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Well the mining community in high sec has come full circle.
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Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#41 - 2013-02-26 17:10:36 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
actually, as a solo miner, there is. most corps offer orca bonuses.

the problem is, once you have about 3 accounts or more, inevitably one will be your own orca and at that point, nobody can offer you anything that is worth giving up war dec immunity for.


there is that I suppose. I refuse to multibox mining though.

forums.  serious business.
Dave stark
#42 - 2013-02-26 17:14:45 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
actually, as a solo miner, there is. most corps offer orca bonuses.

the problem is, once you have about 3 accounts or more, inevitably one will be your own orca and at that point, nobody can offer you anything that is worth giving up war dec immunity for.


there is that I suppose. I refuse to multibox mining though.


then you have plenty of reason to join a player corp, however conversely i'll wager you're one of few miners that doesn't multibox.
i was like you once, "one account is enough". well, that didn't last long, now i have 3 accounts.
Joey Bags
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#43 - 2013-02-26 17:16:01 UTC
I mine every now and again. Usually when I want to skill up in my +5 implants. I usually am far enough removed from a hub and have very few problems. No, I don't have a "permit" and I've been ganked once and only occasionally bumped. I even go ice mining in a cheap fit procurer hoping mabey sometime someone will just so I can get kill rights. Another thing you can always do is scan down a grav site and mine that. I usually don't even run across another ship other than rats when I do. I half pay attention to what's going on usually and read a book. I've come across ripped belts with nothing in them but there are SO MANY belts, who cares. If you need to unload in a system with no staions and don't want to jump systems, find a .5 or .4 put up a POS and unload in that. At the end of a few days, take the POS down and move so nobody gets the idea to WARDEC just so they can kill your POS. It's really very easy.

You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose but you can't pick your friends nose. Unless you podded them...and collected their corpse.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#44 - 2013-02-26 17:24:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Skeln Thargensen
Dave Stark wrote:
then you have plenty of reason to join a player corp, however conversely i'll wager you're one of few miners that doesn't multibox.
i was like you once, "one account is enough". well, that didn't last long, now i have 3 accounts.


yes, it seems like it's quite easy to get a collection going but i am going to resist.

I suppose what I like about being a solo miner is that I can set up and skim the fat off a belt very quickly. no hanging around for people to fleet up etc. not that i mind waiting around to fleet up for a roam because that's fun, but mining??? hell no, background activity.

forums.  serious business.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#45 - 2013-02-26 17:31:41 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
No, not for your benefit Mr. NPC corp dude, for the benefit of those people who actually play in player run corporation, otherwise known as the way CCP wants us to play.

The OP has a legitimate point.


I disagree because as a high sec miner I can tell you i mine all the time and you just need to move your space buns to find good systems. the work you put into mining is finding the damn belts not actually mining them which is trivial. and you can be as far away from your trade hub as you like if you contract your minerals in bulk as people will shift them for less than 1% of their market value.

I would have thought if CCP wanted us to play in player corps then they would make the incentives better. certainly there's no incentive for me to join one as a solo miner. other things, however...

I mine as well in high sec, often.

You don't see belts stripped clean by gangs of miners in player run corps, they're all NPC miners.

The OP would have never even mentioned ganking if he was flying around and seeing miners in player run corps.

In order to access the highest level of industry you have to join a player run corporation, even in high sec; except where high sec mining is concerned.

There is no rule that says that people who choose to make a permenant home in a corporation that CCP doesn't intend for you to make a permenant home, must have access to the best mining potential.

I was only giving an example of stuff that they could do that wouldn't actually be "bad" for people.

If you need to be in a player run corp in order to fly an exhumer, oras, use T2 strips and MLU's, as well as be able to fly things in high sec like freighters and jump freighters, then dropping corp because someone war decced you would actually have an impact.

CCP did not put the NPC corps in the game so that industrialists can exploit them by leaving their corporations when there's a wardec, and suffer any consiquence.
Whitehound
#46 - 2013-02-26 17:36:21 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I disagree.

