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Anti stealth scanning probes

First post
Author
Liriel Semah
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2013-02-25 12:14:35 UTC
I don't know if something like this has been proposed before, so here is the deal.

First what I think is the problem and then an idea for a solution to this:

At least in null sec (maybe in low sec too if people really rat there which I don't know) cloacky stealth campers are a big problem because one of them can lock down a whole system.
For people not living in null this usually happens the following way. Someone in a stealth bomber with a cyno and a covert cyno fitted enters a system that is used by many people for ratting. He then sits there somewhere cloacked so no one can find him and waits until he sees jucy targets. When he finds some he warps there, tackels and opens one of his cynos so his friends waiting on the other side can jump in and kill everyone on the other side.
The people ratting in the system basically have to options, trying to bait him or leaving the system and rat somewhere else.
Trying to bait him is very difficult because most wont fall for it and even if they do they just have to return with a new cheap SB and with the additional info now who baited.
Ratting somewhere else gets difficult when there are many stealth cloackers in diffrent systems and a lot of people trying to rat because you run out of systems fast.
Just ratting in a group to be safe doesn't work because the camper can allways adept in how many people he brdiges in.

Ok, first I don't have a general problem with this, because it would be stupid if large alliances could shut down their space completly for enemies and do their stuff without getting bothered at all.
What I don't like is that the cloacky campers can do their stuff unbothered. Someone can do this with an alt, place him in a system and while he sits there play with his main or do something completly diffrent and only has to take a look at his camper every 10, 30 or 60 minutes to check if there is a target he can go after.
I would like it better if he actually has to pay attention and put some effort into camping the system.

So my idea is to add a new kind of scanner probes that can find cloacked targets. With this people can scan for a cloacked ships and warp there to try decloacking it. If the cloaked player pays attention and looks at his d-scan he will see the probes and warp aways so the probers won't find him. With this the cloacker has to pay attention and other people actually have a chance of finding him if he doesn't.

There could also be a new probe launcher that is needed to use these probes and can't use any other probes if it was to powerfull if an expanded launcher could use these.


TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#2 - 2013-02-25 12:31:26 UTC
Liriel Semah wrote:
I don't know if something like this has been proposed before, so here is the deal.


It has, a thousand times. There's a search box you know.
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#3 - 2013-02-25 12:32:38 UTC
Liriel Semah wrote:
I don't know if something like this has been proposed before,


Of course it wasn't

Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#4 - 2013-02-25 12:40:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Sura Sadiva
It's always the same individual reposting always the same "new idea" with an NPC alt to make think a lot of people is for it.

Nerf these AFK poster alts!


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_G65uMbgx0rY/TCeN3u0Fd1I/AAAAAAAAAP8/WbKMA3FLQDI/s1600/alts.jpg
Liriel Semah
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2013-02-25 13:05:44 UTC
Nope sry not the same poster as in the other tread. But you are right that I didn't use the search function before posting Oops

Maybe a mod can merge these two threads because I think I described it better why this is a problem, so it maybe (probably a huge maybe) stops useless side discussion like "people who are afk are no thread" or "in wh space you don't even see them so its no problem in null" and so on.
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
#6 - 2013-02-25 13:52:15 UTC
Why would we even have cloak if you can just probe them down?
Put your own cloaky scouts at the acceleration gates

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}

CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#7 - 2013-02-25 13:52:26 UTC
Removed a troll from this post.

EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative ※ EVE Illuminati ※ Fiction Adept

@CCP_Eterne ※ @EVE_LiveEvents

Evanga
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2013-02-25 13:56:36 UTC
ok ill be more informative now.

It is a bad plan, it has been proposed dozens of time, but it will simply not work.

Because, you do not know if that person is AFK or not. Ppl here nowadays assume someone is afk by default when he or she is cloaked up.

And again, if you are unable to make isk with a neut in system you either move next door. There are plenty of ways to make isk in eve...you just have to put a little effort in it.

And thats basically my conclusion, you want risk free isk making.
Liriel Semah
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2013-02-25 14:04:53 UTC
Evanga wrote:
ok ill be more informative now.

It is a bad plan, it has been proposed dozens of time, but it will simply not work.

Because, you do not know if that person is AFK or not. Ppl here nowadays assume someone is afk by default when he or she is cloaked up.

And again, if you are unable to make isk with a neut in system you either move next door. There are plenty of ways to make isk in eve...you just have to put a little effort in it.

And thats basically my conclusion, you want risk free isk making.

Sorry but I don't understand this reply if you actually read my whole post. I know its a long wall of text but I went a bit more into detail to prevent such generic answers.

I'm not asuming anyone is afk, because if you do you die.
I said someone can do this taktic by being mostly afk and thats when you should have a chance to get him.

If he is not, but is activly camping the system then you still won't get him and thats good because having a cloack should give you an advantage.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#10 - 2013-02-25 14:17:40 UTC
Before we discuss nerfing cloaks, maybe you could answer the following question for me please.

Whilst they are cloaked and AFK, what mechanic are they using to interact with you?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#11 - 2013-02-25 14:30:38 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Before we discuss nerfing cloaks, maybe you could answer the following question for me please.

Whilst they are cloaked and AFK, what mechanic are they using to interact with you?


Local Twisted

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm

Hurtini Hilitari
Doomheim
#12 - 2013-02-25 14:32:14 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Before we discuss nerfing cloaks, maybe you could answer the following question for me please.

Whilst they are cloaked and AFK, what mechanic are they using to interact with you?


Local Twisted


Was gonna say that myself lol
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#13 - 2013-02-25 14:32:40 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Before we discuss nerfing cloaks, maybe you could answer the following question for me please.

Whilst they are cloaked and AFK, what mechanic are they using to interact with you?


