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Praetor vs Ogre
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Sunken Fear
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2011-10-27 03:05:43 UTC
recently a corp member of mine told me i should stop using praetor drones with my domi against blood raiders because the damage modifier was much higher on ogres even though they are weaker against em damage. is this true? should i be using ogres?
Goose99
#2 - 2011-10-27 03:10:08 UTC
Sunken Fear wrote:
recently a corp member of mine told me i should stop using praetor drones with my domi against blood raiders because the damage modifier was much higher on ogres even though they are weaker against em damage. is this true? should i be using ogres?


Yes. Applies to small/med/heavy drones, but not sentry/fighters.
Sunken Fear
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2011-10-27 03:14:46 UTC
so are praetors just useless?
People's Republic ofChina
My Other Capital Ship is Your Mom
#4 - 2011-10-27 03:18:34 UTC
Sunken Fear wrote:
so are praetors just useless?



Yup. Along with the rest of the Amarr non Fighter drones.
Sunken Fear
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2011-10-27 03:19:12 UTC
wow i feel like ive wasted a lot of time with praetor drones!!!
Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#6 - 2011-10-27 04:16:26 UTC
Sunken Fear wrote:
wow i feel like ive wasted a lot of time with praetor drones!!!


Well, you should, since you have. Straight
vorneus
Hub2
#7 - 2011-10-27 11:37:44 UTC
The only use for Praetors are when you're shooting a target that has a massively lower EM resist than its thermal resist (or any other resist).

Take for example a Nighthawk without any EM shield hardeners/rigs but a high racial thermal resistance; in that scenario you'd be better off with Praetors, but other than that you'll almost always be better off shooting at the second weakest resist with a higher dmg drone.

This applies to all NPC situations that I'm aware of.

-Ed

This one time, I like, totally did some stuff.
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2011-10-27 14:12:55 UTC
Sunken Fear wrote:
wow i feel like ive wasted a lot of time with praetor drones!!!


Don't feel too bad. You'd need to know a bit more about them to get a better idea of what you've been using. As most can tell you, damage isn't the only number to look at with respect to weapons systems. There are other stats you may find of interest.

Praetor has the following advantages over the Ogre.

135% MWD speed.
120% orbit speed (at target, this is how fast they orbit)
140% tracking speed (for hitting stuff)

So, whereas you weren't using the heaviest hitters, you are using the second fastest, second best tracking drones out there. (beserkers have better tracking and speed).

So they reach shoot range faster and hit things easier than all but beserkers but hit decently - just with a fairly lame damage type.
Zanthosistine
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2011-10-27 18:42:33 UTC
T2 sentries better than either IMHO (especially for a domi pilot which should be sentry rigged))
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2011-10-27 20:10:32 UTC
Praetors speed advantage may make it better than Ogres, I found Praetors best to use Vs Sansha BSs (Vs other heavies). And if you have Rogue Drone rats, then there is nothing better than Amarr drones

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Lili Lu
#11 - 2011-10-27 21:58:54 UTC
People's Republic ofChina wrote:
Sunken Fear wrote:
so are praetors just useless?



Yup. Along with the rest of the Amarr non Fighter drones.


Not entirely true. Curator II are worth using if you need range and the target is em weak. Garde IIs don't have much range, even though tracking and damage are better. I usually figure if the target is 45km or more then I will use curator and switch to garde if they get closer.
Zanthosistine
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2011-10-27 22:08:48 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
People's Republic ofChina wrote:
Sunken Fear wrote:
so are praetors just useless?



Yup. Along with the rest of the Amarr non Fighter drones.


Not entirely true. Curator II are worth using if you need range and the target is em weak. Garde IIs don't have much range, even though tracking and damage are better. I usually figure if the target is 45km or more then I will use curator and switch to garde if they get closer.



Sentries - she speaks wisdom
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#13 - 2011-10-28 07:16:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Rip Minner
Ya realy if you are in a Domix you should have atleast 1 Sentery dmg rig and be using Sentery's if your not flying towards a gate.

Now I can tell you first hand that normaly EM drones and Therm drones work out to do right around the same dmg to EM weak NPC with one major differnts. The EM drones are faster at geting to the target and they get fewer glacing shots. Some can easly argue that can be made up for with Drone tracking links and thats true to a point becouse all though the Therm drones are geting fewer glacing shots but the same it true of the EM drones as they now get fewer glancing shots. So you see every drone mod you can add to your ship to help the Therm drone to hit more offten with fewer glancing shots or with drone speed mods also do's the same for the EM drones.

So here's the score. The EM drones are better then Therm drones on EM/Therm weak NPC's. How ever Therm drones are the best drones for Kin/Therm or Therm/Kin NPC just becouse Kin drone dmg is that weak. And realy that should be looked at. But Kin drones are faster then Therm drones but there speed in this cast just dont make up the huge dmg gap in there raw dmg.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.
Baraka Saibot
Wobbling Frog Inc
#14 - 2011-10-28 11:33:02 UTC
Rip Minner wrote:
How ever Therm drones are the best drones for Kin/Therm or Therm/Kin NPC just becouse Kin drone dmg is that weak. And realy that should be looked at. But Kin drones are faster then Therm drones but there speed in this cast just dont make up the huge dmg gap in there raw dmg.


Not true, Caldari combat drones have more speed, tracking and shield AND do more damage to kinetic weak NPC(Serpentis, Guristas, Caldari etc.) rats than the Gallente drones.
People's Republic ofChina
My Other Capital Ship is Your Mom
#15 - 2011-10-28 15:58:24 UTC
Baraka Saibot wrote:
Rip Minner wrote:
How ever Therm drones are the best drones for Kin/Therm or Therm/Kin NPC just becouse Kin drone dmg is that weak. And realy that should be looked at. But Kin drones are faster then Therm drones but there speed in this cast just dont make up the huge dmg gap in there raw dmg.


