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NPC AI hurting solo pvp.

Author
Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations
#141 - 2013-02-25 16:56:18 UTC
Tears from Null/Low sec pvp'ers? Say it isn't so.

Posting to confirm there isn't a problem. Adjust and continue to profit.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#142 - 2013-02-25 17:53:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Voidstar
Roderick Grey wrote:

I can adapt yes, I can bring friends, I can not attack targets that has any tank whatsoever, but this damages solo pvp, which is my point.



So requiring that you do *something at all* is damaging to your profession of griefing effectivly defenseless ships? Having 100% of the initiative, probable intel on the fit of your target, and the mechanical advantage of a PvP fit vs a PvE fit isn't enough, you have to have environmental dps assisting you as well? I don't think you are going to get alot of sympathy even from your fellow Mouth Breathing Baby Eaters.

Given that the devs have a stated goal of making pve and pvp fits similar so that the 2 play styles can interact meaningfully, you may want to consider an easier game...
Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din
#143 - 2013-02-25 18:03:34 UTC
Paikis wrote:
The NPC rats will chose to swap to the attacker every time though, due to their hate of EWAR (scram+web). The Tengu could have been in that site killing NPCs for half an hour, and the second you turn a scram on, the rats will swap to you.

This could maybe use some tweaking. Perhaps make scrams and webs, or even just long points immune to this kind of hate?

Can't hold your target down without a point.
Using a point will guarantee you get agro 100% of the time.

Seems to actively discourage ganking.



Yep, this seems to have been a stealth PVP nerf. NPCs will instantly change targets to attack anyone who uses a tackle mod on a player even if it is a cruiser attacking say a vindicator. The argument can not be used that the cruiser (or any other ship) is a more dangerous target, it simply doesnt work that way. The rats will ALWAYS target and attack the new aggressor instead of continuing to attack the person who has been shooting them for who knows how long.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#144 - 2013-02-25 18:06:16 UTC
Rico Minali wrote:
Paikis wrote:
The NPC rats will chose to swap to the attacker every time though, due to their hate of EWAR (scram+web). The Tengu could have been in that site killing NPCs for half an hour, and the second you turn a scram on, the rats will swap to you.

This could maybe use some tweaking. Perhaps make scrams and webs, or even just long points immune to this kind of hate?

Can't hold your target down without a point.
Using a point will guarantee you get agro 100% of the time.

Seems to actively discourage ganking.



Yep, this seems to have been a stealth PVP nerf. NPCs will instantly change targets to attack anyone who uses a tackle mod on a player even if it is a cruiser attacking say a vindicator. The argument can not be used that the cruiser (or any other ship) is a more dangerous target, it simply doesnt work that way. The rats will ALWAYS target and attack the new aggressor instead of continuing to attack the person who has been shooting them for who knows how long.

So, wait for the NPC to leave, OR use a ship tough enough to handle it.

Your attack plan seems to be based around the failure of a PvE pilot to fly a ship capable of handling both the NPC as well as the player threat at the same time.
Why should you expect better results if you have that same failure?
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#145 - 2013-02-25 18:11:30 UTC
Is it so hard to wait for the players to be done with the sites and then kill them?

or wait maybe you could you know... take advantage that by the time you warp in his tank must be half broken and just finish the npc job and warp away?

most of time you find a player on a site his shields or armor will be by half and his capacitor at 40% they are crippled and weakened ships that most likely have half loaded banks and are not even paying attention.

asking or easier targets its going way too far.

also a properly fitted PVP ship will easily tank the npcs for a while along with the ****** up mission runner

or is it that maybe you are trying to kill a drake with a ******* frigate and want the npcs to help you with their DPS?
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#146 - 2013-02-25 18:24:00 UTC
Rico Minali wrote:


Yep, this seems to have been a stealth PVP nerf. NPCs will instantly change targets to attack anyone who uses a tackle mod on a player even if it is a cruiser attacking say a vindicator. The argument can not be used that the cruiser (or any other ship) is a more dangerous target, it simply doesnt work that way. The rats will ALWAYS target and attack the new aggressor instead of continuing to attack the person who has been shooting them for who knows how long.