Local Twisted

It is funny that all AFK cloaking problems stem back to Local o.O

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-02-25 14:34:33 UTC
Liriel Semah wrote:

First what I think is the problem and then an idea for a solution to this:

At least in null sec (maybe in low sec too if people really rat there which I don't know) cloacky stealth campers are a big problem because one of them can lock down a whole system.


Gee and here I let my self be dragged in this thing again.

I'll tell you why this isn't a problem in low sec, or in 0.0 npc space or that matter. In low and 0.0 NPC space the "AFK Cloaker" can just as easy, sit in a station lull you to sleep and come out when you're not expecting him anymore.

And in low and NPC 0.0 there are large amounts of reds at anytime.

These are threats that are all eliminated from your 0.0 Souvrain system, the only thing left is the cloaked ship.

This is how we handle these things in less safe area's, we form a fleet, when one is attacked the fleets warps in and destroys the gankers. either black-ops or normal ships. Yes usualy the one that is ganked still looses his ship, though you're quite safe from that group concerning new attacks bacuase they usualy pay dearly for that one attack.

It might be wise to park the faction fitted Chrismas tree and get a slightly less valuable ratter out while ratting.


Your probe launcher will be standard equipment at every gate in EVE and stop travel as a whole, not mentioning destroying WH-space.

The real problem is that the fear of being ganked stops you from maximising your profit, because local tells you someone is out there.

And all the so called solutions to AFK cloaking come down to a nerf to cloak weither you are AFK or not.
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#15 - 2013-02-25 14:34:36 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Before we discuss nerfing cloaks, maybe you could answer the following question for me please.

Whilst they are cloaked and AFK, what mechanic are they using to interact with you?


Local Twisted

It is funny that all AFK cloaking problems stem back to Local o.O


It seems to be the case. Or thats how I have started to see it. No local no problem but then cloakers would get a huge advantage unless probes would be implied into the game.

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm

Mag's
Azn Empire
#16 - 2013-02-25 14:39:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Before we discuss nerfing cloaks, maybe you could answer the following question for me please.

Whilst they are cloaked and AFK, what mechanic are they using to interact with you?


Local Twisted

It is funny that all AFK cloaking problems stem back to Local o.O


It seems to be the case. Or thats how I have started to see it. No local no problem but then cloakers would get a huge advantage unless probes would be implied into the game.

Oh agreed, you cannot simply remove local. It would make cloaks far too OP.
This would need to be done in a package of changes, with changes to cloaks included.

I just want the OP to understand the cause, rather than focus on the effect.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Liriel Semah
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2013-02-25 14:57:45 UTC
Mag's wrote:

I just want the OP to understand the cause, rather than focus on the effect.

The "problem" though is that we have local and tbh I think its good that we have it because without it even fewer people would dare to move to null sec.
And imho you can't compare this to wh space because at least to my knowledge you can't hotdrop there. Just because having no local in wh space works well there doesn't mean it works in null too because both spaces are working very diffrently as a whole.

And adding some new probes to the game is a very minor effort instead of reworking the whole game mechanic

Mike Whiite wrote:

This is how we handle these things in less safe area's, we form a fleet, when one is attacked the fleets warps in and destroys the gankers. either black-ops or normal ships. Yes usualy the one that is ganked still looses his ship, though you're quite safe from that group concerning new attacks bacuase they usualy pay dearly for that one attack.

The problem with baiting that way is that a smart cloackers won't engage you because he saw your waiting fleet in system or worse he got some more friends to hotdrop you and kill your whole defense fleet.
If your defense fleet is waiting in the next system or docked your bait will probably be dead and the attackers gone before you reach them.
SoOza N'GasZ
L F C
Ethereal Dawn
#18 - 2013-02-25 14:57:50 UTC
without cloak wormhole gameplay would be hell

but maybe posses could have mods that decloak a cloaked ship after 3 days or so?

Legba

Mag's
Azn Empire
#19 - 2013-02-25 15:06:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Liriel Semah wrote:
Mag's wrote:

I just want the OP to understand the cause, rather than focus on the effect.

The "problem" though is that we have local and tbh I think its good that we have it because without it even fewer people would dare to move to null sec.
And imho you can't compare this to wh space because at least to my knowledge you can't hotdrop there. Just because having no local in wh space works well there doesn't mean it works in null too because both spaces are working very diffrently as a whole.

And adding some new probes to the game is a very minor effort instead of reworking the whole game mechanic
You have local, but think you are the only one that can take advantage of it's intel? Sorry, but you're wrong if that's the case.
As local is the mechanic being used, why haven't you suggested ways to nerf the cause instead?

I didn't mention WH space, but probes would harm life there for sure.

You say adding probes would be a minor effort, but answer me this. Why should you get even more intel, on top of the already powerful local intel channel? Why do you think this is in anyway, a balanced approach?

Don't expect us to agree to a cloak nerf, when you don't even consider local being changed.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#20 - 2013-02-25 15:08:44 UTC
Liriel Semah wrote:
[The problem with baiting that way is that a smart cloackers won't engage you because he saw your waiting fleet in system or worse he got some more friends to hotdrop you and kill your whole defense fleet.
If your defense fleet is waiting in the next system or docked your bait will probably be dead and the attackers gone before you reach them.



If they won't engage you, than you can just go on with what you are doing.


On the second part, you mean the attackers can react on you actions, realy?? Well I guess you have astablished that the Cloaker wasn't AFK then.

because he seemed to have a keen eye on fleet movements and that is exactly what covert-opps where made for gathering intelligence.

Again all is brought back to your fear of a person being there and you don't know what he is doing.

Fleet up stay alligned, pay attention and don't use your most fancy ship to do your ratting, if that is to much, there are very nice 0.7 to 1.0 systems where you can rat a little more safe.

Welcome to EVE
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