CCP told us that there are more people mining then ever in high sec, and it's becuase mining is safer in high sec now. I can see it for myself as I fly around high sec, the OP is indeed correct about belts being stripped clean faster then ever. It's more widespread then just "not mining 10 jumps out"

And in my experience "more then 10 jumps out" tends to put you into low sec.
I mine the lower sec status belts in high sec, they're being stripped clean just like the .9 and .8 systems.

This isn't 6 years ago when it was just a simple matter of finding a place that doesn't have a lot of activity.

It's not that they're stripping clean belts, they're stripping entire systems clean in no time.

The fix isn't to make it mroe dangerous to mine in high sec.
They need to give miners a reason to either form corporations or join them for the purpose of mining.

I would go so far as to require miners to be in a player run corporation in order to fly an exhumer or use T2 strips, and MLU's. They can say that CONCORD is requiring all capsuleer miners to register with a corporation, that is not NPC corps; for the purpose of lsensing, and economic reasons.

You may disagree, but I go mining myself, I have friends who do and I buy minerals from miners all around. Even if there was a shortage can one always go mining in a mission. There is no shortage here.

Besides, what would you want to do? Spawn more asteroids in high-sec so all of EVE can go mining?? Lol This makes no sense to me.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#47 - 2013-02-26 17:42:24 UTC
Even if ganking can be the key to stabilize things here, remember that ganking is essentially NOT profitable in any way for the ganker, and even if you gankers are making our mining in wormhole space more profitable (♥ for that you desserve a hug ♥), it appears that your activity can't, by nature, stay indefinitely, as it's unrewarding and repetitive.

Also, one day, macro-miners will learn how to buy procurers, and they will discover the 70k EHP thing... This day, ganking will cease to be an efficient counter to macro-mining, and the problem will appear again.

So even if I wouldn't scream and shake in all directions like OP did, even if it's not the worst game managment CCP ever did, we must admit that, at some point, there will be a problem.

Oh and, Themitanni dot com remembers us often enough that, regarding to the EULA :
“You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play..”

Common sense would suggest that being able, with one click, to give orders to twenty accounts, is a bit an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play and ordinary physical limitations...

But...

As this is all about money, CCP won't move a finger.

So we will all have to wait until the situation is critical. When the accounts leaving the game due to multiboxing will be more numerous than the multiboxers'. And it will take a lot of time...

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-02-26 17:44:27 UTC
No More Heroes wrote:
If only there were vast swaths of untouched space with virgin fields full of giant untouched asteroids

if only

Bingo.

If miners in high sec were required to play in a player run corp to access the best ships for the best mining in high sec, they'd be better prepared and more willing to enter other areas of the game to mine.

The NPC corps are only teaching people that by staying in the NPC corp you suffer no loss, and can do as well as everyone else that's not in a corp. NPC corps are too confortable, too profitable, and don't help to adjust people to the realities that EVE is a game about loss.

When it was more wortwhile to mine in null sec, miners came to null to mine.

Miners overall aren't as risk averse as people make them out to be, it's just you pussies on the forums that are. When miners gain something from mining with more risk they do it.

Just like carebears will PvP when they feel that PvP has a real purpose.
Fighting for your corp so that you don't suffer a loss of profit by only being able to fly T1 industrials in high sec would be a big encouragement for a lot of high sec industrial corps that feel they have no reason to endure a wardec because they can just go back to the NPC corp.

I don't care about you guys on the forums that **** yourself everytime something other then another mining ship aligns towards your belt. Because you are the guys that only give a **** about maintaining your ability to be able to use the NPC corps to avoid PvP and still be as good an industrialist as everyone else.


Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#49 - 2013-02-26 17:49:19 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I disagree.

