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Questioning Game Design Presuppositions

Author
Adrenochrome
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-02-22 17:28:48 UTC
Hi,

In this thread, I’d like to challenge some of the game design presuppositions in Eve Online.

1. Non-fun aspects of the game are acceptable.
2. The amount of information trumps being able to observe it comfortably.

1. Eve online assumes that non-fun aspects of the game are acceptable to players. I’d like to argue that this presupposition needs to be challenged. We are playing this game to have fun above all other reasons.

People don’t have all that much time and to make the playing experience valuable non-fun aspects should be removed.

For example:
• Skill point loss (this one is a huge pain, I paid for the time those skills were training with hard cash, so if you take them away I expect a refund)
• Flying to a wreck to loot it (I don’t have time for that)
• Cycling time for various modules, like the salvager (I don’t have time for that — they should be successful every time and the skill should have a different effect)
• Stupid auto-pilot (it should fly to 0km from a gate and then jump — it’s not fun to wait for it and whatever reason the devs have trumps the player’s fun; gate campers are probably bored too sitting there waiting)
• Stupid skill training queue (if you ever forget to hit apply before you leave you could lose a lot of training time — it should auto-resume some skill training if nothing is being trained)
• There are probably a lot more things that could be added

For an example, look at the Civilization series and its recent re-design. Civ was never all that accessible to a lot of people because it had non-fun elements in the game. In Civ Revolutions and Civ5 they removed those elements to open up the experience to more people. The way the wonders worked were changed to not have as many benefits that would eventually expire and instead they added more instant benefits, which were ultimately more rewarding.

I think when Eve came out in 2003 it was OK to have more non-fun aspects in a game, but today it’s not. CCP, please challenge the presupposition.

2. Eve Online has a tremendous amount of information and CCP presupposes that this is more important than being able to view it all comfortably.

A while ago CCP re-designed the game client launch screen. They provided big button that says “Play” and big headings in a comfortable typeface.

Why is it that a single font is used in the game UI? One hardly even sees different weights or sizes for the font. In fact, by default, it’s so small that a designer would consider it below legible size if it were printed in a newspaper. It takes too much time to find the information one needs in a PVP situation because the typography is not effective. It also strains the eye, which is not healthy.

As far as I know, it hasn’t been changed since the game launched. The UI desperately needs an update if I’m going to continue playing this game.

What the developers are presupposing is that for this game we need to include so much information that there’s no way to comfortably present it. Is that really true?

For example, do you have to use that tiny 6pt typeface on the calculator tool as well or can’t you use a different and bigger typeface? I end up Alt + Tabbing out of the program and using the calculator outside because it’s a paint to read it. Surely, some part of the game that doesn’t involve condensed lists can have a larger typeface.

To me this is one of the big UI failures of this game. It’s can’t be that hard to fix. I know you can scale the UI, but that’s not the solution. What is needed is an effective typographic hierarchy. Surely it’s not harder than some of the updates we’ve seen.

CCP, please question this presupposition.
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#2 - 2013-02-22 17:45:16 UTC
Adrenochrome wrote:
Why is it that a single font is used in the game UI? One hardly even sees different weights or sizes for the font. In fact, by default, it’s so small that a designer would consider it below legible size if it were printed in a newspaper. It takes too much time to find the information one needs in a PVP situation because the typography is not effective. It also strains the eye, which is not healthy.

As far as I know, it hasn’t been changed since the game launched. The UI desperately needs an update if I’m going to continue playing this game.


It is not the same font as the 2003 font.

