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Dog fighting in EvE?

Author
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#61 - 2013-03-01 12:15:11 UTC
Always hated "dog fight" space sims. Most are inaccurate and use atmospheric flight tactics, which wouldn't work in space. Also when it comes to Eve people seem to forget the actual distances that are engaged in. Using manual gun controls doesn't make sense, when your target is 9+ miles away. Also your in a space ship, wtf would you use a manual targeting system anyways.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

Bob Nesta Marley
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2013-03-01 12:39:35 UTC
Incindir Mauser wrote:
I forget just where in the CSM notes it was but one of the CCP employees asked something along the lines of what the playerbase would think of adding "cockpit" view and or joystick support, eg, flight simulator style.


Dis be true mon?

Be de CCP askin? Not de CSM?
Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2013-03-01 12:42:28 UTC
Sir Substance wrote:
Incindir Mauser wrote:
Maybe this has come up before, maybe it hasn't.

I forget just where in the CSM notes it was but one of the CCP employees asked something along the lines of what the playerbase would think of adding "cockpit" view and or joystick support, eg, flight simulator style.


I think you should link that. It seems like an unusual thing for a CCP developer to ask, since it's common knowledge among not just the devs but the playerbase at large that the destiny engine updates only once a second, and changing this would be a fundamental rewrite.


This is the only important response in the thread.

He claims a CCP dev suggested it, he himself isn't suggesting it. Jumping to the RABBLE RABBLE ITS IMPOSSIBLE is kind of refuted if a CCP dev did, in fact, suggest it.

Hello, hello again.

Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#64 - 2013-03-01 13:29:46 UTC
Degren wrote:
Sir Substance wrote:
Incindir Mauser wrote:
Maybe this has come up before, maybe it hasn't.

I forget just where in the CSM notes it was but one of the CCP employees asked something along the lines of what the playerbase would think of adding "cockpit" view and or joystick support, eg, flight simulator style.


I think you should link that. It seems like an unusual thing for a CCP developer to ask, since it's common knowledge among not just the devs but the playerbase at large that the destiny engine updates only once a second, and changing this would be a fundamental rewrite.


This is the only important response in the thread.

He claims a CCP dev suggested it, he himself isn't suggesting it. Jumping to the RABBLE RABBLE ITS IMPOSSIBLE is kind of refuted if a CCP dev did, in fact, suggest it.



He has it linked at the bottom of page 2. But it wasn't a suggestion as more of a larger statement where he closed it with the question of 'would this even make sense in the game'. Selective reading comprehension took over.

There has been one point brought up many times that nobody has answered yet. Why would you limit yourself to fixed turret manual fire in a cockpit that surrounds you with a myriad of blind spots, especially if you are fighting somebody in 3rd person view with autotarget? You get in a fight with a cruiser and he's just going to do laps around you while you struggle to even get LOS on him. Makes no sense.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Pandora Barzane
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2013-03-01 13:48:28 UTC
star citizen says hi.
Pandora Barzane
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#66 - 2013-03-01 13:51:26 UTC
Jake Warbird wrote:
To the guy talking about Star Citizen, tell me how good this 'WASD' works when there are like 1500+ people on-grid at the same time.



maybe an shock for you, but lot of people in Eve really dont care much for large scale pvp.

Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2013-03-01 13:54:33 UTC
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
There has been one point brought up many times that nobody has answered yet. Why would you limit yourself to fixed turret manual fire in a cockpit that surrounds you with a myriad of blind spots, especially if you are fighting somebody in 3rd person view with autotarget? You get in a fight with a cruiser and he's just going to do laps around you while you struggle to even get LOS on him. Makes no sense.


Titans suddenly require 30 people controlling weapons on them. Heh.

Thanks for the heads up on the link, too.

Hello, hello again.

Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#68 - 2013-03-01 14:17:26 UTC
(I do not personally think that SC is going to be a very good game.)

People who throught ToR or STO would compete with EVE were trolls. People with a half a brain knew they were nothing like EVE, and those people weren't meant for EVE anyways.

SC is an "EVElike MMO". Dismissing it would be foolish, it's supposed to be the same game in principle.

Anyone can make a game with space ships. CCP is the only one that has a game with space ships that offers a PvP based economy, and ability to own space.

That is an incredibly thin line to cross, and it's naive to think that is not what drives EVE's success.


There was a mainstream version of Everquest, it was called world of warcraft.

You guys think there isn't a mainstream version of EVE?
If SC is able to be the game they say it will be, it will indeed attract more people, and a lot of them will be EVE players. It's going to be a much more PvE friendly version of EVE, and those people won't give a **** if there's a disconnect between them and the PvP. I think the games going to be EVE with a 100% safe high sec and corp controlled null sec.
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#69 - 2013-03-01 14:27:37 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I think the games going to be EVE with a 100% safe high sec and corp controlled null sec.



