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Cloak Detection Probes

First post
Author
Lillith Sakata
Violence is the Answer
Wormhole Society
#1 - 2013-02-24 16:42:56 UTC
I've sat in my Covert bomber or Cyno scout in enemy space quite a bit. In some ways it's funny that I can sit there in enemy space, ruining their mining, hauling, and ratting. I tend to move around and stuff, so this idea probably wouldn't effect me one bit, I'll admit.

My proposal has to do with stopping one specific type of cloaky-camper: The AFK campers that sit all day, most likely macro-pressing the D-Scan button, waiting for easy targets to bomb/torp/drop.

It would also make it so that prolonged nuisances that do this for days or weeks-on-end would go away.

I have a few ideas for this -- some have already been suggested, such as a cloak nullification weapon (smart-bomb style), and a few other ones that IMHO seem a bit... useless, or overpowered.

So I think I have an idea to stop this: Cloak Detection Probes.

The way I am thinking that they would work is this: They can ONLY detect cloaking fields. Not drones, not celestials, no signatures. Just cloaked ships.

The use of these probes would be as follows: You'd scan the system, and it would detect any active cloaking fields (ships). It would not detect the ship type, or anything, just that there is a cloaked object. Once 100% locked, I had two ideas, one being more useful (but possibly OP) than the other.

The first idea is the simplest: make a bookmark, and just warp a few people to get the drop on the cloaked ship -- the issue is that it is WAY too easy to get around this as a cloaker. Just warp away and re-cloak, laughing at them while they try to catch you.

The second is that the probes would have a "cloak disruption generator" that once locked onto a cloaking device, can disrupt the device for a certain period of time -- not too long for those that are actively watching, but long enough that if they aren't smart, or just warp around blindly, they'll be able to be caught. Something between 5 and 15 minutes for the cloaking device to re-calibrate itself seems like a fair time, so they have the chance to chase me around (and possibly actually catch me...), while I wait for the cloak to come online again so I can get outta dodge.

The idea for this device springs from some need to counter my own and other's activities. As it currently stands, cloaking ships are literally undetectable, and cannot be countered in any way. I can strike a target, get a nice kill and possibly very good loot, and just cloak back up and wait for the next to show up, with not a care in the world.. This is just too OP.
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#2 - 2013-02-24 16:59:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2643021

In addition to all suggestions ^ (yours was discussed already in linked thread):

As a solution make cloaking modules cycle-based with cycle time 10 min - problem of AFK cloakers solved. Using cloak while it is active will cancel its effect and cycle is reset. No disbalance for WH dwellers or active cloaky pilots.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.

Lillith Sakata
Violence is the Answer
Wormhole Society
#3 - 2013-02-24 17:22:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Lillith Sakata
That isn't exactly the same exact idea, and really wouldn't be a feasible idea anyways. Covert Ops is generally already to 4 if you're a bomber/scout. So I'd just get CO 5 and be un-probable again.

Also an addition to the probes and their use: Unusable in WH space due to Sleeper interference. WH problem solved.

I do not agree that it should take a specific ship, as that would add yet another whole set of issues, and require a good amount of training to make even remotely usable.

The point isn't to make cloaking useless, or make de-cloaking too OP, or too nerfed. As a pilot who regularly scouts and such, I think the probe charges idea would be useful, *accessible*, and yet not too overpowered.

Also, as a programmer, I'd prefer to keep things as simple as possible on the development side of things. There would be no need for another special use ship to be introduced, modeled, textured, balanced, rebalanced, and so on.

It would be a probe that requires no/little texturing. The hardest thing to do would be to code it to only detect ships with a cloaking module installed (and active), which I'm not sure CCP would really want to do, but thought I'd suggest either way.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#4 - 2013-02-24 17:31:14 UTC
I guess searching the forum was out of the question, before posting?

Anyway before we discuss your cloak nerf, please answer the following question.