Quote:
• Skill point loss (this one is a huge pain, I paid for the time those skills were training with hard cash, so if you take them away I expect a refund)
• Flying to a wreck to loot it (I don’t have time for that)
• Cycling time for various modules, like the salvager (I don’t have time for that — they should be successful every time and the skill should have a different effect)
• Stupid auto-pilot (it should fly to 0km from a gate and then jump — it’s not fun to wait for it and whatever reason the devs have trumps the player’s fun; gate campers are probably bored too sitting there waiting)
• Stupid skill training queue (if you ever forget to hit apply before you leave you could lose a lot of training time — it should auto-resume some skill training if nothing is being trained)
• There are probably a lot more things that could be added


Either you're epically trolling or EVE is not the game for you. "I should have everything I want when I want it" isn't how it goes here. If you're not willing to work and take risks and make sacrifices for your reward, then play something else. There's nothing wrong with not liking EVE.
Cromm Cruach
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-02-22 18:38:03 UTC
I would like to point out that they are doing exactly the same kinds of changes that you are proposing for EVE over at WoW...

Guess what - people are leaving World of Warcraft en masse partially because it's turning into such a 'please the kindergartners' game that the adults that actually play are tired of it. They are turning the game into an instantaneous gratification program that people say they want, but ultimately get tired of because it offers no real challenge.

The game structure in EVE is the way it is because of the very fact that it creates a DYNAMIC system, much like the real world. When you start to go down the path of instantly gratifying the populace, the populace ultimately becomes lazy and listless, which causes them to leave in search of more fun things to do.

Ultimately, people who grow up and actually mature, find that working hard for something is infinitely more rewarding than having it handed to you at no cost because then it has no value to you and hence unfulfilling.

Yes, this became more philosophical than I intended, but its about the only way to explain why those requested changes are VERY BAD for the game. (and more importantly, for you)

If you want things handed to you without working for them, I suggest the latest expansion for World of Warcraft.
SoOza N'GasZ
L F C
Ethereal Dawn
#4 - 2013-02-22 18:40:27 UTC
Adrenochrome wrote:
Hi,

In this thread, I’d like to challenge some of the game design presuppositions in Eve Online.

1. Non-fun aspects of the game are acceptable.
2. The amount of information trumps being able to observe it comfortably.

1. Eve online assumes that non-fun aspects of the game are acceptable to players. I’d like to argue that this presupposition needs to be challenged. We are playing this game to have fun above all other reasons.

People don’t have all that much time and to make the playing experience valuable non-fun aspects should be removed.

For example:
• Skill point loss (this one is a huge pain, I paid for the time those skills were training with hard cash, so if you take them away I expect a refund)
• Flying to a wreck to loot it (I don’t have time for that)
• Cycling time for various modules, like the salvager (I don’t have time for that — they should be successful every time and the skill should have a different effect)
• Stupid auto-pilot (it should fly to 0km from a gate and then jump — it’s not fun to wait for it and whatever reason the devs have trumps the player’s fun; gate campers are probably bored too sitting there waiting)
• Stupid skill training queue (if you ever forget to hit apply before you leave you could lose a lot of training time — it should auto-resume some skill training if nothing is being trained)
• There are probably a lot more things that could be added

For an example, look at the Civilization series and its recent re-design. Civ was never all that accessible to a lot of people because it had non-fun elements in the game. In Civ Revolutions and Civ5 they removed those elements to open up the experience to more people. The way the wonders worked were changed to not have as many benefits that would eventually expire and instead they added more instant benefits, which were ultimately more rewarding.

I think when Eve came out in 2003 it was OK to have more non-fun aspects in a game, but today it’s not. CCP, please challenge the presupposition.

2. Eve Online has a tremendous amount of information and CCP presupposes that this is more important than being able to view it all comfortably.

A while ago CCP re-designed the game client launch screen. They provided big button that says “Play” and big headings in a comfortable typeface.

Why is it that a single font is used in the game UI? One hardly even sees different weights or sizes for the font. In fact, by default, it’s so small that a designer would consider it below legible size if it were printed in a newspaper. It takes too much time to find the information one needs in a PVP situation because the typography is not effective. It also strains the eye, which is not healthy.

As far as I know, it hasn’t been changed since the game launched. The UI desperately needs an update if I’m going to continue playing this game.

What the developers are presupposing is that for this game we need to include so much information that there’s no way to comfortably present it. Is that really true?

