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AI rats attack wrong ship
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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#61 - 2013-02-22 15:53:17 UTC
How about this?

You can get the rats AI to ignore you in a fight, but the consequences are that you take a security hit.
After all, you are assisting pirates, and as such bear responsibility for their victory against forces attempting to reduce their number.

Enemy combatants... tsk tsk, the empires frown on that.

Now, if you stick around after, and betray your new allies by trying to kill them, they call in reinforcements against you.
(A full spawn that drops no added loot, they had no time to pick up any on the way over)
Think of it as the reinforcements hate double crossers more than honest enemies.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
SoOza N'GasZ
L F C
Ethereal Dawn
#62 - 2013-02-22 18:56:55 UTC
Zen Dad wrote:
My petition was directed here by a Dev. Hope its 'on topic'.
I fly the U boat of Eve the Pilgrim
Just after retribution i tackled a Drake ( it can be done!) in a lo sec radar.
The shock of a sudden de-cloak and the rat damage assists me greatly against superior ships.
However my pilgrim just blew up in record time while i was still trying to launch my hornets to break lock.
I took 48% damage from the the Drake and 52% from the Rats that were initially aggressing the drake
The rats switched aggression to the 'weaker' ship attacking the mighty Drake
Why ? And will this always be so.?

I don't want to risk another ship to test the mechanics.
Essentially my entire game style developed over 2 years is at risk

Any helpful comments and suggestions appreciated

And Merry Christmas to all pilots , docked and in space .



CCP is close to breaking the game.

Legba
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#63 - 2013-02-22 19:03:58 UTC
SoOza N'GasZ wrote:
Zen Dad wrote:
My petition was directed here by a Dev. Hope its 'on topic'.
I fly the U boat of Eve the Pilgrim
Just after retribution i tackled a Drake ( it can be done!) in a lo sec radar.
The shock of a sudden de-cloak and the rat damage assists me greatly against superior ships.
However my pilgrim just blew up in record time while i was still trying to launch my hornets to break lock.
I took 48% damage from the the Drake and 52% from the Rats that were initially aggressing the drake
The rats switched aggression to the 'weaker' ship attacking the mighty Drake
Why ? And will this always be so.?

I don't want to risk another ship to test the mechanics.
Essentially my entire game style developed over 2 years is at risk

Any helpful comments and suggestions appreciated

And Merry Christmas to all pilots , docked and in space .



CCP is close to breaking the game.

You don't kick a man when he is down.

Expecting NPC help to win a fight, more than simply expecting them to ignore you, is not PvP.

It is an attempt to exploit a player under duress for your own benefit. Bring the tools to beat them outside the NPC fight.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#64 - 2013-02-22 19:13:58 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Meditril wrote:
For what reason do you think that rats should not attack you when you uncloak next to them?

Think about it from the perspective of the Rats.

They are fighting a hostile presence. Suddenly a new threat decloaks nearby.

Clearly they cannot risk the new vessel gaining the upper hand. It represents a threat to them, boasting by it's presence it may be intending to kill all others present and loot all.

The rat's AI was already fighting one threat, anything confident enough to join a three way fight either plans to take their kill, or kill everyone.

TL / DR : The new guy represents a greater threat to the AI, in short.


And after the new guy attacks the person they were fighting before, who was slaughtering them by the dozens?
L0rdF1end
Tactical Grace.
Vanguard.
#65 - 2013-02-22 19:20:28 UTC  |  Edited by: L0rdF1end
Michael Harari wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Meditril wrote:
For what reason do you think that rats should not attack you when you uncloak next to them?

Think about it from the perspective of the Rats.

They are fighting a hostile presence. Suddenly a new threat decloaks nearby.

Clearly they cannot risk the new vessel gaining the upper hand. It represents a threat to them, boasting by it's presence it may be intending to kill all others present and loot all.

The rat's AI was already fighting one threat, anything confident enough to join a three way fight either plans to take their kill, or kill everyone.

TL / DR : The new guy represents a greater threat to the AI, in short.


And after the new guy attacks the person they were fighting before, who was slaughtering them by the dozens?


People need to stop making stuff up and suggesting why thats how the rats currently behave.
It is clearly broken.
How about we suggest ways that could make it better/more realistic.

Better to just take the rats out of the equation all together, have the them warp off, or move out and rep up, or attack both parties equally.

Or do the intellgient thing and agress what was/is agressing you, if nothing was/is agressing you choose to fight what the rats believe to be the most threat.