Whilst pilots are cloaked and AFK, what mechanic are they using to interact with you?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Lillith Sakata
Violence is the Answer
Wormhole Society
#5 - 2013-02-24 17:52:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Lillith Sakata
Mag's wrote:
I guess searching the forum was out of the question, before posting?

Anyway before we discuss your cloak nerf, please answer the following question.

Whilst pilots are cloaked and AFK, what mechanic are they using to interact with you?



Yes, I did search the forum, and nothing came across as quite balanced with AFK/mutiboxing clients, and active cloakers that are sitting and watching everything. Either the ideas were too broad, required too much coding, or favored one side or the other.

I think it would add more elements of surprise and tactical thought, as well as make cloaking more fun... and more balanced.

It has nothing to do with 'how they interact'. If a ship is completely invulnerable it is OP. I say this with some dignity as I'm one of the people BEING cloaked up. Not just some carebear or nullbear whining about cloaking hot-droppers.

Unless you have a valid suggestion or refinement to the proposed idea, and just want to ask about how someone else is playing or whatever so you can play politics or complain about how its their fault, then please keep the comments to yourself.

If you have an argument about how this would be too overpowered, or suggestions to make sure that it is not favoring one side or the other, then please, I'd love to hear suggestions. The problem with most of these posts is you have carebears whining one way, the people bombing the carebears dishing out too much "STFU and go home to highsec", or saying that an AFK cloaker is harmless. All cloakers are dangerous, and you can't tell if they are AFK or not.

I want to find a balance that doesn't overdo it on either end. I *like* being able to cloak, pick targets, drop my covert cyno here and there for really juicy targets, bomb the crap out of fleets, etc. And I want CCP to be able to take the ideas seriously.

The problem is that ANY cloaker, regardless of skill, AFK / multibox / active play-styles is *completely* undetectable, un-engageable, and therefore invulnerable. To me this is unacceptable. I've been sitting in two systems, cloaked up, and no-one can do a damn thing about it. And since they don't know if I'm AFK (though they know I'm cyno and torp fit by now), they can't rat, mine, or anything. It is partly funny that I can basically shut a system completely down with absolutely no risk to myself. That isn't right.

BTW, on top of this, I know that their mining indices will be triggering soon for their few hidden clusters. They're going to lose all of them. They probably won't even get one hidden belt at this rate. So not only am I disrupting a few miners and ratters, I'm screwing the local economy and effecting many players. With just one covert fit torp bomber. And they can't do anything about it.
Yugin Saeryn
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-02-24 18:11:45 UTC
I'm just not a fan of invulnerability in null space while cloaked, especially with the added ability to instantly drop in "x" number of new pilots. If you can be a threat to me, I should be able to be a threat to you.
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#7 - 2013-02-24 18:18:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Lillith Sakata wrote:
That isn't exactly the same exact idea, and really wouldn't be a feasible idea anyways. Covert Ops is generally already to 4 if you're a bomber/scout. So I'd just get CO 5 and be un-probable again.

Also an addition to the probes and their use: Unusable in WH space due to Sleeper interference. WH problem solved.

Should've read discussion and not only 1st post, but w/e.

Quote:
Whilst pilots are cloaked and AFK, what mechanic are they using to interact with you?

General rule is: if you want to go AFK in space - log off or be prepared to find yourself in new clone when you return. Cloaking is the only exception for that rule for some unjustified reason and that is why it should be corrected.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.

Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#8 - 2013-02-24 18:40:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Destination SkillQueue
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Lillith Sakata wrote:
That isn't exactly the same exact idea, and really wouldn't be a feasible idea anyways. Covert Ops is generally already to 4 if you're a bomber/scout. So I'd just get CO 5 and be un-probable again.

Also an addition to the probes and their use: Unusable in WH space due to Sleeper interference. WH problem solved.

Should've read discussion and not only 1st post, but w/e.

Quote:
Whilst pilots are cloaked and AFK, what mechanic are they using to interact with you?

