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Drake wtf?
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Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#21 - 2013-02-21 12:01:09 UTC
Vizvig wrote:
Replace HAML to HML, put RF disruptor, and place offgrid loki to spot = omnipwn drake!


Nice sarcasm!
I'd suggest just replacing the Loki with another Hurricane.

2x Hurricanes CAN kill one Drake. See, its balanced! Lol
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#22 - 2013-02-21 12:12:13 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
My rock is better than your scissors!!! pay no attention to that paper...

Pretty much. Drake will hard counter, say, an armour Brutix, which it outdamages at 10+km where it'll be kiting it at flinging HAMs while not getting close enough to be threatened. The Drake is countered by the Deimos. Of course there are more on both sides than just that, but regardless, it has both upsides and downsides. It will beat some but be beaten by others.


Saying a Drake is 'countered' by a Deimos is pointless. Different class of ship entirely with a much higher pricetag.

Drake can kite an Armor Brutix, and a point blank the Brutix can overpower the Drake. Sounds fair.

At least there is a range 'envelope' that the Brutix has a chance.....

Hurricane? It just doesn't matter. Kite, brawl point blank, neut, switch damage types? Doesn't matter, the numbers simply don't add up.

Unless you get the HML vs A/C long-range vs shortrange mismatch, or have metagamed your fit specifically - you simply have no credible path to victory in most scenarios.

The Drake needed its tank reduced somewhat to bring it in line with the rest of the BC peons. It didn't happen, and will continue to dominate.
Liam Inkuras
Furnace
#23 - 2013-02-21 12:45:05 UTC
Actually, now that active armour rigs do not affect speed, I believe that the armour Brutix (if it has a web) will be able to hope right up on that Drake.

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#24 - 2013-02-21 13:03:39 UTC
So what Herr Wilkus is saying is that he wants the Hurricane to be not only faster, more agile and have greater flexibility of damage type, but also to beat a Drake in a straight-up tackle-range fight too?
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-02-21 13:07:15 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
The Cane vs Drake matchup is pretty brutal.

For people who scream, "Oh, just tank Kinetic"--- thats simply metagaming your fit.
Congrats, you are now gimped against all other ships. Also, Drakes can easily swap damage types the minute they run into a lol-90% Kin-resisted metagamer.




Did you actualy see the DPS on a Non Kinetic Drake, it 2/3 of it's kinetic at lvl 5, that less than a Caracal or Cyclone to compare it with other missile ships.

Secondly Kinetic damage is about the easiest damage to counter in the game, it's the second thoughest base shield resistance, and Gallente have a resistance against it.

I wouldn't know what it would do against the new Cane but I'm quite sure it won't dominate overall.

Stepping over to HM will make it PvP wise very vunrable against everything that is smaller than a BC.

It's not completly rubbish but you don't have to fear it, It will however still be usefull in blobs, but the Polda Drake will be replaced by the HAMClone, and the PvE Drake lost quite some usefullness with EM rats.

Strangly it mostly people that didn't fly a Drake that think it awesome now. because it does 2,9% extra Kinnetic damage on EFT.

Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#26 - 2013-02-21 15:15:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Gypsio III wrote:
So what Herr Wilkus is saying is that he wants the Hurricane to be not only faster, more agile and have greater flexibility of damage type, but also to beat a Drake in a straight-up tackle-range fight too?


No, just some scenarios where it is at least capable of killing or driving off a Drake if flown with some kind of intelligence.

Here's the general situation:
8 scenarios divided by range of engagement and weapon class.
All scenarios use Level V skills and general-use fits.

1&2. Short-Range Drake destroys Short-Range Cane at ALL ranges, and kills at scram range in about 70 seconds.
3&4. Long-Range Drake destroys Long-Range Cane at ALL ranges, and kills at scram range in about 2 minutes.
5&6. Short Range Drake absolutely destroys a Long Range Cane at zero. At a distance - Drake retreats.
7&8. Short Range Cane 'can kill' a Long Range Drake at zero km, but its 50/50. It takes each ship approximately 135 seconds to kill the other. At range - Hurricane retreats.

Out of eight plausible situations:
Drake easily kills in 3 scenarios and quickly drives the Hurricane off in another 3.
Drake is driven off the field in one.
And the Drake, maybe - MAYBE loses in one scenario vs the Cane - I'd give it a 50/50 chance.

