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Fix Null > Nerf Hi

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Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2013-02-22 17:33:44 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
High sec is ok, buff null.

Highsec is not ok. It makes buffing null both futile and impossible.


Only if you want to try to make it have its own industrial base, instead of just using highsecs.
What are the actual gameplay advantages of having people making some/all of the stuff in null?
destiny2
Decaying Rocky Odious Non Evil Stupid Inane Nobody
Rogue Drone Recovery Syndicate
#62 - 2013-02-22 17:34:52 UTC
they should just make highsec into nullsec so these gankers, cant hide all the time from people ie.

remove stations make players build their own stations like we do in null set up posses for safe spots etc, but have a certain area for only new players to enter and be safe from all the blah blah so they dont get run out of the game in the first week.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2013-02-22 17:36:21 UTC
destiny2 wrote:
they should just make highsec into nullsec so these gankers, cant hide all the time from people ie.

remove stations make players build their own stations like we do in null set up posses for safe spots etc, but have a certain area for only new players to enter and be safe from all the blah blah so they dont get run out of the game in the first week.


I also think that getting rid of the most popular zone in the game is a good idea.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#64 - 2013-02-22 17:37:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Tippia wrote:
Onomerous wrote:
Why are so many people advocates of crapping in everyone else's sandbox because their sandbox is full of crap?
…which is why people get so confused when I make those suggestions, rather than the nullseccers Twisted


No, they don't get confused, you are obvioulsy just a goon/test/some other boogeyman alt and thus easily dismissed without going through the pain of actually using words and logic.

Quote:
Quote:
I'm for an Eve where all 4 types of space can play and have fun without advocating killing Eve for others... sheesh you peeps are butt hurt.
But then again, the only ones really advocating killing EVE for others are the bears…


There is that imaginary bubble that you (tippia) talked about. It's one of the basic differences between high sec players and everyone else and a cause of much of the forum conflict.

"Everyone else" sees EVE as an interconnected whole, where everything affects everything. The high sec crowd sees things as "sections", as if they are independent of each other.

That's why I never use the terms "nullseccers", "lowsecers" or "wormholers" (the last of which sound erotic and nasty at the same time). To me there are High Sec only (or EVE-lite) players and "full" EVE players who play everywhere including high sec.

I have no problem with the EVE-lite players so long as they understand they are choosing to play a pvp based game.

And i posted this while in a High Sec Vanguard fleet ...
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#65 - 2013-02-22 17:38:39 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Takseen wrote:
Only if you want to try to make it have its own industrial base, instead of just using highsecs.
What are the actual gameplay advantages of having people making some/all of the stuff in null?


Targets.

The ability to disrupt the industrial base of your enemies.

People making their bread where they live.

etc.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2013-02-22 17:43:44 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Takseen wrote:
Only if you want to try to make it have its own industrial base, instead of just using highsecs.
What are the actual gameplay advantages of having people making some/all of the stuff in null?


Targets.

The ability to disrupt the industrial base of your enemies.
People making their bread where they live.
etc.


So people will start shipping their stuff around null in industrials instead of the jump freighters they presumably use now to bring stuff from Jita?
I mean it'd be cool if nullsec wasn't so barren looking in kills per system like it is now, but would it really kick off a decent war?
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#67 - 2013-02-22 17:45:10 UTC
Someitmes I wish I lived in my own little fantasy world as well.

Care to direct us to all these threads that get made every day about nerfing high sec?
Shouldn't I see several of them on the first page?

Isn't this the exact same bullshit you guys keep posting? Yes, yes it is.

You're behaiving like a paranoid child that's worried they're about to have their toys taken away, so you start blaming the other kid in an effort to divert attention from yourself.


Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2013-02-22 17:47:43 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
To me there are High Sec only (or EVE-lite) players and "full" EVE players who play everywhere including high sec.

I have no problem with the EVE-lite players so long as they understand they are choosing to play a pvp based game.


EVE-lite is a fairly spot on description of highsec. Its what I engage in when in a more relaxed mood, preferring to listen to tunes and tab browse a bit while playing, instead of listening to fleet comms, clicking dscan, checking local, etc.
Like a quiet night down the pub sipping a pint or two, instead of doing 5 shots then hitting the dance floor.

You can close all the pubs in town, but you won't get too many old fogies to hit the nightclub instead.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#69 - 2013-02-22 17:51:36 UTC
Takseen wrote:
Only if you want to try to make it have its own industrial base, instead of just using highsecs.
…which you do, since it means that there's more to fight over and more people to fight against. It means there's a reason to actually go there that doesn't involve just shooting red crosses and boxes. It means that the money-making opportunities are higher and that the whole idea of trying to withhold certain resources from everyone else suddenly becomes both possible and kind-of-sensible. It means that you can actually build your own space empire.

Above all, it would mean that the player-controlled areas would offer more freedom and control to the players than the NPC-controlled ones do.

