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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Fix bloody NPC aggro switching

Author
Baron Von Thopperr
State War Academy
Caldari State
#141 - 2013-02-21 02:08:52 UTC
Personaly I like the AI - I mean are not most rats Pirates? Should they not try to gank the weaker tank before breaking the big tank?

I am up for the tweaking of local not a complete removal but a change like say local is blind -- It doesn't tell you how many are in the grid only way you see ppl in the local is if they chat in it Twisted

OP I am not with you completly nor am I against you on this fact -- If target is engaged in a fight with a target the engaged target should not easily switch targets but the ones not shot at activily should be free to target whomever they damn well want
L0rdF1end
Tactical Grace.
Vanguard.
#142 - 2013-02-21 09:34:25 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:


Even so, though, it would make sense for rats not to shoot someone who was:

A) Not shooting them
B) Shooting a player who was shooting them




Bingo!

Thats basically it in a nutshell. My game experience suffers due to non logical changes.

If I didnt care I wouldnt be here complaning.

I'd like to actually understand the reasons behind the changes.

Did they feel that adding a blink to local and having NPC's target the last ship to arrive on grid would essentially encourage more people to belt rat because they felt safer?

Because that's not happening if that was the plan, mainly because ratting is boring.

The game I played as a solo'ist and small gang hunting has taken a huge hit to the point where I now need to completely change the way I play the game or quit.

Why am I a solo'ist?
Not actually through choice. I have a young family and a fulltime job. Finding a time to fleet with friends isnt often possible, For this reason I hunt alone mostly.

I really fail to understand why something enjoyable has been stripped away from the game, quite clearly CCP did not forseee this impact or they didn't care about a small percentage of players or the majority of players bitched about being solo ganked.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#143 - 2013-02-21 10:58:10 UTC
L0rdF1end wrote:

Thats bail to understand why something enjoyable has been stripped away from the game, quite clearly CCP did not forseee this impact or they didn't care about a small percentage of players or the majority of players bitched about being solo ganked.


The reason behind is that the previous AI was totally idiot. Was a 10 years old AI and was already old 10 years ago, Ultima Online has better NPC AI than EVE.

it was not accettable and highly cheatted. I think you can figure out why an AI system based on NPC focusing on the first thing they see and ignoring everything else open the way to never ending PVE exploits, easyer AFK and bots.
And this new AI collected far more "carebears" tears than "gankers" tears...

Is not like the whole gameplay can be shaped on your personal idea of "fun" or adapted to your unability to handle few NPC.
Ganking ratters always been a skilless activity in EVE, any idiot can do it, it's hard as salvaging.

In EvE do not exist a blunt separation PVE/PVP, and it's fine so. A missioner/ratter have to be ready to have someone entering his site and stealing his loot or ganking him. It's an environmental risk. They have to adapt and deal with it.

A pirate/ganker, when enter a PVE site have to adapt and be ready to deal with the envinromental risks related to it.

This is a game, we are all here to play and have fun. Not like other players exists only to feed your personal idea of "fun".


HazeInADaze
Safari Hunt Club
#144 - 2013-02-21 11:39:51 UTC
Rat agro should spread like PvP agro. If you aren't attacking the rats or aiding someone attacking the rats, you aren't deemed a threat to the rats and they don't attack you.

Warping in to get tackle on a plexer only to have to warp out in structure 2 seconds later is a bit ridiculous.
L0rdF1end
Tactical Grace.
Vanguard.
#145 - 2013-02-21 13:23:59 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
[

This is a game, we are all here to play and have fun. Not like other players exists only to feed your personal idea of "fun".




Ermmm, no. That's the complete idea behind a sandbox. You have fun with others within a sandbox environment or you create fun by kicking down someone elses sandcastle.

I understand the grief from both sides caused in relation to the changes.
It doesn't mean that current AI is a finish model and one that works correctly on all accounts.
I have no issue with AI switching as long as its intelligent switching.
Currenlty it is not and it breaks certain aspects of game play that existed before this patch.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#146 - 2013-02-21 14:06:26 UTC
L0rdF1end wrote:

Ermmm, no. That's the complete idea behind a sandbox. You have fun with others within a sandbox environment or you create fun by kicking down someone elses sandcastle.

I understand the grief from both sides caused in relation to the changes.


Sanbox models are a bit more than only this. But yes, what you say is part of it.
Point is: here you (I'm not adressing you perosnally) asking to keep a game mechanic dumb or to be implemented so to allow you to play in easy mode. If all you do come not from your gameplay but from a game mechanic (and if yous ay now is impossible means before was eentirely based on the NPC game mechanic) then THIS is not sandboxy at all.