I'd suggest giving the Hurricane a bit more 'brute force close range firepower with a nudge to its 5% ROF/Damage bonuses, but that might crowd the Brutix. Better solution was built around its unique 'extra' utility high.

Its 'ace in the hole' vs the Drake's vastly superior numbers was always the 2x Neuts, and losing that made the situation simply hopeless. And those neuts didn't even guarantee you a win - they just made it close. Usually one ship or the other was going to win in structure.

If giving the Hurricane back its 'extra utility high' gives too much heartburn due to 17 slot standard), there is a simple revision.
Just give -1 Turret, increase the damage bonuses to 7.5% to compensate - bam - problem solved, 2 utility slots once again available)

Say what you like about the Brutix - it KILLS when it is 'at zero', regardless of opponent - Except for HAM Drake. It loses in kiting situations - but also has the speed to run away and warp out in most losing/kiting situations.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-02-21 15:27:30 UTC
why does the Drake retreat 5&6 and the Cane not 3&4, in other words why do you have senario 3&4 a battle in Scram Range and in 5&6 not.


Also Do al your senario's have the same resists and weapons?
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#28 - 2013-02-21 15:45:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Mike Whiite wrote:
why does the Drake retreat 5&6 and the Cane not 3&4, in other words why do you have senario 3&4 a battle in Scram Range and in 5&6 not.


Also Do al your senario's have the same resists and weapons?


Scenario 5: Arty Cane vs HAM Drake. At short range, Drake absolutely shreds the Cane in about a minute.

Scenario 6, same ships, long range: HAM Drake can't hit Arty Cane - or close with it, so must retreat. Cane cannot close to tackle range without getting killed, so must let Drake go.

Scenario 3: HML Drake kills Arty Cane at short range (scramming).
Scenario 4: HML Drake drives off Hurricane with superior damage and tank at range out to 63km.

I suppose there is one caveat in #4, however. Outside of HML range, 62km+ with 720MM Tremor the Cane can very slowly whittle down a Drake. But it will take a VERY long time - approximately 14 minutes without overheating the Drakes invulns. If the Drake can't close or reduce the incoming damage, it retreats.
Tsai Ashitaka
Caidin Global Academy
#29 - 2013-02-21 19:01:34 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
The Cane vs Drake matchup is pretty brutal.

Previously, it was tough, but the Cane HAD a chance - with dual neuts shutting down Drakes hardeners and punching through right before its own, weaker buffer gave out.


Canes were never balanced around 2 neuts. Its ability to do so while fielding guns and a tank without fitting mods was drastically overpowered.

Herr Wilkus wrote:

Also, Drakes can easily swap damage types the minute they run into a lol-90% Kin-resisted metagamer.


At a 2/3 damage penalty. The hurricane can do the same thing with zero penalty (unless you're actually trying to fight with Hail, which doesn't make sense since EXP is the drake's highest resist. EMP/PP is your friend).

Herr Wilkus wrote:

General fit ACs vs HAMs?

-Short Range, Max Damage? <5Km Hurricane dies.
Cane has a slight damage advantage - but not by nearly enough to compensate for the Drake's huge passive tank. And at short range you are simply scrammed, webbed and killed.


The drake lost almost 1000 raw hit points from the patch, over 200 of which came from shields.

Yes, the hurricane still has less shields, but it's versatile enough to be armor or shield tanked. The drake is a one-trick shield-tanked pony.

If you're crying for your minmatar "versatility", then you have to accept being a jack of all trades, master of none.
Solomar Espersei
Quality Assurance
#30 - 2013-02-21 19:27:08 UTC
While we're talking Drake Trains, has anyone else tried to fit a New Model PODLA Drake? It takes pretty solid skills to fit it and range is limited to 63k with only so-so DPS (the original wasn't spectacular at DPS either though). It can now fit a medium neut to go with its dual webs so closing with it will be a PitA. I'm not saying it's a winner, but for the cost and if you like that kiting play style it will contend with the Cyclone which can be fit similarly, trading the Drake's still impressive tank (right at 60k for the new PODLA version) for select-able damage, outstanding speed, better drone bay and an extra medium neut.