Not true, Caldari combat drones have more speed, tracking and shield AND do more damage to kinetic weak NPC(Serpentis, Guristas, Caldari etc.) rats than the Gallente drones.



Correct, it is good to match damage type for all drones except EM light/med/heavy. Lazy people use hobs for everything and they especially suffer for it against Angels because their thermal resist is pretty substantial, and the T2 NPC frigs have huge thermal resist. I carry a set of hobgoblins and warriors in my mach's hold and use explosive against angels and hobs against everything else since I get very little Guristas. I don't use medium drones, they don't contribute anything substantial since my autocannons do excessive amounts of damage leaving little time for them to contribute. Slower ships and drone boats obviously would follow different advice but for ships that have huge gank and good tracking, I would recommend forgoing medium and above altogether for missioning and just carry different types of lights to match optimal damage.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#16 - 2011-10-28 16:13:49 UTC
Basically, if thermal is a rat's secondary damage weakness, it's usually a toss-up (in pure damage terms) whether you want to use the “right” drone type or just go for the high-damage Gallente drones. However, in most of those cases, the right drone will offer some other advantage that makes them a better choice than the Gallente ones — higher speed, better tracking, more appropriate HP, whathaveyou…

…and of course, if thermal is their primary weakness, then thermal drones are the best option. Conversely, if thermal is the third or fourth damage type of choice (i.e. first or second highest resist) then their additional raw damage output isn't enough to give them any advantage.

The problem with EM-weak enemies is that they universally have thermal as their secondary weakness, so thermal drones are already a decent option, and in addition to that, the EM drones have horrid damage modifiers, and not much in the way of additional benefits, so they are pretty much alone in breaking the basic rule mentioned above.

Even so, thermal is common enough a weakness that, if you don't want to be bothered with (or for logistical reasons simply can't) switching out drones all the time to match the enemy rats, then the Gallente drones are universally applicable and a good “lazy” choice.
Goose99
#17 - 2011-10-28 16:18:53 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Basically, if thermal is a rat's secondary damage weakness, it's usually a toss-up (in pure damage terms) whether you want to use the “right” drone type or just go for the high-damage Gallente drones. However, in most of those cases, the right drone will offer some other advantage that makes them a better choice than the Gallente ones — higher speed, better tracking, more appropriate HP, whathaveyou…

…and of course, if thermal is their primary weakness, then thermal drones are the best option. Conversely, if thermal is the third or fourth damage type of choice (i.e. first or second highest resist) then their additional raw damage output isn't enough to give them any advantage.

The problem with EM-weak enemies is that they universally have thermal as their secondary weakness, so thermal drones are already a decent option, and in addition to that, the EM drones have horrid damage modifiers, and not much in the way of additional benefits, so they are pretty much alone in breaking the basic rule mentioned above.

Even so, thermal is common enough a weakness that, if you don't want to be bothered with (or for logistical reasons simply can't) switching out drones all the time to match the enemy rats, then the Gallente drones are universally applicable and a good “lazy” choice.


Gallante light/med/heavy actually do less dmg than Caldari drones to both Guristas and Serpentis after resists are taken into account. Gallante drones are only best against Amar racial rats. Caldari drones are best against 2 racial rats, Minmatar one race, and Amar nothing. If you only carry one set of drones, make it Caldari.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#18 - 2011-10-28 16:29:24 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Gallante light/med/heavy actually do less dmg than Caldari drones to both Guristas and Serpentis after resists are taken into account. Gallante drones are only best against Amar racial rats. Caldari drones are best against 2 racial rats, Minmatar one race, and Amar nothing. If you only carry one set of drones, make it Caldari.


Not quite. Gallente drones are a better choice for all-in-one because they are at least adequate against everything (and Caldari drones really aren't against Amarr rats). Gallente drones also have a stealth boon of hitting a mysterious low resist on Angel elite frigates. So: if you want to hit everything fairly well, Gallente drones. If you want to hit most things slightly better but some almost not at all, Caldari.
Goose99
#19 - 2011-10-28 16:52:54 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Gallante light/med/heavy actually do less dmg than Caldari drones to both Guristas and Serpentis after resists are taken into account. Gallante drones are only best against Amar racial rats. Caldari drones are best against 2 racial rats, Minmatar one race, and Amar nothing. If you only carry one set of drones, make it Caldari.


Not quite. Gallente drones are a better choice for all-in-one because they are at least adequate against everything (and Caldari drones really aren't against Amarr rats). Gallente drones also have a stealth boon of hitting a mysterious low resist on Angel elite frigates. So: if you want to hit everything fairly well, Gallente drones. If you want to hit most things slightly better but some almost not at all, Caldari.


Gallante drones are best for Amar racial rats, adequate for Caldari and Gallante, but inadequate for Minmatar.

Caldari drones are best for both Caldari and Gallante, adequate for Minmatar, but inadequate for Amar.

All in all, it still seem a bit better.

As for mysterious thermal hole, only 2 Angel frig rats that have them, Viper and Webifier, which has 30%/25%(shield/armor) for thermal, 50/10 for exp, and 45/25 for kin. Inconsistent resists in frig rats are hardly unique to Angels. Sansha berserker and demon, Blood disciple and wraith, all have 50% em armor resist but 30% kinetic. The common trait is that they're all webbing frigs.