CCP told us that there are more people mining then ever in high sec, and it's becuase mining is safer in high sec now. I can see it for myself as I fly around high sec, the OP is indeed correct about belts being stripped clean faster then ever. It's more widespread then just "not mining 10 jumps out"

And in my experience "more then 10 jumps out" tends to put you into low sec.
I mine the lower sec status belts in high sec, they're being stripped clean just like the .9 and .8 systems.

This isn't 6 years ago when it was just a simple matter of finding a place that doesn't have a lot of activity.

It's not that they're stripping clean belts, they're stripping entire systems clean in no time.

The fix isn't to make it mroe dangerous to mine in high sec.
They need to give miners a reason to either form corporations or join them for the purpose of mining.

I would go so far as to require miners to be in a player run corporation in order to fly an exhumer or use T2 strips, and MLU's. They can say that CONCORD is requiring all capsuleer miners to register with a corporation, that is not NPC corps; for the purpose of lsensing, and economic reasons.

You may disagree, but I go mining myself, I have friends who do and I buy minerals from miners all around. Even if there was a shortage can one always go mining in a mission. There is no shortage here.

Besides, what would you want to do? Spawn more asteroids in high-sec so all of EVE can go mining?? Lol This makes no sense to me.

You either didn't read a single thing I wrote, or you mixed up who you quoted.

Never once did I say a thing about spawning more asteroids, or that there was any kind of a shortage.
Your response has nothing to do with anything I wrote.

350K+ people play on TQ today. Every single person can start mining in high sec for all I care, as long as the majority of them are doing it in a player run corp.

You do not see belts full of miners from player run corps in high sec. Anyone that says you do is a liar.
Dave stark
#50 - 2013-02-26 17:50:31 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Even if ganking can be the key to stabilize things here, remember that ganking is essentially NOT profitable in any way for the ganker, and even if you gankers are making our mining in wormhole space more profitable (♥ for that you desserve a hug ♥), it appears that your activity can't, by nature, stay indefinitely, as it's unrewarding and repetitive.

Also, one day, macro-miners will learn how to buy procurers, and they will discover the 70k EHP thing... This day, ganking will cease to be an efficient counter to macro-mining, and the problem will appear again.

So even if I wouldn't scream and shake in all directions like OP did, even if it's not the worst game managment CCP ever did, we must admit that, at some point, there will be a problem.

Oh and, Themitanni dot com remembers us often enough that, regarding to the EULA :
“You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play..”

Common sense would suggest that being able, with one click, to give orders to twenty accounts, is a bit an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play and ordinary physical limitations...

But...

As this is all about money, CCP won't move a finger.

So we will all have to wait until the situation is critical. When the accounts leaving the game due to multiboxing will be more numerous than the multiboxers'. And it will take a lot of time...


highlight the caveat, totally ignore the caveat.

even multiboxing, you don't gain anything at an accelerated rate in comparison to normal gameplay. honestly, the eula seems like the bible some times. people picking what they do and don't want, and interpreting it how they want it to be interpreted instead of what is actually written.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#51 - 2013-02-26 17:50:35 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
You don't see belts stripped clean by gangs of miners in player run corps, they're all NPC miners.

The OP would have never even mentioned ganking if he was flying around and seeing miners in player run corps.

In order to access the highest level of industry you have to join a player run corporation, even in high sec; except where high sec mining is concerned.

There is no rule that says that people who choose to make a permenant home in a corporation that CCP doesn't intend for you to make a permenant home, must have access to the best mining potential.

I was only giving an example of stuff that they could do that wouldn't actually be "bad" for people.

If you need to be in a player run corp in order to fly an exhumer, oras, use T2 strips and MLU's, as well as be able to fly things in high sec like freighters and jump freighters, then dropping corp because someone war decced you would actually have an impact.

CCP did not put the NPC corps in the game so that industrialists can exploit them by leaving their corporations when there's a wardec, and suffer any consiquence.


CCP presumably put NPC corps in the game so casual and solo play is tenable, which it has the effect of doing. that's how I play at the moment as I don't have a lot of time IRL, at least not for the game. I see a lot of player corp operations in the belts I've been mining in. no idea what it's like closer to the hubs but i stay away from them for good reason.