Or we can call it a sort of PvE buff. I know, EVE is all about PvP, and PvE boats should wither and die at the approach of a PvP ship's aggressive intention, but there are a great many pilots that enjoy exploring and exploiting the environment that CCP started to build into this game but then pretty much dropped all development on it in favor of the PvP stuff.


As a PvE pilot, I also despise this version of the AI, because it eats drones like candy making my prefered ships all but useless except in PvP, where they were never that well suited due to smartbombs and people just shooting my damage out of space.

Bottom line is that the AI needed, and still needs, fixing--- and a good deal of that fix involves things not attached to the AI directly, like making drones WAAAAAAAAAAAY tougher than they are, or at least alot less hittable, adding in some aggro mechanics probably in the form of new Ewar to attract or re-direct target locks, allowing larger ships to tank for smaller ships based on signiture size (Frigate hugs up to a BS and shots directed at the frig hit the BS instead), and/or a whole host of new things that EVE should have had long ago had any Devs thought that PvE was worth anything if someone wasn't shooting you over it.

Part of your loadout when hunting ratters should obviously be some way to handle the rats. You should have options other than tank it, though that should be viable (most rats do the same damage they are weak against, so your opponent will often be doing the same damage as the rats if they have the option--plan accordingly). If you had a way to shed target locks, or hide in the shadow of your larget target, or redirect your locks to your target, etc, the game would be more fun because more options on doing a thing means more fun getting it done.
Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations
#147 - 2013-02-25 19:55:30 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
Is it so hard to wait for the players to be done with the sites and then kill them?

or wait maybe you could you know... take advantage that by the time you warp in his tank must be half broken and just finish the npc job and warp away?


most of time you find a player on a site his shields or armor will be by half and his capacitor at 40% they are crippled and weakened ships that most likely have half loaded banks and are not even paying attention.

asking or easier targets its going way too far.

also a properly fitted PVP ship will easily tank the npcs for a while along with the ****** up mission runner

or is it that maybe you are trying to kill a drake with a ******* frigate and want the npcs to help you with their DPS?


This!! Adapt and you can continue to prosper.
Pan Dora
Stardust Enterprises
#148 - 2013-02-26 00:10:52 UTC

while I agree there is much fail to PVPer being killed by NPCs there is no way someone in his right mind considering the new AI (maybe it stands for Artificial Ignorance?) is working as intended. (maybe they think "This game mechanic its broken but i will not complain since its helping me")

If the idea its to make NPC act more like players CCP need to consider:

-player will not put dozen eWar/tackle modules on one target while letting another target free to decimate your entire fleet
-player will not put all BS sized guns against frigs for ****** to no damage while there is bigger target that can be killed fast. Even more if there is dessies/ceptor/afs to deal with this kind of threat in their fleet.
-players will see a big difference between "tackle/eWar/DPS on me" and "tackle/eWar/DPS on my target"
-players will avoid being killed (usually warping off, but sometimes getting under the guns or just burning away from who is dealing damage on then).

Im not proposing any specific behavior for NPC, that its up to CCP to figure, but there is no doubt the actual AI its broken in many ways.









-CCP would boost ECM so it also block the ability of buthurt posting.

Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#149 - 2013-02-26 02:04:58 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Rico Minali wrote:


Yep, this seems to have been a stealth PVP nerf. NPCs will instantly change targets to attack anyone who uses a tackle mod on a player even if it is a cruiser attacking say a vindicator. The argument can not be used that the cruiser (or any other ship) is a more dangerous target, it simply doesnt work that way. The rats will ALWAYS target and attack the new aggressor instead of continuing to attack the person who has been shooting them for who knows how long.



Or we can call it a sort of PvE buff. I know, EVE is all about PvP, and PvE boats should wither and die at the approach of a PvP ship's aggressive intention, but there are a great many pilots that enjoy exploring and exploiting the environment that CCP started to build into this game but then pretty much dropped all development on it in favor of the PvP stuff.


As a PvE pilot, I also despise this version of the AI, because it eats drones like candy making my prefered ships all but useless except in PvP, where they were never that well suited due to smartbombs and people just shooting my damage out of space.