That last part really highlights the fundamental issue with the current implementation — it makes absolutely no sense and rather goes counter to what one might presume is the intended design…
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#70 - 2013-02-22 17:53:30 UTC
Takseen wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Takseen wrote:
Only if you want to try to make it have its own industrial base, instead of just using highsecs.
What are the actual gameplay advantages of having people making some/all of the stuff in null?


Targets.

The ability to disrupt the industrial base of your enemies.
People making their bread where they live.
etc.


So people will start shipping their stuff around null in industrials instead of the jump freighters they presumably use now to bring stuff from Jita?
I mean it'd be cool if nullsec wasn't so barren looking in kills per system like it is now, but would it really kick off a decent war?

Where do you play, because where I play is null and I see frieghters flying around all the time.

In fact, I fly a charon around to get goods from one station to another in order to sell.

A good number of you need to shut up, to be quite frank. You have no idea what you're talking about, because you've never ******* experienced it.

I have a SINGLE STATION that is viable to build out of. One station per system, not two, not three, ONE. In order to stock other systems, becuase people actually do things in other sytems then just one, you need to move **** to those systems because you can't build there.

Where is this non-capital hualter that lets me move over 100k M^3 worth of goods around? Do you spend 3 days moving a bunch of ships from one system to another to sell becuase you can fit one or two in your ****** little hauler? No, you fly the ship needed for the job.

I don't care where you ******* play, if you get blown up in a frieghter it's your own damned fault.

And if you're a serious industrialist, regardless of where you play, you own and fly a frieghter to move your ****, or you're a tool who's to scared to take a loss and pay someone else to do it for you.

Yes, we move **** around already in freighters.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2013-02-22 17:58:12 UTC
@Tippia

Here's what I'm wondering about.
If nullsec industry is buffed to the point where its moderately more profitable than highsec industry, then it'll attract more industry people. Who may then attract targets, which will likely drive down profitability to the point they're better off going back to null.

Or they just add another moneymaking feature to null to go with the moons, plexes, sanctums etc, which are already not generating that many fights.

The only time CCP succeeded in bribing people to fight each other was Faction Warfare, and that didn't require nerfing highsec one bit.

Now if there's actual industrialists who are in favour of nerfing highsec instead of people looking for targets, then I'd be more interested in what they ahd to say.
(apologies if you are actually an industrialist, perhaps that is how you acquire your lollipops)
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2013-02-22 18:01:44 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

I don't care where you ******* play, if you get blown up in a frieghter it's your own damned fault.

And if you're a serious industrialist, regardless of where you play, you own and fly a frieghter to move your ****, or you're a tool who's to scared to take a loss and pay someone else to do it for you.

Yes, we move **** around already in freighters.


That's more like what I wanted to hear, interesting.

Seems like it could be worth a go to try increasing nullsec commerce.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#73 - 2013-02-22 18:01:47 UTC
Takseen wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
To me there are High Sec only (or EVE-lite) players and "full" EVE players who play everywhere including high sec.

I have no problem with the EVE-lite players so long as they understand they are choosing to play a pvp based game.


EVE-lite is a fairly spot on description of highsec. Its what I engage in when in a more relaxed mood, preferring to listen to tunes and tab browse a bit while playing, instead of listening to fleet comms, clicking dscan, checking local, etc.
Like a quiet night down the pub sipping a pint or two, instead of doing 5 shots then hitting the dance floor.

You can close all the pubs in town, but you won't get too many old fogies to hit the nightclub instead.


No one's trying to close the pubs (ie force anyone do do anything), we're saying that all the pubs are giving out free drinks, the night clubs aren't the problem.....
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#74 - 2013-02-22 18:01:53 UTC
Takseen wrote:
Now if there's actual industrialists who are in favour of nerfing highsec instead of people looking for targets, then I'd be more interested in what they ahd to say.
(apologies if you are actually an industrialist, perhaps that is how you acquire your lollipops)

There are some in this thread, you've simply ignored them because ~Goon~.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#75 - 2013-02-22 18:04:32 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Takseen wrote:
Here's what I'm wondering about.
If nullsec industry is buffed to the point where its moderately more profitable than highsec industry, then it'll attract more industry people. Who are the new targets
FYP.


You should be able to achieve higher marginal revenue in Nullsec because your costs are much, much higher than in HS.




By the way.
Quote:
Now if there's actual industrialists who are in favour of nerfing highsec instead of people looking for targets, then I'd be more interested in what they ahd to say.

You're talking to a number of them.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#76 - 2013-02-22 18:09:06 UTC
You can't "buff" null sec industry to be "more profitable", unless they simply removed industry from high sec or made drastic changes to how much it cost to build in high.

You can't just undock and start mining in null. I can with my alt, which is why I build a crapload of ammo in high sec instead of null. Why waste ISK on the minerals in null when I can mine them myself with next to no effort in high sec, and just ship the ammo. When all is said and done, I make MORE building the ammo in high sec then I did in null, because I cut the mineral cost out.