It's a noob profession, best left to noobs. player corps should be using their POS to their advantage, copying, invention, research etc.

forums.  serious business.
Dave stark
#52 - 2013-02-26 17:52:57 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
You do not see belts full of miners from player run corps in high sec. Anyone that says you do is a liar.


i know of one, but it's just one guy in his own corp running like 10 accounts. he only does it because he has a pos.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#53 - 2013-02-26 17:56:30 UTC
Oh before I forget, rebalance barges.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-02-26 17:58:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Skeln Thargensen wrote:


CCP presumably put NPC corps in the game so casual and solo play is tenable, which it has the effect of doing. that's how I play at the moment as I don't have a lot of time IRL, at least not for the game. I see a lot of player corp operations in the belts I've been mining in. no idea what it's like closer to the hubs but i stay away from them for good reason.

It's a noob profession, best left to noobs. player corps should be using their POS to their advantage, copying, invention, research etc.

CCP has NEVER said that NPC corps are there for solo and casual play.

They have said that they don't indend FOR ANYONE to stay in the NPC corp perminently and that they WANT EVERYONE to join a player run corporation at some point.

It takes only one person to have a player run corporation.

Flying exhuamers, Orcas, Freighters, and jump freighters is not something "noobs" do.

PoS's do not just do copy, invention, and research. The only reason that you put them up specifically for those things is because the NPC stations are just as good for everything else, and you don't have the wait times to deal with.


I"m sorry, but you didn't give a single valid or accurate excuse to allow miners in NPC corps to be just as good at mining as everyone else without having to assume the same risk.
Dave stark
#55 - 2013-02-26 17:59:09 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Oh before I forget, rebalance barges.

not empty quoting.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#56 - 2013-02-26 18:08:39 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
CCP has NEVER said that NPC corps are there for solo and casual play.

They have said that they don't indend FOR ANYONE to stay in the NPC corp perminently and that they WANT EVERYONE to join a player run corporation at some point.

It takes only one person to have a player run corporation.

Flying exhuamers, Orcas, Freighters, and jump freighters is not something "noobs" do.

PoS's do not just do not just do copy, invention, and research. The only reason that you put them up specifically for those things is because the NPC stations are just as good for everything else, and you don't have the wait times to deal with.


I"m sorry, but you didn't give a single valid or accurate excuse to allow miners in NPC corps to be just as good at mining as everyone else without having to assume the same risk.


lol wut? that's the game we're playing. you are thinking of some imaginary game which is differently balanced. what CCP does and CCP says do not seem to be in agreement.

And I don't see how us all being in one man corps betters the game other than feeding the usual high sec blap fantasies.

forums.  serious business.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#57 - 2013-02-26 18:11:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
Dave Stark wrote:
Altrue wrote:
Even if ganking can be the key to stabilize things here, remember that ganking is essentially NOT profitable in any way for the ganker, and even if you gankers are making our mining in wormhole space more profitable (♥ for that you desserve a hug ♥), it appears that your activity can't, by nature, stay indefinitely, as it's unrewarding and repetitive.

Also, one day, macro-miners will learn how to buy procurers, and they will discover the 70k EHP thing... This day, ganking will cease to be an efficient counter to macro-mining, and the problem will appear again.

So even if I wouldn't scream and shake in all directions like OP did, even if it's not the worst game managment CCP ever did, we must admit that, at some point, there will be a problem.

Oh and, Themitanni dot com remembers us often enough that, regarding to the EULA :
“You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play..”

Common sense would suggest that being able, with one click, to give orders to twenty accounts, is a bit an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play and ordinary physical limitations...

But...

As this is all about money, CCP won't move a finger.