For example, do you have to use that tiny 6pt typeface on the calculator tool as well or can’t you use a different and bigger typeface? I end up Alt + Tabbing out of the program and using the calculator outside because it’s a paint to read it. Surely, some part of the game that doesn’t involve condensed lists can have a larger typeface.

To me this is one of the big UI failures of this game. It’s can’t be that hard to fix. I know you can scale the UI, but that’s not the solution. What is needed is an effective typographic hierarchy. Surely it’s not harder than some of the updates we’ve seen.

CCP, please question this presupposition.



I agree with you on the eve online Fonts they are horrific.

Also the rightclick menue is unresponsive flimsy and outright terrible.

Legba

Adrenochrome
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2013-02-22 18:53:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Adrenochrome
Cromm Cruach wrote:
I would like to point out that they are doing exactly the same kinds of changes that you are proposing for EVE over at WoW...

Guess what - people are leaving World of Warcraft en masse partially because it's turning into such a 'please the kindergartners' game that the adults that actually play are tired of it. They are turning the game into an instantaneous gratification program that people say they want, but ultimately get tired of because it offers no real challenge.

The game structure in EVE is the way it is because of the very fact that it creates a DYNAMIC system, much like the real world. When you start to go down the path of instantly gratifying the populace, the populace ultimately becomes lazy and listless, which causes them to leave in search of more fun things to do.

Ultimately, people who grow up and actually mature, find that working hard for something is infinitely more rewarding than having it handed to you at no cost because then it has no value to you and hence unfulfilling.

Yes, this became more philosophical than I intended, but its about the only way to explain why those requested changes are VERY BAD for the game. (and more importantly, for you)

If you want things handed to you without working for them, I suggest the latest expansion for World of Warcraft.


I used to play WoW before trying EVE. I don't think my points relate to maturity at all. I'm providing a philosophical critique about game design principles.

I'm not looking for instant gratification. I am looking to have fun though. I've given Eve a fair chance — renewed my subscription twice. I think you're right, it's not the game for me. I don't have time to wait through the non-fun parts because I'm a working adult.

I'll play this game instead when it comes out because it will have better game design to it: http://0x10c.com/story/.

Well I just cancelled my subscription thanks to your suggestion. Good bye.
Akara Ito
Phalanx Solutions
#6 - 2013-02-22 19:01:11 UTC
Adrenochrome wrote:
Hi,

In this thread, I’d like to challenge some of the game design presuppositions in Eve Online.

1. Non-fun aspects of the game are acceptable.
2. The amount of information trumps being able to observe it comfortably.


Whats fun and whats not is not yours to decide. If you'd try you could find people enjoying all the things that you dont like.
And well, there is a lot of information in Eve because the game offers quite a lot of things to do, I wouldnt even consider this bad.
And again, how much information is "comfortably observable" ?
Raven DarkSouless
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-02-22 19:07:17 UTC
I suggest reading glasses or turn down your screen rez this might help your 6pt font problem.
tankus2
HeartVenom Inc.
BORE
#8 - 2013-02-22 19:23:50 UTC
you can actually change font sizes now. I've currently got it from 11 pt (default) to 12 pt, and the extra point makes all the difference. The font seems to be designed with 12 pt in mind, but doesn't compress down well.

Where the science gets done

RavenTesio
Liandri Corporation
Liandri Covenant
#9 - 2013-02-22 19:25:27 UTC
Adrenochrome wrote:
Hi,

In this thread, I’d like to challenge some of the game design presuppositions in Eve Online.

1. Non-fun aspects of the game are acceptable.
2. The amount of information trumps being able to observe it comfortably.

1. Eve online assumes that non-fun aspects of the game are acceptable to players. I’d like to argue that this presupposition needs to be challenged. We are playing this game to have fun above all other reasons.

People don’t have all that much time and to make the playing experience valuable non-fun aspects should be removed.