OTOH, Talos. But I guess, not everyone has Large Blasters spec'd up and dig missiles. ;)

Quality Assurance Recruiting intrepid explorers and BlOps/Cov Ops combat enthusiasts
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-02-21 19:51:49 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
The drake announces his second (third?) term as Master of all BC near and far.

[Drake, New Setup 1]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Warp Disruptor II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
[empty high slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Hobgoblin II x5

-79k EHP, 90k Overloaded.
-Web, point, microwarp.
-726 DPS, 836 Overloaded. Shocked
-1003 m/s, 1417 Overloaded.


Enjoy another year of Drakes Online™.

^.^



Pffff, why are you telling this on forums??

Let all those crying noobs open new threads how bad and nerf the Drake is with these changes...you meanie! Lol

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
hellcane
Never Back Down
#32 - 2013-02-21 20:10:09 UTC
#1 help chat comment:

F* CCP, drake was nerfed bad, it lost a high slot!1!!one!
Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts
#33 - 2013-02-21 20:44:04 UTC
Obviously we are talking about a fixed module drake pilot versus an opponent who reships and re modules while having the drake pointed and webbed, damn the distances or time!

Sarcasm aside, The drake is now in line with other BC, the problem is is that the people of S&M are used to it being good against everything and typically never have never thought about picking fights or disengaging from what they can't handle. The drake is now pretty good rather than par excellence.
Mister Tuggles
Dickhead Corner
Amarr Shithole
#34 - 2013-02-21 22:31:12 UTC
Drake will continue to be one of the top BC's until missiles start being affected by TD's. If they already made missiles get hit by TD's then regard me as a r3tard, and move along.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#35 - 2013-02-22 00:12:16 UTC
Tsai Ashitaka wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:
The Cane vs Drake matchup is pretty brutal.

Previously, it was tough, but the Cane HAD a chance - with dual neuts shutting down Drakes hardeners and punching through right before its own, weaker buffer gave out.


Canes were never balanced around 2 neuts. Its ability to do so while fielding guns and a tank without fitting mods was drastically overpowered.

Herr Wilkus wrote:

Also, Drakes can easily swap damage types the minute they run into a lol-90% Kin-resisted metagamer.


At a 2/3 damage penalty. The hurricane can do the same thing with zero penalty (unless you're actually trying to fight with Hail, which doesn't make sense since EXP is the drake's highest resist. EMP/PP is your friend).

The drake lost almost 1000 raw hit points from the patch, over 200 of which came from shields.

Yes, the hurricane still has less shields, but it's versatile enough to be armor or shield tanked. The drake is a one-trick shield-tanked pony.

If you're crying for your minmatar "versatility", then you have to accept being a jack of all trades, master of none.


I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
Pre-nerf, the Drake was objectively a stronger tank/spank ship than the Cane. Only the dual neuts gave the Cane an opening to win, allowing it to short-circuit an incredible tank. Was the Hurricane OP? Sure. But so was the Drake.

But I'm talking about today. Now.
Hurricane was beaten hard - yet I can still easily draw up common, 1 on 1 scenarios where it can destroy, or alternatively escape similar ships like the Brutix or the Harbinger. (and lose in others)

Not so with the HAM Drake. There is NO likely situation where a HAM Drake is killed by ANY Hurricane. Vs Arty Canes, the Short-Ranged Drake must withdraw....eventually - but will never be killed. Vs AutoCanes, the HAM Drake eats them all for breakfast.

Nor can I draw up a Brutix or Harbinger fit that poses a serious challenge to the HAM Drake.

If you can dope out a non-metagamed fit (ie doesn't simply load up on Kinetic Resists - because you could be fighting anything, not just Drakes) - I'm all ears. Be specific about your fitting choices.
Ozzirrius
Perkone
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-02-22 00:24:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ozzirrius
Herr Wilkus wrote:

I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
Pre-nerf, the Drake was objectively a stronger tank/spank ship than the Cane. Only the dual neuts gave the Cane an opening to win, allowing it to short-circuit an incredible tank. Was the Hurricane OP? Sure. But so was the Drake.

But I'm talking about today. Now.
Hurricane was beaten hard - yet I can still easily draw up common, 1 on 1 scenarios where it can destroy, or alternatively escape similar ships like the Brutix or the Harbinger. (and lose in others)

Not so with the HAM Drake. There is NO likely situation where a HAM Drake is killed by ANY Hurricane. Vs Arty Canes, the Short-Ranged Drake must withdraw....eventually - but will never be killed. Vs AutoCanes, the HAM Drake eats them all for breakfast.