Bottom line is that the AI needed, and still needs, fixing--- and a good deal of that fix involves things not attached to the AI directly, like making drones WAAAAAAAAAAAY tougher than they are, or at least alot less hittable, adding in some aggro mechanics probably in the form of new Ewar to attract or re-direct target locks, allowing larger ships to tank for smaller ships based on signiture size (Frigate hugs up to a BS and shots directed at the frig hit the BS instead), and/or a whole host of new things that EVE should have had long ago had any Devs thought that PvE was worth anything if someone wasn't shooting you over it.

Part of your loadout when hunting ratters should obviously be some way to handle the rats. You should have options other than tank it, though that should be viable (most rats do the same damage they are weak against, so your opponent will often be doing the same damage as the rats if they have the option--plan accordingly). If you had a way to shed target locks, or hide in the shadow of your larget target, or redirect your locks to your target, etc, the game would be more fun because more options on doing a thing means more fun getting it done.


Havving read all your misguided thoughts on this subject, I am saddened but not surprised to see you promulgate this list of idiocy as a fix to the AI.

Yes, it sucks that your drones get eaten if you are in a lone sentry domi. But making drones tougher and harder to hit isn't a solution except versus rats, which it seems, is all you know how to do (and yes, this is me disparaging your ability as an EVE player). It is already hard enough to burn drones off you in PVP, so making them harder targets is dumb. You will realise this when you are damped out by a Maulus and killed by his drones, unable to do anything. Well, if you ever stop carebearing.

The idea of shots directed at a frigate missing it and hitting the BS it's orbiting? Yeah, sounds like a great recipe for derp. "Oh halp guise I is tackuld by dwamiel, shewt at heem!" you will say, as you herpaderp in a belt. Your mates in tornados warp in to help you, and shoot at the evil Dramiel, and hit you instead, instapopping you. herpaderp.

Your idea of target redirection is interesting. So, you fit one, and the rat aggro switches away. Your foes fit one, and you are back to square one. Falcon fits one, and when you do manage to lock him, you end up locking an asteroid instead. EVE HAS BEEN WON BY YOU!!!

Your solutions to the problem outlined by the OP decribes are irrelevant, idiotic and impractical.

I agree with the OP, by the by. previously when you went hunting in nullsec for carriers, with a gang, you would send in a ship to grab point, and then spike into Local to effect the gank. Arazus were great, so were cloaky T3's. You only needed to hold point long enough for your gang to warp in.

Now? You can't dare uncloak anything, or send in a solo ship - even if it has a tank - because you will cop the full room aggro, regardless, right up front. The fools saying "fit a tank", well, last time i checked you can't PVP in a PVE ship, and vice versa. Something you are all wilfully ignoring.

So, yes. This is a buff to carebearing. it isn't even about solo PVP, it's about PVE being its own deterrence to gankers, in nullsec.
Samuel Wess
Doomheim
#150 - 2013-02-26 08:17:12 UTC
Solo pvp -ers are too few to matter, and the blobs are paying the subscriptions/plexes so it's
normal that the AI is favouring them. Working as intended.

Walk into the club like "What up? I got a big cockpit!"

Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#151 - 2013-02-26 10:27:21 UTC
Samuel Wess wrote:
Solo pvp -ers are too few to matter, and the blobs are paying the subscriptions/plexes so it's
normal that the AI is favouring them. Working as intended.


Warping in a belt, setting a point on an AFK drake and let the rats do all the job is not "solo PVP", not even close.
It's an entry-level gameplay, riskless and unskilled. Just the fact that when this people have to deal with belt rats (not even missionr ats, just belt rats, lol) it becomes "impossible" for them proves this.

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#152 - 2013-02-26 12:47:58 UTC
One day, we will go a full week without a "revert NPC AI so I can kill ratters easily" thread appearing in F&I.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#153 - 2013-02-26 14:22:25 UTC
File this one with "there's someone in my system and they're hiding so I can't rat!"

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs

Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations
#154 - 2013-02-26 14:37:29 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
File this one with "there's someone in my system and they're hiding so I can't rat!"