Depending on what server you are on most definitely.

I just ran through the FAQ. It is not going to be marketed as an mmo. They will promote private servers and modding. Or you can choose to play in single player mode.

There is nothing wrong with any of that and you are completely right, I can totally see 1000 servers with little groups of friends doing pve gunfighting missions while larping as the last starfighter.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Alara IonStorm
#70 - 2013-03-01 15:06:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Dogfighter Space Games always advertise the exact same way.

EVE (Labeled as other space games Roll) is so slow, this new game is a dynamic, full of adrenaline and you actually have control of your ship no point and click...

So I watch the first gameplay video and behold, you are in a 15 meter long craft with a bubble canopy and atmosphere wings with two forward facing guns fighting at 2 kilometer ranges. Like it somehow obsoletes EVE and all EVE players are secretly waiting to fly an F-16 with a star backdrop. It is like they think this Space Fighter game idea has never existed before now and as soon as all the EVE players realize they can trade in their 400 meter Battlecruiser for a 15 meter Jet they will run in droves. Also hey if you happen to want a giant Battleship you can control a single turret, pretty much the same thing...

...I doubt any EVE player was like I wanted a Fighter Jet game but got confused and grabbed EVE.

Are EVE Players going to cancel all their years invested EVE, leave their online friends as well as all the assets they built to play the latest game with a different genre set in star backdrop and little else in common, doubt it. Most people who play EVE (Shock) actually like the game. At most Star Citizen will be a supplemental game to their EVE time (Like every WoW Killer was to WoW gamers) like Black Prophecy was to mine before I realized it was rubbish and spammed the uninstall.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#71 - 2013-03-01 15:08:10 UTC
Dark Reignz wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Dark Reignz wrote:
Skorpynekomimi wrote:
No.
That is not what EVE is about. EVE is about COMMANDING the ship, not flying it. If you want dogfights, go play a flight sim.


I guess quite a few people will be doing just that in 2014 :

Star Citizen. That is going have a lot of what you see in eve but with the added extra of it being more of a sim with proper ship controls, upgrades the lot.

Made $2m from Kickstarter and, there are also live subscription packages and booster being sold which has made them $6m, so it already has a massive player base and is not even due for release until next year maybe.

Totally Player driven single shard world which will change and mould around the player base.

Exploration (new systems added and named after the explorers)

Pirating

Faction type warfare

trading

mining

Mission Running

PVP

Proper combat simulation with WASD / Joystick/pad controls and thats where the real skill is at! New content will be added weekly or bi weekly because they hate the idea of working to annual bi annual explansions.

This game is going to have it all. And from what I've read and the videos released it looks. Awesome.

http://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/star-citizen/


Two things.

1) The game is basing itself on newtonian physics. It will be interesting sure, but combat won't be nearly as fun as EVE's in that model. If you don't know why, go take a physics class or wait till it is released. Combat will be wonky as hell.

2) It certainly won't be the first game to promise the world. So far, no game to have ever done that has released without at least some disappointment. Experienced developers NEVER make so many grand promises precisely because they know half of it will have to be cut or sloppy, which will do nothing but disappoint the people expecting it. Well, everyone except Peter Molyneaux. He's just really bad at keeping his mouth shut and imagination in his pants.


Yeah and whats fun about: Right Click "lock Target, Right click Orbit at???, Right click or F1 fire at Target... especially as the other poster says, when its 1500 players and TiDi kicks in ? It the same process as above but with "Go smoke a *** and come back to the 2nd cycle of weapon fire and mabye some more right clicks.....

All I'm saying is that type of control and the game itself being a space type game that has temendous player support to say its still in development. Regardless of the revenue that CCP now has to play with due to there own unique success, SC is still doing well for a start up venture.

No matter what any of us says, it may not live up to the hype but It could well become a direct competitior to eve....


2 million dollars is freaking chump change designing a game that large.

SW-TOR had a $200 million budget and look how that turned out.

Seriously. Star Citizen will be either a disappointment or will have a development schedule comparable to Half Life 3 (which, by the way, is less ambitious and has a far larger budget, alongside the best talent in the industry).
Orlacc
#72 - 2013-03-01 15:42:03 UTC
WTF is "Decent?"

I used to play Descent. EVE is a different game I now play.

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."

Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#73 - 2013-03-01 16:01:47 UTC
Orlacc wrote:
WTF is "Decent?"



It's a space game where you play like a Sir.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Prekaz
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#74 - 2013-03-01 16:26:20 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
(I do not personally think that SC is going to be a very good game.)

People who throught ToR or STO would compete with EVE were trolls. People with a half a brain knew they were nothing like EVE, and those people weren't meant for EVE anyways.

SC is an "EVElike MMO". Dismissing it would be foolish, it's supposed to be the same game in principle.




Hmmm...