Nor can I draw up a Brutix or Harbinger fit that poses a serious challenge to the HAM Drake.

If you can dope out a non-metagamed fit (ie doesn't simply load up on Kinetic Resists - because you could be fighting anything, not just Drakes) - I'm all ears. Be specific about your fitting choices.




Are you suggesting that BCs should be balanced around Hurricane vs HAM Drake?
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-02-22 00:31:14 UTC
"My kite ship can kill your brawler!!!11!1"

Rofl.

Drake is king, live with it.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#38 - 2013-02-22 01:12:27 UTC
Ozzirrius wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:

I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
Pre-nerf, the Drake was objectively a stronger tank/spank ship than the Cane. Only the dual neuts gave the Cane an opening to win, allowing it to short-circuit an incredible tank. Was the Hurricane OP? Sure. But so was the Drake.

But I'm talking about today. Now.
Hurricane was beaten hard - yet I can still easily draw up common, 1 on 1 scenarios where it can destroy, or alternatively escape similar ships like the Brutix or the Harbinger. (and lose in others)

Not so with the HAM Drake. There is NO likely situation where a HAM Drake is killed by ANY Hurricane. Vs Arty Canes, the Short-Ranged Drake must withdraw....eventually - but will never be killed. Vs AutoCanes, the HAM Drake eats them all for breakfast.

Nor can I draw up a Brutix or Harbinger fit that poses a serious challenge to the HAM Drake.

If you can dope out a non-metagamed fit (ie doesn't simply load up on Kinetic Resists - because you could be fighting anything, not just Drakes) - I'm all ears. Be specific about your fitting choices.




Are you suggesting that BCs should be balanced around Hurricane vs HAM Drake?


Nope, suggesting the Drake is well out of step with the other BC's in power level.
I'm realizing it has less to do with the Cane, and more to do with the Drake.

Prove me wrong, show me a Tier 1/2 BC fit that kills an HAM Drake 1 vs 1. (and I mean KILL, not 'drive off'.)
And don't waste my time meta-tanking like a ****** - stacking up a 95% vs Kinetic is simply unrealistic because you don't always fight Drakes. Stay honest, stick to plugging holes and EANM/Invulns.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-02-22 01:18:02 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Ozzirrius wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:

I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
Pre-nerf, the Drake was objectively a stronger tank/spank ship than the Cane. Only the dual neuts gave the Cane an opening to win, allowing it to short-circuit an incredible tank. Was the Hurricane OP? Sure. But so was the Drake.

But I'm talking about today. Now.
Hurricane was beaten hard - yet I can still easily draw up common, 1 on 1 scenarios where it can destroy, or alternatively escape similar ships like the Brutix or the Harbinger. (and lose in others)

Not so with the HAM Drake. There is NO likely situation where a HAM Drake is killed by ANY Hurricane. Vs Arty Canes, the Short-Ranged Drake must withdraw....eventually - but will never be killed. Vs AutoCanes, the HAM Drake eats them all for breakfast.

Nor can I draw up a Brutix or Harbinger fit that poses a serious challenge to the HAM Drake.

If you can dope out a non-metagamed fit (ie doesn't simply load up on Kinetic Resists - because you could be fighting anything, not just Drakes) - I'm all ears. Be specific about your fitting choices.




Are you suggesting that BCs should be balanced around Hurricane vs HAM Drake?


Nope, suggesting the Drake is well out of step with the other BC's in power level.
I'm realizing it has less to do with the Cane, and more to do with the Drake.

Prove me wrong, show me a Tier 1/2 BC fit that kills an HAM Drake 1 vs 1. (and I mean KILL, not 'drive off'.)
And don't waste my time meta-tanking like a ****** - stacking up a 95% vs Kinetic is simply unrealistic because you don't always fight Drakes. Stay honest, stick to plugging holes and EANM/Invulns.


You don't gotta explain yourself bud, what you said was true. Drake is still OP. Lol
Kin Netics
Perkone
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-02-22 05:26:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Kin Netics
It seems like Drakes got a little buff... Caldari need it atm bad