The COST to build isn't very relevant in null, it's as cheap or cheaper if you have a 0/0 line to use. When I don't have a 0/0 line I have a 1000/500 lines that are to damn close to the 1000/333 lines in high sec to be that big a difference maker.


It's not about making it MORE PROFITABLE, it's about making it VIABLE.
There's a world of difference there. Most of the T2 goods I bulid I can just buy in high sec at production cost, or just above, ship to null, and still make as much profit as I would had I built it myself.

Why bother upgrading multiple systems to support industry in null, when it's easy, faster, and just as affordable to import everything you need from high sec? This is why many null corps don't even bother upgrading a system for industry, what's the ******* point?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#77 - 2013-02-22 18:09:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Takseen wrote:
Here's what I'm wondering about.
If nullsec industry is buffed to the point where its moderately more profitable than highsec industry, then it'll attract more industry people. Who may then attract targets, which will likely drive down profitability to the point they're better off going back to null.
I assume you meant “back to high”…

Anyway, no. Because if you do it right, moving back to high doesn't offer any advantages. Yes, you'll be safer when you few without escorts or intel, but the price and inconvenience of that security (and lack of production capability — read: lower throughput and thus lower profits) would not be worth it. Also, as Natsett points out, pure profits is just half of the picture and it leads the thought to just thinking about ISK… while ISK is an issue, it's the workload that really makes null industry far too costly at the moment.

If you attract targets when the industrials move out, then great! It means the combat pilots will have fun things to do. It means that roaming around in your own space would yield viable and valuable targets to attack. You have a border to protect. It means the fights come to you, at home, where it's nice and close and comfy, rather than having to hunt for them aaaall the way over there.

Quote:
Now if there's actual industrialists who are in favour of nerfing highsec instead of people looking for targets, then I'd be more interested in what they ahd to say.
(apologies if you are actually an industrialist, perhaps that is how you acquire your lollipops)
Pretty much all of us are. It's just the bears that have something against it, since they have problems seeing outside their bubble and imagine all the good it would do.

If nothing else, there's the simple fact that the current implementation has rendered large portions of game content utterly irrelevant, and that alone means that something is wrong.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2013-02-22 18:09:59 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Takseen wrote:
Here's what I'm wondering about.
If nullsec industry is buffed to the point where its moderately more profitable than highsec industry, then it'll attract more industry people. Who are the new targets
FYP.

You should be able to achieve higher marginal revenue in Nullsec because your costs are much, much higher than in HS.

By the way.
Quote:
Now if there's actual industrialists who are in favour of nerfing highsec instead of people looking for targets, then I'd be more interested in what they ahd to say.

You're talking to a number of them.


Ty for the correction.
Yes I say Natsett's post just after I made that one. I can see where he's coming from. He wants to combine the dangers of nullsec with the fun of building an industrial empire, and can't really do that at the moment, it seems.
I understand that more than "man, I wish we had more people to shoot at". Because there's other probably better ways to do that.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#79 - 2013-02-22 18:11:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Takseen wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
High sec is ok, buff null.

Highsec is not ok. It makes buffing null both futile and impossible.


Only if you want to try to make it have its own industrial base, instead of just using highsecs.
What are the actual gameplay advantages of having people making some/all of the stuff in null?

- properly gradiates levels of risk and reward for industrial activity along the lines of resource extraction-activities
- enforces the idea that nullsec alliance actively patrol, utilize and occupy their space
- opens nullsec to manufacturers and builders due to necessity on the part of the nullsec alliances
- allieviates direct competition between newbie industrialists and industrialists with enormous levels of experience and cumulative resources.

I've never said nullsec should have 'all' industrial activity, just the amount needed to sustain its own wars and conflicts while having enough of an efficiency/capacity advantage over highsec to make it worth doing for the small-scale industrialists
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#80 - 2013-02-22 18:17:04 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Takseen wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
High sec is ok, buff null.

Highsec is not ok. It makes buffing null both futile and impossible.


Only if you want to try to make it have its own industrial base, instead of just using highsecs.
What are the actual gameplay advantages of having people making some/all of the stuff in null?

- properly gradiates levels of risk and reward for industrial activity along the lines of resource extraction-activities
- enforces the idea that nullsec alliance actively patrol, utilize and occupy their space
- opens nullsec to manufacturers and builders due to necessity on the part of the nullsec alliances
- allieviates direct competition between newbie industrialists and industrialists with enormous levels of experience and cumulative resources.

I've never said nullsec should have 'all' industrial activity, just the amount needed to sustain its own wars and conflicts while having enough of an efficiency/capacity advantage over highsec to make it worth doing for the small-scale industrialists


But but, if you do that , it will hurt my business making money in the safety of high sec, and since I'm the only person that exists, hurting me would be bad.

Oh wait, sry, thought I was a high sec poster for a second, carry on.