Star Citizen FAQ wrote:
Is Star Citizen an MMO?
No! Star Citizen will take the best of all possible worlds, ranging from a permanent, persistent world similar to those found in MMOs to an offline, single player campaign like those found in the Wing Commander series. The game will include the option for private servers, like Freelancer, and will offer plenty of opportunities for players who are interested in modding the content. Unlike many games, none of these aspects is an afterthought: they all combine to form the core of the Star Citizen experience.


I hope SC is a fun space game, but anyone who thinks this is going to be a substitute good for Eve is every bit as delusional as the ToR/STO "trolls" were.
Texty
State War Academy
Caldari State
#75 - 2013-03-01 18:01:20 UTC
Just add an "align to camera" function & short cut and I'll be pretty happy.
Lord Fudo
Doomheim
#76 - 2013-03-01 18:20:35 UTC
This is what I have been wanting for frigate combat since I first started playing eve. Id also like for a carrier class ship that relies on player flown fighters. So one pilot uses the carrier, his fleet mates who fly the fighters deploy from the carrier and do their thing. This would add a great element of gameplay. Carriers with AI fighters and carriers with player flown fighters. That would be awesome.

Incindir Mauser wrote:
Maybe this has come up before, maybe it hasn't.

I forget just where in the CSM notes it was but one of the CCP employees asked something along the lines of what the playerbase would think of adding "cockpit" view and or joystick support, eg, flight simulator style.

Not much really came up in that regard. Made me a little sad.

Personally I like those kinds of games, particularly Decent: Freespace 1&2 from back in the day.

How would this work with EvE? EvE plays very much differently from this. So it got me thinking about how flight sim style of play could work well with EvE.

I would limit it to a handful of ships that fit that kind of play. Frigates, Fighters, and Fighter Bombers.

Some sort of functionality would need to be added to switch modes from standard flight mode to cockpit view, or a Starfox style third person view. Your guns and missiles would get locked forward and only able to fire and target in that direction. Guns and unguided missiles would essentially be "dumb fire" or have limited tracking ability only in front of the ship. Guided missiles would be fire-and-forget much like they are now. Perhaps a small or modest boost to damage and range to turrets for fighting in this mode?

Overheating and all that would still be the same, module activation and cooldowns would still be the same, ammo counts as well. Other modules would simply work the same way as they do now, like Target Painters, Sensor Disruptors, Neuts, prop mods, etc. 360 degree of affect, range, falloff all that jazz.

Carriers could have some new play modes added to them, too. Pull up next to a carrier, "dock" with it in some manner and take over a fighter or fighter bomber and wreak havok. Player controlled individual fighters and fighter bombers would get a good boost to range and damage for being independantly controlled. If it gets blapped, launch another and get back into the fight!

This could even extend further to dreads where when you hit seige you go to a "turret" view and take direct control of your turrets and blap stuff a la B-52 belly-gunner style.

#popcorn

Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#77 - 2013-03-01 18:30:05 UTC
Lord Fudo wrote:
Carriers with AI fighters and carriers with player flown fighters. That would be awesome.




I'll take the Carriers with AI fighters. They won't afk as often, they're guaranteed to be there when you log in, and they won't do stupid **** on their own accord.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Leper ofBacon
HELP GRANDMA SMASH HER LEGS IN
#78 - 2013-03-01 19:02:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Leper ofBacon
I play eve because it's the best in it's genre and likewise with any other type of game. I think when you start to make one type of game into other types of games piecemeal you will end up with an inferior product, wasted resources, and the risk of an overall embarrassment.

Also, eve is so unsuited to that type of gameplay in every way that I can't believe anyone would ever consider it. Think about every aspect of combat in the game and then consider what advantage might be gained from a cockpit plioting feature. The list of negatives would be endless.
Radamant Nemess
Federal Navy Academy
#79 - 2013-03-01 19:42:11 UTC
Jake Warbird wrote:
To the guy talking about Star Citizen, tell me how good this 'WASD' works when there are like 1500+ people on-grid at the same time.


You tell me how can WoW or GW2 have 15000+ people mashing WASD AND mouse clicking? At the same time.

I believe that OP had in mind bringing some actual skill to combat, but in this game no skill is needed, just bigger team, group, blob. Oh, and F1 - F2 combo ofc.

i can fail at any speed you like

Lord Fudo
Doomheim
#80 - 2013-03-01 20:18:56 UTC
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Lord Fudo wrote:
Carriers with AI fighters and carriers with player flown fighters. That would be awesome.




I'll take the Carriers with AI fighters. They won't afk as often, they're guaranteed to be there when you log in, and they won't do stupid **** on their own accord.


So you dont currently rely on other players in your fleet to perform their job whether it be ewar, logistics, tackle etc? It would be no different, except that the player flown fighters would be better piloted by a better crew than the current A.I. drone control mechanics. If you have an issue with fleet mates going afk during an engagement then you are flying in the wrong fleet.