General rule is: if you want to go AFK in space - log off or be prepared to find yourself in new clone when you return. Cloaking is the only exception for that rule for some unjustified reason and that is why it should be corrected.

Who made up these rules and where are they written down? Or are these rules just common sense guidelines where it's generally a bad idea to go AFK in dangerous space and leave your ship floating there without safeguards? Such rules don't dictate how game design should be done.

As for justifications, cloaking is necessary for scouts, ambushing, deep space explorers and any kind of hiding really and is well balanced thanks to your inability to interact with anything while you're cloaked. I also don't see how the game is going to be improved by forcing everyone to log off instead of cloaking and I certainly don't want to ruin cloaking just because some players are scared to death of AFK cloakers.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#9 - 2013-02-24 19:03:37 UTC
If you insist you have the right to free intel, then let's balance it to be fair and even more useful.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=186549

And don't forget, without free cloaking awareness, it becomes practical to be able to use effort to counter cloaks.
(Amazing Intelâ„¢ has no effort, and cloaking does. Hunting them with a free tool helping can not be balanced as a result)
Lillith Sakata
Violence is the Answer
Wormhole Society
#10 - 2013-02-24 19:13:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Lillith Sakata
Quote:
As for justifications, cloaking is necessary for scouts, ambushing, deep space explorers and any kind of hiding really and is well balanced thanks to your inability to interact with anything while you're cloaked. I also don't see how the game is going to be improved by forcing everyone to log off instead of cloaking and I certainly don't want to ruin cloaking just because some players are scared to death of AFK cloakers.


And why are they scared of AFK cloakers? Perhaps because they aren't AFK? Or because they *could* be afk. I just got 4 kills from being 'possibly AFK'. And it isn't because they weren't paying attention. As soon as I landed they started to warp off. One Covert Cyno and <5 seconds later, they're all warp jammed, and torped to death. All this while I'm ratting at home, happily making 10-20m/tick. Meanwhile my mates are all off back to wait for the next person to call for a drop, and I've been restocked with fuel.

Seriously, this is broken. They CANNOT do anything about it. I'm happily floating around waiting for someone else to undock and mine/rat/sit still long enough, while receiving hate tells and lots'o'bounties on my head. The indices are dropping from 5 to nothing before the hidden belts and such respawn -- which means they won't respawn at all....

The idea I proposed would not KILL cloaking. it would make it so that I can't just sit here idle, with them unable to do a freakin' thing about it. At least if I had to worry about someone probing me down and temporarily decloaking me, I'd have to pay more attention to my cloaked alt.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#11 - 2013-02-24 19:18:10 UTC
My self exalted opinion is this is the best balanced way to do it (tho actually making it balanced would take a lot of fine tweaking)

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2643823#post2643823

Pretty much every opinion I've seen is to one of the extremes of either nerfing cloaking into the ground or leaving it so that cloaking can potentially be abused in extreme cases with little counter.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#12 - 2013-02-24 19:22:36 UTC
Lillith Sakata wrote:
Mag's wrote:
I guess searching the forum was out of the question, before posting?

Anyway before we discuss your cloak nerf, please answer the following question.

Whilst pilots are cloaked and AFK, what mechanic are they using to interact with you?
It has nothing to do with 'how they interact'.
It has everything to do with how they interact.
So before discussing your ideas, could you please answer the question?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Lillith Sakata
Violence is the Answer
Wormhole Society
#13 - 2013-02-24 19:23:18 UTC
Rroff wrote:
My self exalted opinion is this is the best balanced way to do it (tho actually making it balanced would take a lot of fine tweaking)

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2643823#post2643823

Pretty much every opinion I've seen is to one of the extremes of either nerfing cloaking into the ground or leaving it so that cloaking can potentially be abused in extreme cases with little counter.