Rats do not care, they aggress anyone entering their site, outside a storyline or a quest based system there's no reason to expect them taking a side. And no reason to take just YOUR side. They are envinromental elements, like the asteroids: asteroids don't care, if you bump in them your ship slow or stop, no matter if you're a badass pirate or a carebear, it's up to the player to manage to move prooperly.

We are all cool when it's to kick down someone else sandbox but then we whine and ask game mechanics when is our castle to be kicked down. How this?


L0rdF1end wrote:

I have no issue with AI switching as long as its intelligent switching.
Currenlty it is not and it breaks certain aspects of game play that existed before this patch.


And just a case "intelligent" means "helping me instead of him" :)

Do not break anything; simply add some risk and variable (still not enough) to that gameplay.

Want to kill a missioning drake? then have to be better, have to fit and manage to not only outplay in PvP the drake but also to fit properly to deal with the mission site (the drake already did this).

Entering the mission site you're interfering with someone else gameplay, and this is cool in a snadbox, but have also to accept his gameplay (the mission envinroment) to interfering with your. Cannot be all one sided and shaped around your own idea of "fun".



Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#147 - 2013-02-21 15:07:31 UTC
Everything is fine guys, protus can use covert cyno now...


...but seriously, rats DEFENDING the ships that mass murder their brethren every day, while shooting at the one ship that represents a possibility of revenge for their whiskered kind?


This is not more intelligent AI, it is broken AI that was never implemented properly. But please, carebears, tell us more stories where your arch enemy staunchly defends you against anyone coming in to violence you.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#148 - 2013-02-21 15:16:52 UTC
How about this?

You can get the rats AI to ignore you in a fight, but the consequences are that you take a security hit.
After all, you are assisting pirates, and as such bear responsibility for their victory against forces attempting to reduce their number.

Enemy combatants... tsk tsk, the empires frown on that.

Now, if you stick around after, and betray your new allies by trying to kill them, they call in reinforcements against you.
(A full spawn that drops no added loot, they had no time to pick up any on the way over)
Think of it as the reinforcements hate double crossers more than honest enemies.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#149 - 2013-02-21 15:16:54 UTC
Eram Fidard wrote:
Everything is fine guys, protus can use covert cyno now...


...but seriously, rats DEFENDING the ships that mass murder their brethren every day, while shooting at the one ship that represents a possibility of revenge for their whiskered kind?


This is not more intelligent AI, it is broken AI that was never implemented properly. But please, carebears, tell us more stories where your arch enemy staunchly defends you against anyone coming in to violence you.

It's the same mechanism that allows the rats to go after drones, much to the annoyance of many PvE players, requiring those same PvE players to adapt to the new mechanic as well.

It also does away with some interesting PvE fleet techniques as well.

So go ahead and add your tears to the bucket. I need the salt for my popcorn.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#150 - 2013-02-21 15:18:46 UTC
Eram Fidard wrote:
Everything is fine guys, protus can use covert cyno now...


...but seriously, rats DEFENDING the ships that mass murder their brethren every day, while shooting at the one ship that represents a possibility of revenge for their whiskered kind?


This is not more intelligent AI, it is broken AI that was never implemented properly. But please, carebears, tell us more stories where your arch enemy staunchly defends you against anyone coming in to violence you.


They're not defending the first ship, they're simply attacking you instead because *insert reason: you have ewar, you're a weaker target that's easy to clear off the field, whatever*

wormholes have dealt with this for years without filling the tearbuckets
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#151 - 2013-02-21 16:35:28 UTC
Eram Fidard wrote:
Everything is fine guys, protus can use covert cyno now...


...but seriously, rats DEFENDING the ships that mass murder their brethren every day, while shooting at the one ship that represents a possibility of revenge for their whiskered kind?


This is not more intelligent AI, it is broken AI that was never implemented properly. But please, carebears, tell us more stories where your arch enemy staunchly defends you against anyone coming in to violence you.


They're not defending the ratters... they're just attacking you too. Same as if you had warped in first and then they warped in.

It's not like they're repping the ratter now. They may be splitting attention or paying attention to you now, but don't worry, they'll be back on the ratter full time as soon as you're dead or gone.

And in your scenario, how long should they wait for you to attack? They didn't wait on the ratter to fire first. When the ratter got within range they start firing.

Just think of rats as really strict with their not-blue kill it rules. Maybe if your forsake all and go become a mindless drone the Sansha will take you in. But I imagine that would be pretty boring.
Iminent Penance
Your Mom's Boyfriends
#152 - 2013-02-22 03:50:24 UTC
Dear ccp i have a solution, make it so you can generate killmails, or create "pve" play ships people can shoot, but make sure they dont fight back at all thatl make it hard so the gankers can kill and fill important.

