04 00:49:16 UTC
Ohishi
Apocalypse Reign
#14 - 2013-03-04 05:12:18 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
1 Griffin.

Griffin isn't such an iwin button that people think it is. Even with max skills and rigs a griffin only jams ships bigger than a destroyer about 40% of the time. When you get on T2 cruisers or BS good luck, and recon ships have some of the best native sensor strength in the game.

Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought.

IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#15 - 2013-03-04 05:48:36 UTC
Ohishi wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:
1 Griffin.

Griffin isn't such an iwin button that people think it is. Even with max skills and rigs a griffin only jams ships bigger than a destroyer about 40% of the time. When you get on T2 cruisers or BS good luck, and recon ships have some of the best native sensor strength in the game.



I agree that it's not an iWin - but with a bit of luck it can still ruin someones day for very little cost.


https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
monkfish2345
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-03-04 09:48:34 UTC
you'd probably want an arazu/lachesis with you as well. otherwise your going to have all your friends wanting to fight at range. at which point targets will just leave.

keep in mind some MWD frigs will be faster than your rapier even with 1 web on.

Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games.
#17 - 2013-03-04 10:49:23 UTC
Personally, this is combining nano tactics and armour tanking, which i dont suggest.

Try using a huginn, use a pds, nano and dcu lows with anti-kin and extender rig, 3 fed navy webs, extenders, mwd etc. you will find it much more effective that trying to use a slow rapier that is designed for fast fighting.
Princess Saskia
Hyperfleet Industries
#18 - 2013-03-04 10:56:14 UTC
Why dont you just go the full monty and cloak 4 neutral falcon alts on grid?

 ♥ 
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#19 - 2013-03-04 17:01:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
The fit is too gimicky. Sure it would be useful in the exact situation you've described, but you have a ship that is absolutely gimped and useless 99.5% of the time. In the "ideal situation" that you described, a more conventionally fit rapier would do just fine.

Ohishi wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:
1 Griffin.

Griffin isn't such an iwin button that people think it is. Even with max skills and rigs a griffin only jams ships bigger than a destroyer about 40% of the time. When you get on T2 cruisers or BS good luck, and recon ships have some of the best native sensor strength in the game.



True, but the other day while watching some undock shenanigans, I saw a high-sp griffin jam out a moros 3 times consecutively.

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