For example:
• Skill point loss (this one is a huge pain, I paid for the time those skills were training with hard cash, so if you take them away I expect a refund)
• Flying to a wreck to loot it (I don’t have time for that)
• Cycling time for various modules, like the salvager (I don’t have time for that — they should be successful every time and the skill should have a different effect)
• Stupid auto-pilot (it should fly to 0km from a gate and then jump — it’s not fun to wait for it and whatever reason the devs have trumps the player’s fun; gate campers are probably bored too sitting there waiting)
• Stupid skill training queue (if you ever forget to hit apply before you leave you could lose a lot of training time — it should auto-resume some skill training if nothing is being trained)
• There are probably a lot more things that could be added


While I agree with the sentiment, as CCP believes "Complexity = Depth" in almost every aspect of the game ... the problem does stem from the fact they always include non-enjoyable components to the game as a /downside/ rather than actually being creative.

This said certain aspects in the game don't bother me.

• Skill Point Loss - While this is quite a frustrating aspect of the game, it is designed as an increasing ISK Sink for more experienced players. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from not Upgrading your Clone, except for the loss of Skillpoints; which is 15% off of your last trained skills... to be honest most of the time you're looking at a few days lost at best.

This said it was a step up from the original clone system, anyone old enough to remember the clones with the "expiry date" no doubt can attest to.

My issue isn't with this mechanic, but the fact it is NEVER explained to a new player.

• Looting - This is again another mechanic that changed a while ago to what it is today, which honestly is better. Prior to Salvagers being added, ships didn't drop wrecks; loot would simply magically appear in your cargo, when you were full no more loot. Forcing players to constantly warp out and back in to missions actually wasting far more time ... how it is today adds a layer of risk along with loot not being lost because you're full.

I mean you're annoyed now because you have to travel 10-60k to go pick up something from who you killed which you can be selective of... how about seeing on a Kill Report that an Officer Mod dropped, but because your cargo hold was full you couldn't pick it up instead you have 3 useless meta 2 launchers. Alright so an extreme example, but trust me it happened ALOT

• Auto-piloting - First of all, any self respecting pilot doesn't use auto-pilot. It is the quickest way to get yourself killed, I mean seriously how lazy are you that you can't click 2 buttons each system; but to complain about being 12k from the gate.
Pfft! 2007 prior to the auto-pilot distance change it was 25k consider yourself lucky CCP reduced it 50%

Besides if landed you at Zero, then there would be Zero Risk using Auto-Pilot. AFKing safely around High/Low-Sec, seriously?!

• Salvager Cycle Time - While I do agree here, that the 'chance' based mechanics just **** me off; your solution honestly isn't much better. Especially as your main complaint is "time it takes", well Salvaging Level 5 with a Salvager Tech 2 and almost every Faction / Tech 1 wreck will salvage first cycle almost everytime. Specialised ships (Noctis e.g.) have cycle time reduction bonus' ... so even a missed cycle isn't a bad thing.
Tech 2 wrecks often become a lesson in patience, but that said the payout is approx. 10x the value or normal salvage ... Risk vs Reward.

In my opinion IF (or when) they decide to change Salvaging, my hope is that they make it part of Incarna; so you physically get out of your ship to explore the wrecks, this could net far greater salvage such-as destroyed modules that could be rebuilt or such... while obviously there is a greater risk being away from your ship. Alternatively they could make it part of the DUST Cooperative aspects (instead of just drone horde mode) although I'd prefer to do it myself in EVE.

• Skill Training Queue - I very rarely actually use the Queue screen, I check if my skill has <24hrs... right-click on a skill in my character sheet and "Add to Queue End" ... no fuss, no applying, no worries. Even still I mean this issue you have sounds alot like just not paying attention.

Frankly most of the things you're complaining about frankly sound like pure laziness on your part, being frustrated at something not being instant as you're used to in say World of Warcraft. I don't have a great deal of time to actually play the game, but honestly out of all of the timesink stuff in EVE... nothing you listed qualifies in my opinion.

Now had you been talking about the POS or Invention Mechanics, then my response would likely be to agree. They are old, decrepid and horrible - but CCP doesn't plan on doing anything about them being horribly broken cause it is "too difficult to change"
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2013-02-22 22:15:29 UTC
Akara Ito wrote:
Adrenochrome wrote:
Hi,

In this thread, I’d like to challenge some of the game design presuppositions in Eve Online.