Problem solved. Pve can pve and deal with rat aggro, and people who want easy kills get bottlefed as they wish
L0rdF1end
Tactical Grace.
Vanguard.
#153 - 2013-02-22 14:48:36 UTC
Yep, no need to mix PVE with PVP in regards to Rat AI.
Game is broken for us that enjoyed the solo hunt.

Complaining to thin air is what it feels like but I hold the hope that someone important is reading and listening.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#154 - 2013-02-22 16:37:06 UTC
L0rdF1end wrote:
Yep, no need to mix PVE with PVP in regards to Rat AI.
Game is broken for us that enjoyed the solo hunt.

Complaining to thin air is what it feels like but I hold the hope that someone important is reading and listening.

Sorry, but EvE is a PvE game as well as a PvP game.

All isk in the game comes from PvE. No matter how it ended up in your pocket it originated from some mission runner or ratter. If you want to engage those people on their turf you need to adapt your tools and techniques to survive there as well.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs

L0rdF1end
Tactical Grace.
Vanguard.
#155 - 2013-02-22 17:42:12 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
L0rdF1end wrote:
Yep, no need to mix PVE with PVP in regards to Rat AI.
Game is broken for us that enjoyed the solo hunt.

Complaining to thin air is what it feels like but I hold the hope that someone important is reading and listening.


Sorry, but EvE is a PvE game as well as a PvP game.


Really? crap, I didnt know that. Thanks Mr. Obvious.

PVP and PVE coexist clearly otherwise no one would be able to buy a ship.
You are bringing nothing to the conversation.



Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#156 - 2013-02-22 18:02:03 UTC
L0rdF1end wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
L0rdF1end wrote:
Yep, no need to mix PVE with PVP in regards to Rat AI.
Game is broken for us that enjoyed the solo hunt.

Complaining to thin air is what it feels like but I hold the hope that someone important is reading and listening.


Sorry, but EvE is a PvE game as well as a PvP game.


Really? crap, I didnt know that. Thanks Mr. Obvious.

PVP and PVE coexist clearly otherwise no one would be able to buy a ship.
You are bringing nothing to the conversation.




You seemed to be misinformed on the topic, or you wouldn't have said what you did.

Since you claim to have known this already I can just assume that you are malfunctioning in some odd way that you don't recognise the need to deal with the environment you wish to PvP in.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#157 - 2013-02-22 18:10:56 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
How about this?

You can get the rats AI to ignore you in a fight, but the consequences are that you take a security hit.
After all, you are assisting pirates, and as such bear responsibility for their victory against forces attempting to reduce their number.

Enemy combatants... tsk tsk, the empires frown on that.

Now, if you stick around after, and betray your new allies by trying to kill them, they call in reinforcements against you.
(A full spawn that drops no added loot, they had no time to pick up any on the way over)
Think of it as the reinforcements hate double crossers more than honest enemies.

I think this idea is a real winner here, myself.

And the empires would know about your actions, the same way they know to pay bounties on rats.
Rats die because of player = bounty to player
Rats live because of player = sec hit on player
Rats die afterwards = sec hit stays, but they get the bounty too... welcome to ratting!
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#158 - 2013-02-22 19:12:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Onomerous
This thread is great entertainment... PVP'ers asking CCP to make it safer for them to gank PVE'ers. In NS no less!! Along with the cries about AFK cloaking, I'm beginning to think the concept of NS being for the 'real men' is just a bunch of smoke and mirrors!! ;)

Systems appears to be working just fine. Adapt so you can get your kills some other way.
L0rdF1end
Tactical Grace.
Vanguard.
#159 - 2013-02-23 11:36:42 UTC
Onomerous wrote:
This thread is great entertainment... PVP'ers asking CCP to make it safer for them to gank PVE'ers. In NS no less!! Along with the cries about AFK cloaking, I'm beginning to think the concept of NS being for the 'real men' is just a bunch of smoke and mirrors!! ;)

Systems appears to be working just fine. Adapt so you can get your kills some other way.


Glad you enjoy the entertainment, meanwhile I'll continue to request "actual" AI.

If that can't be achieved then a ruleset that doesn't assist one party over the other.
Kleen Enkook
Mal Reynolds' Pool of Recruits
#160 - 2013-02-23 13:22:09 UTC
+1 to OP.
This behavior by the AI is completely illogical and should be fixed. Simply because it's plain stupid.