Agreed.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#155 - 2013-02-26 16:01:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Voidstar
Trinkets friend wrote:

Yes, it sucks that your drones get eaten if you are in a lone sentry domi. But making drones tougher and harder to hit isn't a solution except versus rats, which it seems, is all you know how to do (and yes, this is me disparaging your ability as an EVE player). It is already hard enough to burn drones off you in PVP, so making them harder targets is dumb. You will realise this when you are damped out by a Maulus and killed by his drones, unable to do anything. Well, if you ever stop carebearing.


I'm not in a sentry Domi, I hate sentries. I've seen people kill mulitple waves of drones with smartbombs easily enough. I don't deny that they can be used, but they are hardly the most dangerous weapon out there. In fact, in your theoretical Malus the thing causing you the most trouble is the damps. I know plenty about using drones, both fighting them and using them.

You should also bear in mind that I don't feel the AI shooting solo gankers is a problem. The AI is a problem, but most of that problem is that it has been introduced in a vacuume with few tools and little regard of how to deal with it.


Trinkets friend wrote:

The idea of shots directed at a frigate missing it and hitting the BS it's orbiting? Yeah, sounds like a great recipe for derp. "Oh halp guise I is tackuld by dwamiel, shewt at heem!" you will say, as you herpaderp in a belt. Your mates in tornados warp in to help you, and shoot at the evil Dramiel, and hit you instead, instapopping you. herpaderp.


That would be one implication of that idea, that a tackler could use his target as cover. What I have in mind is more granular than that--- basing it on signiture size and the resolution of the guns would mean that smaller guns would be less effected, promoting the idea that you match up ship classes against eachother. The further you get out of class, the harder it is to pick out the smaller signiture for the larger one. Your theoretical Tornadoes would be the wrong tool for the job unless substancial effort in the fits went into sensor boosters and such to improve their ability to focus on smaller targets.

This is again less of an idea to fix the AI as it applies to PvP as it is a way of dealing with it's implications when applied to small fleets in PvE, which was hurt just as much for the same reasons. I like to hang out and mission with my friends. We used to be able to fly differently and have had to adapt in a number of ways as well. This idea would allow more agressive fit ships with lighter tanks to be included in my fleets again since we could anchor the fleet on a battlecruiser or battleship as we used to do. I don't mind that the AI switches targets, or tries to chase our frigs down with their frigs, I just want a tool to deal with it other than everybody comes in a ship capable of tanking the whole room at once. I would think this is something you approve of as it would indeed help you to kill big ships with small ships in missions again.

Trinkets friend wrote:

Your idea of target redirection is interesting. So, you fit one, and the rat aggro switches away. Your foes fit one, and you are back to square one. Falcon fits one, and when you do manage to lock him, you end up locking an asteroid instead.


This would again be an idea that would have counters, probably in the form ECCM modules, sensor boosters, or both. If they are going to start introducing AI aggro mechanics then they need to also supply the tools of dealing with that. Other games use abilites that generate and shed aggro, in EVE this would be best represented as forms of Ewar. Rather than deflecting targets at random heavier defended ships in the fleet could use Ewar that redirected locks onto themselves. An aggressive version could deflect locks onto a chosen enemy ship. I don't deny that this would play havoc as people would have to watch what they shoot at, fit themselves to deal with it, and in general do more than lock and fire.

Once again, this is more focused on PvE, as a way of dealing with the new AI. It would be useful for PvP as well, but just as you care nothing for carebears, I really care little for gankers as well. I'm willing to come to the table and discuss ideas to improve everybodies game, but I am not willing to pay to be your chew toy.

Trinkets friend wrote:

Now? You can't dare uncloak anything, or send in a solo ship - even if it has a tank - because you will cop the full room aggro, regardless, right up front. The fools saying "fit a tank", well, last time i checked you can't PVP in a PVE ship, and vice versa. Something you are all wilfully ignoring.


Nope, not ignoring it. You are Wrong. There are 2 primary differences in the 2 playstyles:

1. Tanking. Active Tanks cannot handle the level of DPS a good PvP ship puts out. They are in general built to withstand about half that DPS indefinitely, but the actual hit points are comparatively thin, so once you break that they usually go down pretty quick. They also usually have a sizable hole in their resists since to achieve that high level of resistance to the rat they don't have the option of fitting omni. The thicker buffer tanks of PvP ships completely outclass an active tank in the short term fights that usually happen in PvP.