1. Non-fun aspects of the game are acceptable.
2. The amount of information trumps being able to observe it comfortably.


Whats fun and whats not is not yours to decide. If you'd try you could find people enjoying all the things that you dont like.
And well, there is a lot of information in Eve because the game offers quite a lot of things to do, I wouldnt even consider this bad.
And again, how much information is "comfortably observable" ?

Yeah,as far as fun, ive seen people (actually started a pvp pirate corp in lowsec with amny fo them a long while abck) whos pride and joy f life was logging in to eve to check/update/renew his market orders, plot trends, make predictions, and rake in the cash to help fund our ship replacement program.

everything in eve is fun, and if there is a section fo the game that IS NOT fun for you, then there is ALWAYS someone who would be willing to team up with you to fulfill those unfun sections for you.

that is how communities ar ebuilt, that is how eve is built, people with different interests complimenting eachothers strengths so that all benefit.
Agrias Hellion
Diligentia Sodalitas
#11 - 2013-02-22 23:26:29 UTC
Quote:
Looting - This is again another mechanic that changed a while ago to what it is today, which honestly is better. Prior to Salvagers being added, ships didn't drop wrecks; loot would simply magically appear in your cargo, when you were full no more loot. Forcing players to constantly warp out and back in to missions actually wasting far more time ... how it is today adds a layer of risk along with loot not being lost because you're full.


Really, I always remember they dropped cargo containers, I don't recall loot ever appearing in my cargo hold without having to fly to it first. CCP have tried to fix the problem by adding tractor beams.

There never used to be a warp to zero either, back in the day if we wanted a safe "0" route we had to create bookmarks at every gate you thought you might want to use. Corps often had to have copies of safe jumps which they would give to new pilots.

The OP does have a point, there is a lot of useless and badly implemented mechanics in the game, literally patches because the game was lacking and in my opinion still is lacking. In fact since 2003 not a great deal has really changed from what you could do then and what you do now.

Sure things have been added, Captains, Quarters, fleet and gang systems, PI, tech 2 and tech 3 but it is much the same. A number of the new tech 2 ships were re-coloured standard ships. A pretty engine upgrade, stability upgrades etc. A hundred pointless new skills where 10 would do.

For all that you still have a limited amount of options and in any given option with perhaps the exception of pvp it is very basic and probably won't attract many new players.

Quote:
Ultimately, people who grow up and actually mature, find that working hard for something is infinitely more rewarding than having it handed to you at no cost because then it has no value to you and hence unfulfilling.


The way WoW is now is not why people were leaving. Many people left simply because the game became stagnant and each new expansion added more of the same, much in the same way as Eve. The initial problem started with Burning Crusade, the first expansion. The new PvP armour rewards and the arena system meant a constant scaling approach with PVE that screwed everything over. Everything had to be "Epic" to keep the pace and purple became the new blue.

I love your condescending tone, it just makes you look like a ****. A lot of "mature" people who have "grown up" realise that working hard often rewards you with **** all. That is the truth behind life.

Working extra hard:

"It's like wearing dark pants and pissing down your leg,"

"It gives you a warm feeling, but no one knows you did it."

Eve first and foremost is a game, games should be fun. There are many different types of fun and it means different things to different people. A lot of Eve is a large boring time sink, I am not the only one to say this have a browse of Rookie chat or local once in awhile.

Eve could be improved for the better but the devs have no interest in doing so. From what I can tell they are more interested in randomly balancing ships or adding new ones which look like old ships with red stripes on them.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#12 - 2013-02-23 00:03:22 UTC
Adrenochrome wrote:
Cromm Cruach wrote:
I would like to point out that they are doing exactly the same kinds of changes that you are proposing for EVE over at WoW...

Guess what - people are leaving World of Warcraft en masse partially because it's turning into such a 'please the kindergartners' game that the adults that actually play are tired of it. They are turning the game into an instantaneous gratification program that people say they want, but ultimately get tired of because it offers no real challenge.