So we will all have to wait until the situation is critical. When the accounts leaving the game due to multiboxing will be more numerous than the multiboxers'. And it will take a lot of time...


highlight the caveat, totally ignore the caveat.

even multiboxing, you don't gain anything at an accelerated rate in comparison to normal gameplay. honestly, the eula seems like the bible some times. people picking what they do and don't want, and interpreting it how they want it to be interpreted instead of what is actually written.


Ok then I'm waiting for a video of a guy managing let's say, 10 accounts without a multiboxing tool, as effectively as someone who would have such software.
It could be quite fun to watch ! ^^

So, indeed yes you are gaining items at an accelerated rate compared to ordinary Game play. Not compared to 10 players working together, but compared to what the multiboxer could have done without an external tool.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#58 - 2013-02-26 18:13:06 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
CCP has NEVER said that NPC corps are there for solo and casual play.

They have said that they don't indend FOR ANYONE to stay in the NPC corp perminently and that they WANT EVERYONE to join a player run corporation at some point.

It takes only one person to have a player run corporation.

Flying exhuamers, Orcas, Freighters, and jump freighters is not something "noobs" do.

PoS's do not just do not just do copy, invention, and research. The only reason that you put them up specifically for those things is because the NPC stations are just as good for everything else, and you don't have the wait times to deal with.


I"m sorry, but you didn't give a single valid or accurate excuse to allow miners in NPC corps to be just as good at mining as everyone else without having to assume the same risk.


lol wut? that's the game we're playing. you are thinking of some imaginary game which is differently balanced. what CCP does and CCP says do not seem to be in agreement.

And I don't see how us all being in one man corps betters the game other than feeding the usual high sec blap fantasies.

You not keeping up with what the things CCP talks about is wholey your problem and no one elses.

CCP has never said that NPC corps are for solo and casual players.
Exhumers, Orcas, freighters, and jump freighters are all advanced ships that are not for "noobs", as you said.
PoS's are not just for invention, research, and copying, as you said.

You were wrong about all three of those points, and insisting othwise only means you're not being honest.
flakeys
Doomheim
#59 - 2013-02-26 18:18:05 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I mine as well in high sec, often.






Shocked and now i've seen it all .......

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Dave stark
#60 - 2013-02-26 18:19:05 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Altrue wrote:
Even if ganking can be the key to stabilize things here, remember that ganking is essentially NOT profitable in any way for the ganker, and even if you gankers are making our mining in wormhole space more profitable (♥ for that you desserve a hug ♥), it appears that your activity can't, by nature, stay indefinitely, as it's unrewarding and repetitive.

Also, one day, macro-miners will learn how to buy procurers, and they will discover the 70k EHP thing... This day, ganking will cease to be an efficient counter to macro-mining, and the problem will appear again.

So even if I wouldn't scream and shake in all directions like OP did, even if it's not the worst game managment CCP ever did, we must admit that, at some point, there will be a problem.

Oh and, Themitanni dot com remembers us often enough that, regarding to the EULA :
“You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play..”

Common sense would suggest that being able, with one click, to give orders to twenty accounts, is a bit an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play and ordinary physical limitations...

But...

As this is all about money, CCP won't move a finger.

So we will all have to wait until the situation is critical. When the accounts leaving the game due to multiboxing will be more numerous than the multiboxers'. And it will take a lot of time...


highlight the caveat, totally ignore the caveat.

even multiboxing, you don't gain anything at an accelerated rate in comparison to normal gameplay. honestly, the eula seems like the bible some times. people picking what they do and don't want, and interpreting it how they want it to be interpreted instead of what is actually written.


Ok then I'm waiting for a video of a guy managing let's say, 10 accounts without a multiboxing tool, as effectively as someone who would have such software.
It could be quite fun to watch ! ^^

So, indeed yes you are gaining items at an accelerated rate compared to ordinary Game play. Not compared to 10 players working together, but compared to what the multiboxer could have done without an external tool.


totally ignoring the fact that 1 person playing 10 accounts isn't ordinary gameplay, so comparing anything to that is dumb.