Oh and having a Point should not be classed as a superior threat because if they werent so dumb they would warp off unpointed in the first place before dieing to the ratter.
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#66 - 2013-02-22 19:29:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Onomerous
L0rdF1end wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Meditril wrote:
For what reason do you think that rats should not attack you when you uncloak next to them?

Think about it from the perspective of the Rats.

They are fighting a hostile presence. Suddenly a new threat decloaks nearby.

Clearly they cannot risk the new vessel gaining the upper hand. It represents a threat to them, boasting by it's presence it may be intending to kill all others present and loot all.

The rat's AI was already fighting one threat, anything confident enough to join a three way fight either plans to take their kill, or kill everyone.

TL / DR : The new guy represents a greater threat to the AI, in short.


And after the new guy attacks the person they were fighting before, who was slaughtering them by the dozens?


People need to stop making stuff up and suggesting why thats how the rats currently behave.
It is clearly broken.
How about we suggest ways that could make it better/more realistic.

Better to just take the rats out of the equation all together, have the them warp off, or move out and rep up, or attack both parties equally.

Or do the intellgient thing and agress what was/is agressing you, if nothing was/is agressing you choose to fight what the rats believe to be the most threat.



It's not clearly broken. It is just fine as it is.

Realistic has nothing to do with it.

Want to have some real fun? Try a C4 or higher site!! Then try to gank someone in a C4 WH site!! You can easily get destroyed in 1 to 2 volleys if the sleepers turn on the gankers.
L0rdF1end
Tactical Grace.
Vanguard.
#67 - 2013-02-22 19:37:57 UTC
Onomerous wrote:

It's not clearly broken. It is just fine as it is.

Realistic has nothing to do with it.

Want to have some real fun? Try a C4 or higher site!! Then try to gank someone in a C4 WH site!! You can easily get destroyed in 1 to 2 volleys if the sleepers turn on the gankers.



I've done some wormhole stuff back in my grief war days in empire. It was fun, clearly the higher in class 'normally' means your gang gets bigger.

Solo play fits me better currently due to time availble for the game.
We are talking from a solo players experience here.

If I do find wormholes and I have time I do check them out but due to time its easier to run around a few systems and hopefully catch something.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#68 - 2013-02-22 19:48:35 UTC
How about the rats warp off the moment a new threat shows up, and the PvE pilot just fights you?

A good chunk of the described PvP attacking ships here aren't better than the PvE ships for offense or defense, so this should be gud fite central.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
L0rdF1end
Tactical Grace.
Vanguard.
#69 - 2013-02-23 11:33:03 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
How about the rats warp off the moment a new threat shows up, and the PvE pilot just fights you?

A good chunk of the described PvP attacking ships here aren't better than the PvE ships for offense or defense, so this should be gud fite central.



Thats probably the easiest thing to code rather than actual AI which would involve complex coding if CCP actually wanted to achieve something they could actually call AI. At the moment there is no such thing as AI.
Rats behave based on a few shoddy rules, that isn't AI.
L0rdF1end
Tactical Grace.
Vanguard.
#70 - 2013-02-25 13:09:47 UTC
Nothing from CCP yet I see. Maybe I need to private message them :)
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#71 - 2013-02-25 14:19:01 UTC
L0rdF1end wrote:
Nothing from CCP yet I see. Maybe I need to private message them :)

Sure, give a GM a chance to laugh at your foolishness directly. You'll probably make their day :)

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Zang etsu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2013-03-06 04:01:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Zang etsu
The logic here is dreadful.
To the people arguing "agress those who agress you"
Part of the reason CCP changed it was because no matter how strong the site, you could get away with building a massively buffer tanked ishtar and just having a logi ship rep it. As long as the ishtar warped in first and the logi didn't attack anything, one could just do sites all day.
To those advocating rats warping away, for that to not backfire whenever you have people roaming belts, you'd have to code to check that they're not in the same fleet, and even then it'd make rats not a problem for the standard bear.
Consider:
Dude mining in belt, rats jump him, he warps in an unaffiliated ship with a small turret, fires one shot at his Hulk, Mackinaw, whatever, now those rats just warp off because they "see a fight"
Now the miners get to sit there no problem.
Given the fact that the big nasty t2 could turn and attack them and have them dead anyways, it's the natural approach to the issue to claim the biggest prize on the way out, which is the big nasty t2 ship (in their eyes), not the "puny" drake.
If they assist the drake, the Pilgrim dies, if they assist the pilgrim, the Drake dies. Either way they get a kill, except the pilgrim is guaranteed.
If I mine in my mackinaw, and some friend mines in a retriever, they attack me first. I'm the juicier target.
I'm sure the drake didn't like that this new and shiny, deadly ship was completely ignored before, either. That was game mechanics though. If you're going to attack someone, go in a ship that can handle it, or GET OUT. (seriously, if you saw them aggro you, you should have warped out if you can't tank them).
Zircon Dasher
#73 - 2013-03-06 05:04:21 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
How about the rats warp off the moment a new threat shows up, and the PvE pilot just fights you?

