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Drake wtf?
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#41 - 2013-02-22 06:54:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Herr Wilkus wrote:

Prove me wrong, show me a Tier 1/2 BC fit that kills an HAM Drake 1 vs 1. (and I mean KILL, not 'drive off'.)
And don't waste my time meta-tanking like a ****** - stacking up a 95% vs Kinetic is simply unrealistic because you don't always fight Drakes. Stay honest, stick to plugging holes and EANM/Invulns.


[Ferox, Neutron Ferox]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Scrambler II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Small Nosferatu II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Warrior II x5

[Ferox, Blaster Ferox]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Warp Scrambler II

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
[empty high slot]

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


Hobgoblin II x5

[Brutix, Dual Rep]
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Nanobot Accelerator I


Hammerhead II x5

[Cyclone, HAM XL ASB]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II
Co-Processor II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Warp Disruptor II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


Hammerhead II x5

Shall I go on?

-Liang

Ed: Math for these fits starts here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2652429#post2652429

The Drake is very strong still, but it's not the bastion of solo brawling invincibility as is presented here.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#42 - 2013-02-22 07:26:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
^I'll vouch for the first Ferox and the Cyclone :)

The changes in this last round of balancing were awesome, there's loads of really cool ship options now :)
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#43 - 2013-02-22 08:43:28 UTC
You sure about that buffer Ferox Liang? Without a web the Drake should be able to drift out of Void optimal. I haven't run the numbers though.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-02-22 09:06:25 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
You sure about that buffer Ferox Liang? Without a web the Drake should be able to drift out of Void optimal. I haven't run the numbers though.


All the drake has to do is push "keep at distance 8 to 9km" and ferox dies.
Switching to null won't help.
Dropping tank for a web doesn't help either.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#45 - 2013-02-22 09:21:15 UTC  |  Edited by: To mare
when the solution for the "BC FIX" is "fit a Kin hardener and the drake is fine" you know something went wrong Roll

edit: why the ferox wich is supposed to passive tank can active tank using a better fit than the cyclone because of the terrible cpu of the last one
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#46 - 2013-02-22 09:30:22 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
My rock is better than your scissors!!! pay no attention to that paper...

Pretty much. Drake will hard counter, say, an armour Brutix, which it outdamages at 10+km where it'll be kiting it at flinging HAMs while not getting close enough to be threatened. The Drake is countered by the Deimos. Of course there are more on both sides than just that, but regardless, it has both upsides and downsides. It will beat some but be beaten by others.


You will notice that even 1600mm Brutix is faster than Drake, and in active fit Brutix is now significantly faster than Drake.

[Brutix, MAARMAR]
NEW Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Reactive Armor Hardener

10MN Microwarpdrive II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Small Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Nanobot Accelerator I


Hammerhead II x5

1751 m/s when you step on it
686 hp/s omnitank
501 dps with Null and Hammers, 710 max dps

This fit quite happily tanks the Drake without even resorting to overheating (80,056% kin resist) and is faster than dual nano Drake. I'd be fairly confident flying this Brutix against a Drake tbh.


.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#47 - 2013-02-22 09:37:24 UTC
Roime wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
My rock is better than your scissors!!! pay no attention to that paper...

Pretty much. Drake will hard counter, say, an armour Brutix, which it outdamages at 10+km where it'll be kiting it at flinging HAMs while not getting close enough to be threatened. The Drake is countered by the Deimos. Of course there are more on both sides than just that, but regardless, it has both upsides and downsides. It will beat some but be beaten by others.


You will notice that even 1600mm Brutix is faster than Drake, and in active fit Brutix is now significantly faster than Drake.

[Brutix, MAARMAR]
NEW Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Reactive Armor Hardener

10MN Microwarpdrive II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Small Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Nanobot Accelerator I


Hammerhead II x5

1751 m/s when you step on it
686 hp/s omnitank
501 dps with Null and Hammers, 710 max dps

This fit quite happily tanks the Drake without even resorting to overheating (80,056% kin resist) and is faster than dual nano Drake. I'd be fairly confident flying this Brutix against a Drake tbh.



and how long will the nanite paste last in you rep before you are either forced to reload or keep goin with bad reps

also thats assuming a 1v1 which is the only scenario where a active tanking can come on top, and in that case everyone seems to forget that the drake can active tank much better than the cyclone
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-02-22 09:39:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
To mare wrote:



and how long will the nanite paste last in you rep before you are either forced to reload or keep goin with bad reps

also thats assuming a 1v1 which is the only scenario where a active tanking can come on top, and in that case everyone seems to forget that the drake can active tank much better than the cyclone


Yeah, I don't know why people are saying an active tanked ship can take a buffer fit in a 1v1 so everything is k. Lol

The 25% resist bonus is such a better bonus to have than the shield boost bonus since it gives you the best of both worlds. You can buffer and active while performing wonderful at both.

Roime wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
My rock is better than your scissors!!! pay no attention to that paper...