The game structure in EVE is the way it is because of the very fact that it creates a DYNAMIC system, much like the real world. When you start to go down the path of instantly gratifying the populace, the populace ultimately becomes lazy and listless, which causes them to leave in search of more fun things to do.

Ultimately, people who grow up and actually mature, find that working hard for something is infinitely more rewarding than having it handed to you at no cost because then it has no value to you and hence unfulfilling.

Yes, this became more philosophical than I intended, but its about the only way to explain why those requested changes are VERY BAD for the game. (and more importantly, for you)

If you want things handed to you without working for them, I suggest the latest expansion for World of Warcraft.


I used to play WoW before trying EVE. I don't think my points relate to maturity at all. I'm providing a philosophical critique about game design principles.

I'm not looking for instant gratification. I am looking to have fun though. I've given Eve a fair chance — renewed my subscription twice. I think you're right, it's not the game for me. I don't have time to wait through the non-fun parts because I'm a working adult.

I'll play this game instead when it comes out because it will have better game design to it: http://0x10c.com/story/.

Well I just cancelled my subscription thanks to your suggestion. Good bye.


Goodbye....

Also, your stuff, can I have?

On a more serious note.... this is a game that caters to many play styles... Some people find mining tedious and boring... other's find it fun and relaxing... Same with Industry, Missioning, etc... If there is an activity you just don't enjoy... then don't do it... You don't have to loot wrecks... you don't have to salvage... you don't have to mine... Do what you want to do.... and stop doing what you don't enjoy! This is a sandbox, and there is very little that you "have to do"....
Cromm Cruach
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2013-02-26 05:39:57 UTC
Agrias Hellion wrote:
Quote:


Quote:
Ultimately, people who grow up and actually mature, find that working hard for something is infinitely more rewarding than having it handed to you at no cost because then it has no value to you and hence unfulfilling.


I love your condescending tone, it just makes you look like a ****. A lot of "mature" people who have "grown up" realise that working hard often rewards you with **** all. That is the truth behind life.

Working extra hard:

"It's like wearing dark pants and pissing down your leg,"

"It gives you a warm feeling, but no one knows you did it."



I have to apologize, because I didn't mean to sound condescending in that post, so I'm sorry that I did.

But I would like to thank you for helping to prove my point.
Quote:
A lot of "mature" people who have "grown up" realise that working hard often rewards you with **** all. That is the truth behind life.

and
[quote]Working extra hard:
"It's like wearing dark pants and pissing down your leg,"
"It gives you a warm feeling, but no one knows you did it."


You work hard because it's the HONEST thing to do...yeah, I just used the old man words there. Your grandfather bitching at you about the way things were "back in his day" wasn't just him being cantankerous, he was pointing out that you're still a little self-entitled brat that needs to realize that sometimes life just blows butt chunks out the airlock and you're sitting in the seat next to it on a plane that is currently crashing in a ball of flame after plummeting 37 thousand feet. And when you try to come back and reply with, "But I've had hard times..." bull.

Hard times are when you leave a camp with 36 of your closest friends for what should be a happy little jaunt through some local brush for a few hours on a nice little island in the south Pacific named Iwo Jima, only to come back to camp 17 days later carrying 31 dog tags on which are printed names that you will NEVER forget, after having been stuck behind a troop of Japanese that cut you off from any food, water, or ammunition, who were HUNTING for YOU personally.

Did I land on Iwo Jima? No, I did not, my grandfather did. Did I get trapped behind an enemy unit who was looking to kill me and my platoon? Nope, again, that was my grandfather. Did I get pestered by some little brat hoping to hear about how glamorous the fighting and killing was? No, that was again my grandfather. He told that story only once.

But I have had similar. And you know what I learned? Its not that grandpa returned to the US to drive around the country side selling crap like an ACME salesman that made him a great man. It wasn't that he was in WWII and survived. It wasn't that he got to kill all those enemy combatants, either. It was the fact that he worked his hardest to make sure that his kids got to eat, and go to school. That he realized that it's not WHAT OTHERS THINK OF YOU or how they see you worked so hard. Its that you did your best and worked hard.