A good chunk of the described PvP attacking ships here aren't better than the PvE ships for offense or defense, so this should be gud fite central.


While it is quite unseemly to admit for a middle aged man..... this made me giggle like a school girl!

Why has this not been given its own F&I thread already?!

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#74 - 2013-03-06 09:47:15 UTC
Zen Dad wrote:

I fly the U boat of Eve the Pilgrim


No, that would be the stealth bomber. They even fire torpedos. U Boats never deployed energy warfare, nor do I have much knowledge of their deploying drones.

Zen Dad wrote:

The rats switched aggression to the 'weaker' ship attacking the mighty Drake


Once again, no, they did not switch aggression to the weaker ship. They switched to the stronger ship. With a med repper and a kinetic hardener plus a couple other mods for tank, the drake is hopeless to even hurt you. Your ship costs far more, and has far more killing capability.

But to answer your question, why did they switch? Rats have a priority system toward electronic warfare and logistics activities. Since you were likely running energy neutralization (though I wouldn't put it past you to be hitting him witha tracking computer), it makes perfect sense that all the rats would have switched to shooting you instead.

Next time, fit a better active tank. Know the rats in the area, and tank for the type of damage you expect to be taking. For example, if you are hunting gurista space, fit for kin/thermal resists. It's simple stuff.


TL:DR;
Pilgrim is not a U boat, Stealth bombers are.
Pilgrim is not weaker than a drake.
You used Ewar (Neuts). Rats hate ewar.
You had a terrible tank. Terrible tanks don't hold up well.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#75 - 2013-03-06 18:52:13 UTC
Not only is it simple stuff, but it works well for you anyway.

Many rats are weaker to the same damage they are dealing. This means that in tanking for the rats, you also tank for your PvE fighting target, if he has the choice.

But really, it's as simple as can be... If you are going to take your ship into a PvP situation, you fit for PvP. If you are going to take your ship into a PvE situation, you fit for PvE. Hunting ratters in PvE areas means you need to fit to survive the rats as well as the ratter, just as the ratter had to consider the possibility of your presence when he started ratting. It also means you need to avoid any projected effect from your ship other than pure damage, as rats hate that and will stick with you.

The way you want to play, you may as well go into visual basic and program yourself a button that puts up a big "YOU WIN!" on the screen every time you push it.
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#76 - 2013-03-07 14:30:51 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Not only is it simple stuff, but it works well for you anyway.

Many rats are weaker to the same damage they are dealing. This means that in tanking for the rats, you also tank for your PvE fighting target, if he has the choice.

But really, it's as simple as can be... If you are going to take your ship into a PvP situation, you fit for PvP. If you are going to take your ship into a PvE situation, you fit for PvE. Hunting ratters in PvE areas means you need to fit to survive the rats as well as the ratter, just as the ratter had to consider the possibility of your presence when he started ratting. It also means you need to avoid any projected effect from your ship other than pure damage, as rats hate that and will stick with you.

The way you want to play, you may as well go into visual basic and program yourself a button that puts up a big "YOU WIN!" on the screen every time you push it.


Bold for emphasis.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#77 - 2013-03-07 15:07:41 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
posting in another thread about someone unable to deal with the horrors of npc rats shooting at them instead of their soft pvp target

aw diddums

We've dealt with this for years in wormholes, and sleepers hit far far harder than any other npc

Edit: As far as the "but its dumb that rats would attack me instead! I'm helping / they should finish the other guy off first / blahblah!" arguments people have made... I think you're all just wrong. The rats are nasty little gangs with their own territory. Mr PVEr turns up and they try to kill him - he's an outsider in their territory, so they try to kill him. Then Mr PVPer turns up at the site. Does it matter what he's up to (i.e. chasing Mr PVEr)? Not really, he's still another outsider in their gangs territory. So they're going to murder him too if they can. The idea that they should think "but he's on my side!" is just stupid. You're not on their side, you're just more capsuleer scum invading their space. Maybe you have a weaker ship, so they decide to wipe you out first because it's easier. Maybe your ship is more expensive so they go for it first. Maybe they see you have more threatening modules - like ewar - and need it removed fast to help their own chances at survival. Whatever. There's plenty of reasons why they should target you too, and the only reason not to is "wah i want them to help me gank a PVEr"