Pretty much. Drake will hard counter, say, an armour Brutix, which it outdamages at 10+km where it'll be kiting it at flinging HAMs while not getting close enough to be threatened. The Drake is countered by the Deimos. Of course there are more on both sides than just that, but regardless, it has both upsides and downsides. It will beat some but be beaten by others.


You will notice that even 1600mm Brutix is faster than Drake, and in active fit Brutix is now significantly faster than Drake.



Not if you fit any armor rigs...
To mare
Advanced Technology
#49 - 2013-02-22 09:41:57 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Roime wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
My rock is better than your scissors!!! pay no attention to that paper...

Pretty much. Drake will hard counter, say, an armour Brutix, which it outdamages at 10+km where it'll be kiting it at flinging HAMs while not getting close enough to be threatened. The Drake is countered by the Deimos. Of course there are more on both sides than just that, but regardless, it has both upsides and downsides. It will beat some but be beaten by others.


You will notice that even 1600mm Brutix is faster than Drake, and in active fit Brutix is now significantly faster than Drake.



Not if you fit any armor rigs...

active tanking armor rigs dont give speed penalty anymore
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#50 - 2013-02-22 09:44:08 UTC
To mare wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Roime wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
My rock is better than your scissors!!! pay no attention to that paper...

Pretty much. Drake will hard counter, say, an armour Brutix, which it outdamages at 10+km where it'll be kiting it at flinging HAMs while not getting close enough to be threatened. The Drake is countered by the Deimos. Of course there are more on both sides than just that, but regardless, it has both upsides and downsides. It will beat some but be beaten by others.


You will notice that even 1600mm Brutix is faster than Drake, and in active fit Brutix is now significantly faster than Drake.



Not if you fit any armor rigs...

active tanking armor rigs dont give speed penalty anymore


Yes of course, but you wouldn't put those on a 1600mm plate brutix. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#51 - 2013-02-22 09:47:33 UTC
To mare wrote:

and how long will the nanite paste last in you rep before you are either forced to reload or keep goin with bad reps

also thats assuming a 1v1 which is the only scenario where a active tanking can come on top, and in that case everyone seems to forget that the drake can active tank much better than the cyclone


61.5 seconds if you don't heat, after that you have 399 omni tank which is also well enough to tank a single Drake due to the RAH cutting a Drake's dps by 80%.

And yes, this is assuming 1vs1 as per OP's request:

Quote:
Prove me wrong, show me a Tier 1/2 BC fit that kills an HAM Drake 1 vs 1. (and I mean KILL, not 'drive off'.)
And don't waste my time meta-tanking like a ****** - stacking up a 95% vs Kinetic is simply unrealistic because you don't always fight Drakes. Stay honest, stick to plugging holes and EANM/Invulns.


I'm well aware of the terrible scaling of active armor tanking.

.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#52 - 2013-02-22 09:52:05 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:

Yes of course, but you wouldn't put those on a 1600mm plate brutix. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.


You need to put 3 trimarks to make the 1600 RRT Brutix slower than Drake, not counting speed mods (I think the Drake now really needs all the BCUs it can fit). With 3 trimarks the Drake is also only 16 m/s faster which imo might not help too much, especially if the Brutix has scram and Drake long point ;-)




.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-02-22 09:54:38 UTC
Roime wrote:
To mare wrote:

and how long will the nanite paste last in you rep before you are either forced to reload or keep goin with bad reps

also thats assuming a 1v1 which is the only scenario where a active tanking can come on top, and in that case everyone seems to forget that the drake can active tank much better than the cyclone


61.5 seconds if you don't heat, after that you have 399 omni tank which is also well enough to tank a single Drake due to the RAH cutting a Drake's dps by 80%.

And yes, this is assuming 1vs1 as per OP's request:

Quote:
Prove me wrong, show me a Tier 1/2 BC fit that kills an HAM Drake 1 vs 1. (and I mean KILL, not 'drive off'.)
And don't waste my time meta-tanking like a ****** - stacking up a 95% vs Kinetic is simply unrealistic because you don't always fight Drakes. Stay honest, stick to plugging holes and EANM/Invulns.


I'm well aware of the terrible scaling of active armor tanking.



Just for record I never requested, stated, or assumed that my drake fit was for 1v1.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#54 - 2013-02-22 09:55:59 UTC
Ah sorry, it was Herr Wilkus. My bad.

.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-02-22 09:56:52 UTC
Roime wrote:
Ah sorry, it was Herr Wilkus. My bad.



It is okay. Smile
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#56 - 2013-02-22 10:38:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Looks like I finally got a reasonable response, which is appreciated. And for the record, I didn't say the Drake was 'Invincible' 1 vs 1. I readily admitted that I hadn't had time to EFT all 8 BC's yet.

I was challenging people to show me a 'reasonable' fit that can overcome a Drake 1-vs-1. Meaning 'normal fits' that someone would fly against other types of ships.