2. The use of Ewar and Cap Warfare. Ewar, and all the ships bonused for it, are pretty much useless in PvE where you face hordes of enemies that are immune to it's effects and you could only affect a few of them anyway. As a result much of Ewar is ignored by carebears unless they are fighting a group that makes extensive use of it, and even then the nature of NPC rats makes such measures useless and they usually just endure it and/or make use of tatics that mitigate the effect. Against single targets in PvP it's very powerful.

You could PvP in a PvE ship, but the fights would no longer be one sided.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#156 - 2013-02-26 20:25:45 UTC
I will add that since the devs have stated they want PvE and PvP closer together and able to interact meaningfully, you will likely see more of this sort of thing.

Compromise means both sides have to move, and a good compromise leaves all parties feeling like they have been shafted.

It's a founding tennant of EVE that nonconsensual PvP will happen, this is what allows the Mouth Breathing Baby Eaters in this game the freedom to grief as they do without real consequence. Now we are seeing the flipside: nonconsensual PvE.

Just as I am expected to compromise my PvE fits to handle PvP in areas where that is more likely to happen, so too will the gankers be expected to compromise their PvP fit within mission pockets and such. No longer can you ignore the environment while your target has to somehow contend with both elements of the game---almost always by simply quitting their game in favor of yours with an end result of no one having fun.

In the end it is likely a healthy change for the game, though as I've pointed out it's an imcomplete project at this point. There is much more that needs to be done in terms of the AI's behavior and how we interact and influence that behavior.

The main difference here is that while I agree that the AI and surrounding systems are broken, I disagree on how it's broken and what should be done to bring it to where it should be.

Quote:
The fools saying "fit a tank", well, last time i checked you can't PVP in a PVE ship, and vice versa. Something you are all wilfully ignoring.


This statement cuts both ways. If I can't be expected to PvP in a PvE ship, why should the ganker expect to enter into a PvE area and fare any better? This isn't wilfull ignorance, this is balancing the scales. The work isn't done yet--You should not be getting the whole room just from warping in or decloaking. However you can expect to be rolled the moment you start displaying things like any form of Ewar, because everyone knows you primary Ewar and Logistics first. Your fit and playstyle will have to be altered to take into account the environments rules and conditions, just as the bear has to alter and take into account the possiblity of a PvP encounter.
HazeInADaze
Safari Hunt Club
Sanctus Cor
#157 - 2013-02-28 18:01:07 UTC
It is a bit much to expect a PvP ship to handle a pve site.

In most situations a combat pilot must jump deep into hostile space to a densely populated cluster and then find, tackle, and destroy a heavily tanked ship while taking fire from the entire complex plus the PvE ship. So you need a ship with a heavy tank, an ability to avoid other combat fleets, and enough DPS to kill a ship that has the ability to tank an entire complex.

The risk of PvE has always been other pilots killing you. Now, with the exception of bridge fleets, there is no really successful way to engage a PvE ship without a tonne of luck. And before all these changes, back when ratting was done in a belt, an alert PvE pilot was almost completely uncatchable.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#158 - 2013-02-28 18:05:52 UTC
This again? Stop posting the same idea weeks later. Poor way to campaign your poor idea.

Adapt to the changes in the NPC AI, or don't. Your choice.

Thank you.
HazeInADaze
Safari Hunt Club
Sanctus Cor
#159 - 2013-02-28 18:14:17 UTC
Sol Weinstein wrote:
This again? Stop posting the same idea weeks later. Poor way to campaign your poor idea.

Adapt to the changes in the NPC AI, or don't. Your choice.

Thank you.


I think a lot of people have adapted. Cloak cyno ships logged on 23/7 is the adaptation.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#160 - 2013-02-28 18:22:25 UTC
HazeInADaze wrote:
Sol Weinstein wrote:
This again? Stop posting the same idea weeks later. Poor way to campaign your poor idea.

Adapt to the changes in the NPC AI, or don't. Your choice.

Thank you.


I think a lot of people have adapted. Cloak cyno ships logged on 23/7 is the adaptation.


Huh?

Thank you.