I'm not warping, so they wouldn't see me anyways. Warps last maybe 15 seconds tops. Who the heck wants to sit there and *hope* that the probes catch me warping? It wouldn't change anything.
They don't hold sov here (renters or some crap), so they won't benefit.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#14 - 2013-02-24 19:24:35 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Quote:
Whilst pilots are cloaked and AFK, what mechanic are they using to interact with you?

General rule is: if you want to go AFK in space - log off or be prepared to find yourself in new clone when you return. Cloaking is the only exception for that rule for some unjustified reason and that is why it should be corrected.
Where is this rule written down and who made it?

Maybe you could answer the question I asked?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Grunnax Aurelius
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-02-24 19:44:32 UTC
All of you Nerf the Cloak sympathizers have been hot dropped by Black Ops Corporations one too many times i think, be quiet, cloak mechanics are fine as they are.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread

Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#16 - 2013-02-24 19:46:40 UTC
Claocking has nothing to do with being AFK.

If we want to say that being AFK is in some way not allowed then let's change the game and add some annoying anti-iddle mechanic.

But this have to be done for everyone, not only to bother players using some kind of ship or making our farms unsafe. Of course this mechanism have to work also for people docked in station or in some POS, they should be ejected when found AFK.

In the meantime everyone rights to be AFK are the same.

Renting some null spec space do not give you the right to argue if I go to away from keyboard to eat a sandwitch when I am in "your" stupid farm.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#17 - 2013-02-24 20:00:50 UTC
Lillith Sakata wrote:

I'm not warping, so they wouldn't see me anyways. Warps last maybe 15 seconds tops. Who the heck wants to sit there and *hope* that the probes catch me warping? It wouldn't change anything.
They don't hold sov here (renters or some crap), so they won't benefit.



If your not already on site with them you'd have to warp at some point to engage them, its a bit of a russian roulette if someones already cloaked in a site in system but that also gives a bit of balance to it rather than turning it into highsec safety and diminishes but doesn't negate the impact of afk cloaking, gives the players tools to manage it to some degree.

The length of warp is something that could be difficult to balance but the other bit is pretty much what everyone has to do in wormhole space if they want to carebear with any degree of safety.

The other bit about sov, etc. would need some changing to the mechanics but the basic principle is doable - that a system would need an upgrade for such probes to function - whether they need to have sov also for them to function or if theres some backend lists of allowed corps or whatever is something the developers would have to work on its only the barebones of an idea.
Lillith Sakata
Violence is the Answer
Wormhole Society
#18 - 2013-02-24 21:17:23 UTC
Okay... I think that the topic is getting off course. This doesn't really have as much to do wtih AFK miners, AFK cloakers as much as it does the system camping and basically no recourse. Obviously if I can see how bloody easy it is to be a cloaker, dropping in on people and getting EASY kills, cloaking up, and afk / scanning while I make money on my main account, there is something wrong. I've shut down a system with ONE ship, I've watched as 20-40 man gangs roll through that couldn't do anything about it.

Its boring, and unfair to the receiving end of my wrath.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#19 - 2013-02-24 22:03:08 UTC
Lillith Sakata wrote:
Okay... I think that the topic is getting off course. This doesn't really have as much to do wtih AFK miners, AFK cloakers as much as it does the system camping and basically no recourse. Obviously if I can see how bloody easy it is to be a cloaker, dropping in on people and getting EASY kills, cloaking up, and afk / scanning while I make money on my main account, there is something wrong. I've shut down a system with ONE ship, I've watched as 20-40 man gangs roll through that couldn't do anything about it.

Its boring, and unfair to the receiving end of my wrath.


And when your 20-40 men gangs sit on a bubbled gate killing single pilots enetering in your home system? Is this fun and fair to the reciving end of your wrath? Want to change it too?

Lillith Sakata
Violence is the Answer
Wormhole Society
#20 - 2013-02-24 22:23:05 UTC
Quote:

And when your 20-40 men gangs sit on a bubbled gate killing single pilots enetering in your home system? Is this fun and fair to the reciving end of your wrath? Want to change it too?



There is a topic. Can you stick to that?
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