I just wanted to be shown otherwise - because EFTing and estimating combat situations between every single variation is time consuming.

Started by estimating combat between the Drake, Brutix, Harb, and Hurricane, (the old, non-drone main-line BCs) and just wasn't seeing it.

At first, just 'assumed' the Brutix could do it, its the best brawler right? But then found it fell short in both a buffer and dual Rep configuration. Had not tried the new Paste-repper, however. Brutix is faster and dictates range, but either way, its a very near run. But at least it makes it competitive....in the Brutix' 'ideal' engagement.

Left the 'sucky' Cyclone and Ferox and drone based Myrm for last.
Finally went to bed at 3AM while playing around with the Cyclone, and hadn't gotten to the new Ferox yet - but taking a look at them now.

If it seems Cyclone can dictate range and brawl down a Drake 1 v 1 in tackle range, even if it relies heavily on Cap Boosters -
I will concede, "Myth: Busted!"

And it would be a good thing, doesn't mean the Cyclone is OP, as Active Boosting like that clearly has logistical disadvantages of its own.

Though it does beg the question - cram an ASB on the Drake, stuff its cargo with Boosters and what happens?
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#57 - 2013-02-22 10:42:03 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Looks like I finally got a reasonable response, which is appreciated. And for the record, I didn't say the Drake was 'Invincible' 1 vs 1. I readily admitted that I hadn't had time to EFT all 8 BC's yet.

I was challenging people to show me a 'reasonable' fit that can overcome a Drake 1-vs-1. Meaning 'normal fits' that someone would fly against other types of ships.

I just wanted to be shown otherwise - because EFTing and estimating combat situations between every single variation is time consuming.

Started by estimating combat between the Drake, Brutix, Harb, and Hurricane, (the old, non-drone main-line BCs) and just wasn't seeing it.

At first, just 'assumed' the Brutix could do it, its the best brawler right? But then found it fell short in both a buffer and dual Rep configuration. Had not tried the new Paste-repper, however. Brutix is faster and dictates range, but either way, its a very near run. But at least it makes it competitive....in the Brutix' 'ideal' engagement.

Left the 'sucky' Cyclone and Ferox and drone based Myrm for last.
Finally went to bed at 3AM while playing around with the Cyclone, and hadn't gotten to the new Ferox yet - but taking a look at them now.

If it seems Cyclone can dictate range and brawl down a Drake 1 v 1 in tackle range, even if it relies heavily on Cap Boosters -
I will concede, "Myth: Busted!"

And it would be a good thing, doesn't mean the Cyclone is OP, as Active Boosting like that clearly has logistical disadvantages of its own.


Obviously a buffer tank won't be as effective as active in a 1v1.

Try some active tank drake fits.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#58 - 2013-02-22 10:51:06 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Looks like I finally got a reasonable response, which is appreciated. And for the record, I didn't say the Drake was 'Invincible' 1 vs 1. I readily admitted that I hadn't had time to EFT all 8 BC's yet.

I was challenging people to show me a 'reasonable' fit that can overcome a Drake 1-vs-1. Meaning 'normal fits' that someone would fly against other types of ships.

I just wanted to be shown otherwise - because EFTing and estimating combat situations between every single variation is time consuming.

Started by estimating combat between the Drake, Brutix, Harb, and Hurricane, (the old, non-drone main-line BCs) and just wasn't seeing it.

At first, just 'assumed' the Brutix could do it, its the best brawler right? But then found it fell short in both a buffer and dual Rep configuration. Had not tried the new Paste-repper, however. Brutix is faster and dictates range, but either way, its a very near run. But at least it makes it competitive....in the Brutix' 'ideal' engagement.

Left the 'sucky' Cyclone and Ferox and drone based Myrm for last.
Finally went to bed at 3AM while playing around with the Cyclone, and hadn't gotten to the new Ferox yet - but taking a look at them now.

If it seems Cyclone can dictate range and brawl down a Drake 1 v 1 in tackle range, even if it relies heavily on Cap Boosters -
I will concede, "Myth: Busted!"

And it would be a good thing, doesn't mean the Cyclone is OP, as Active Boosting like that clearly has logistical disadvantages of its own.


Obviously a buffer tank won't be as effective as active in a 1v1.

Try some active tank drake fits.


Already noted - seems quite possible to cram an L-ASB on there, and make your cargo-bay work for you without making too many sacrifices.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#59 - 2013-02-22 12:16:13 UTC
I think any RAH armor ship will kill a Drake. RAH >> Drake.
Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
Transgress
#60 - 2013-02-22 13:01:20 UTC
Since armor explosive hardener no longer have passive resist bonus (ie, does nothing when neuted out) RAH is much better option for active armor tanking ship. Ie active myrmidon and brutix will probably have one. Hence they will be able to kill drake 1v1 with ease.

Of course they are highly neut vulnerable and scales badly with numbers, but that is different story.