That saying, the one about no one noticing you pissed yourself and that is what working hard amounts to - that's not said by a mature adult, that's said by some little child running around in an adults body who still thinks that the world owes them something. That saying amounts to "I did stuff and no one gave me a trophy".

You know what, oh the f- well.

And the really sad part - this post wont do any good to change your opinion. You still have to grow up and learn the real meaning and truths behind life. You still have to make mistakes, FAIL, lose and lose hard. Just like the rest of us.

But for those of us who have at least started down this path, we understand that the good things we want in life, the good things we want for those that follow us, the good things we want the rest of the world to have/see/DO - those things only happen when people do them. And no one will do them if we all think like you do. The fire wasn't always burning, someone had to light the match.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-02-26 06:15:46 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Adrenochrome wrote:
Cromm Cruach wrote:
I would like to point out that they are doing exactly the same kinds of changes that you are proposing for EVE over at WoW...

Guess what - people are leaving World of Warcraft en masse partially because it's turning into such a 'please the kindergartners' game that the adults that actually play are tired of it. They are turning the game into an instantaneous gratification program that people say they want, but ultimately get tired of because it offers no real challenge.

The game structure in EVE is the way it is because of the very fact that it creates a DYNAMIC system, much like the real world. When you start to go down the path of instantly gratifying the populace, the populace ultimately becomes lazy and listless, which causes them to leave in search of more fun things to do.

Ultimately, people who grow up and actually mature, find that working hard for something is infinitely more rewarding than having it handed to you at no cost because then it has no value to you and hence unfulfilling.

Yes, this became more philosophical than I intended, but its about the only way to explain why those requested changes are VERY BAD for the game. (and more importantly, for you)

If you want things handed to you without working for them, I suggest the latest expansion for World of Warcraft.


I used to play WoW before trying EVE. I don't think my points relate to maturity at all. I'm providing a philosophical critique about game design principles.

I'm not looking for instant gratification. I am looking to have fun though. I've given Eve a fair chance — renewed my subscription twice. I think you're right, it's not the game for me. I don't have time to wait through the non-fun parts because I'm a working adult.

I'll play this game instead when it comes out because it will have better game design to it: http://0x10c.com/story/.

Well I just cancelled my subscription thanks to your suggestion. Good bye.


Goodbye....

Also, your stuff, can I have?

On a more serious note.... this is a game that caters to many play styles... Some people find mining tedious and boring... other's find it fun and relaxing... Same with Industry, Missioning, etc... If there is an activity you just don't enjoy... then don't do it... You don't have to loot wrecks... you don't have to salvage... you don't have to mine... Do what you want to do.... and stop doing what you don't enjoy! This is a sandbox, and there is very little that you "have to do"....


Eve = grind. You can't escape the grind. No matter where you go in Eve, there's the grind, with kb humping the biggest grind of them all. All his suggestions lessens grind, and we clearly can't have that. And Eve's no sandbox, Minecraft is a sandbox.Lol
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#15 - 2013-02-26 07:14:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Now that OP has unsubbed (and rightfully so), I propose that this thread has ended its usefulness. Let us allow it to gracefully float to the bottom of the proverbial sea floor, to decompose silently while being fed upon by all the threadfish and forum urchins that move about in the cold, dark muck.

However, since nobody will take that suggestion..

OP suggests he doesn't have time to play EVE in its current incarnation because he/she/it is a "working adult". Let's ask all the white-collar gamers that EVE is allegedly famous for having in its ranks whether they have time to play EVE the way it is, or if they need everything to happen instantly and without challenge too.
Sigras
Conglomo
#16 - 2013-02-26 07:52:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
Adrenochrome wrote:
Hi,

In this thread, I’d like to challenge some of the game design presuppositions in Eve Online.

1. Non-fun aspects of the game are acceptable.
2. The amount of information trumps being able to observe it comfortably.

1. Eve online assumes that non-fun aspects of the game are acceptable to players. I’d like to argue that this presupposition needs to be challenged. We are playing this game to have fun above all other reasons.

People don’t have all that much time and to make the playing experience valuable non-fun aspects should be removed.

For example:
• Skill point loss (this one is a huge pain, I paid for the time those skills were training with hard cash, so if you take them away I expect a refund)
• Flying to a wreck to loot it (I don’t have time for that)
• Cycling time for various modules, like the salvager (I don’t have time for that — they should be successful every time and the skill should have a different effect)
• Stupid auto-pilot (it should fly to 0km from a gate and then jump — it’s not fun to wait for it and whatever reason the devs have trumps the player’s fun; gate campers are probably bored too sitting there waiting)
• Stupid skill training queue (if you ever forget to hit apply before you leave you could lose a lot of training time — it should auto-resume some skill training if nothing is being trained)
• There are probably a lot more things that could be added

By that logic i should not lose ships, because losing ships is not fun; in fact i should not lose battles because losing battles is not fun . . .

this now takes the cake for the most terribly moronic post ive ever seen on the forms and i sincerely hope youre either:
1. new to Eve
2. kidding
3. trolling

did you ever consider that some of these things have reasons for being how they are?

Adrenochrome wrote:
For an example, look at the Civilization series and its recent re-design. Civ was never all that accessible to a lot of people because it had non-fun elements in the game. In Civ Revolutions and Civ5 they removed those elements to open up the experience to more people. The way the wonders worked were changed to not have as many benefits that would eventually expire and instead they added more instant benefits, which were ultimately more rewarding.

You realize that Civ 5 is THE MOST complained about civ game to ever come out right? It was totally raked over the coals for spotty game design, terrible AI, dumbing things down and removing features and content.

Adrenochrome wrote:
I think when Eve came out in 2003 it was OK to have more non-fun aspects in a game, but today it’s not. CCP, please challenge the presupposition.

I bet I could find someone who thinks the things YOU do in game are "not fun" should your favorite activities be removed for their sake too?

I just cant even . . .
Words cannot describe how terrible this line of thinking is
Samuel Wess
Doomheim
#17 - 2013-02-26 09:38:30 UTC
I find unpleasant :
Trying to launch drones, and ocasionaly show info on them. Somebody thought its really useful
to put show info option in the same place where Launch drones option used to be IF the drone is packaged.

Spamming lock on a target and not being able to lock it because being invulnerable, warping etc and ending
with my select window closed due to click spam. I would expect to lock something and than my ship trying to
lock the damn thing until that thing is not visible on grid anymore.

Right click menu having random order on options, not being able to find the same option in the same position
even if disabled.

Selected Item Window buttons being enabled while not functional. Most of the time i exit warp and hit approach or orbit
only to find that my ship is sitting still or even being insta popped because I cannot do that (than why is the button enabled ??)

The message 'you cannot do that while warping' even if i am not doing anything. Not really sure if this is still showing :))

Drones not respecting focus fire (why the pretty design on drone option window without proper functioning ??) obviously
investing resources in the wrong direction.

Directional scanner cool down message, I find it annoying it does not show any timer, why not disable the scan button
until its possible to scan again ?

Scanning : I need to have planets and bookmarks on map when probing, however when i try to move the probes around
planets and bm's have priority in mouse over, even the probe names are on top, so i pretty much have to dodge all the
planets and texts on the map to be able to drag a specific arrow on a specific probe. I may be doing it wrong ?





Walk into the club like "What up? I got a big cockpit!"

Mikaila Penshar
SISTAHs of EVE
#18 - 2013-02-26 20:46:25 UTC
OP has never sat through the film "2001, A Space Odyssey" I'm guessing... not everything moves like a first person shooter, kid. Relax and fly a spaceship for a bit, it's tranquil.

Oh, but you got no time fo dat shizz, so what are you posting on the forums for -???- you better get back to skilling up and flying fast frigs and deuling and whatever you do- QUICK.. mom's comin up da stairs to check and see if yer homewerkz done