These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Advenus Classem Announcement to the State

Author
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#61 - 2013-02-21 20:16:20 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:

Let's not play the moral equivalence game; the Elders did what they did in order to preserve the last of a people the Amarr tried to exterminate centuries ago.


By attacking Sarum Prime and Kor Azor ?
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
#62 - 2013-02-21 22:52:45 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:

I submit that humanity has never been unified and likely never will be because of the fact that we're humans and have free will. If your goal is this unification (by force, if your rule is not accepted) then, I see absolutely no difference between your people and Kuvakei's Nation. Remember that he also wants to unite all mankind under his vision of utopia.


Unification does not imply agreement on all matters. The great houses of the Empire hardly agree on all matters.

Your vision of 'no man is inherently worth more than another and that no man has the right to force his will upon another' is according to you not inherently better than the Amarr one, but yet you are willing to use force to uphold that vision.
Nicoletta Mithra
Tekaima Community of New Eden Pilgrims
Khimi Harar
#63 - 2013-02-21 23:38:14 UTC
A good question to pose, Cpt. Kyiokkinen.

"What to do about those that politely decline?" Allow me to get back to the Khanid situation first, before I answer your question more directly:

It's not like that the moment the Amarr showed up all Khanid converted freely. Rather it was a process that needed time. Still, yet, they weren't forced into convesion. If someone politely declines to convert than this apparently means that he needs still time to consider what is at stake. There is no need to force someone who is able to make decisions responsibly and acts accordingly. Only when someone shows that he is not able to take up responsibility for himself there is a necessity to guide them and only if someone goes against what is righteous there is a need to employ force in this.

Or to say it in another way: Even thugh the Caldari seem to lack proper fear of God (Though one might be surprised by what theological investigation into the matter might reveal if the Amarr and the Caldari work more closely together to come to a true bilateral understanding.) they are accepted as righteous people. Force can only prevent people from doing unrighteous things. Thus there is no need of forcing the Caldari to change in any way, unless they loose the Caldari way. Thus it is proper for the Amarrian faithful to encourage his Caldari allies in their way and to trust that in time they will see that the view of the Caldari Wayist, that the world is a test to forge the worthy, and the view of the Amarrian church, that humanity has to be reunited in a fulfilling and harmonious relationship to God, are views on one and the same thing and that they only differ in perspective as humans start on their path to the singular divine source from different positions, but lastly strive by the very nature of creation towards the same goal.

As to you, Ms Rella:

As you might be able to inferr from what I said above, there is no "offer" in the matter of Reclaiming. Rather it's a question of whether someone is having the abilities necessary to see the underlying truth or not. If those qualities are missing, they need to be groomed. The Empire, whether it was right or wrong in that assessment, judged the Minmatar to be lacking in those abilities and therefore decided that the Matari need to be educated before they could make their own choices responsibly. The Caldari were judged to be in possession of those qualities in which we found the Matari lacking when we first encountered them. That is why these two cases are not compareable.

As to your question "Just who the hell do you people think you are?", I only have to respond that you miss the finer points of Amarrian theology here. The chosen are those that "live righteously and in fear of God". A mans worth is not inherent in the fact that one man is that man and the other man another, but in their choice to live rightous and in fear of God. The rightous man is worth more than the unrighteous man, exactly because the worth of a man is measured by how righteous he is, that is, that he does what is right, rather than what is wrong. And if someone does the wrong thing everyone else is entitled, nay, has the duty, to stop this someone from doing the wrong thing. By use of appropriate force, if necessary.

Now as to your claim that the "Empire chooses to plow ahead using whatever means necessary (including force of arms, mass murder, slavery, cultural imperialism) to accomplish its goals" I'd like to note again that the Empire was a force for peace the better time of the recent past, while it was the Matari Elders that choose to use the tools of force of arms, mass murder and terrorism to accomplish their goals, even though they were certainly not necessary in the extent that they were utilized. And again, that the Empire might have been guilty of the same offense, doesn't justify a bit to commit them now.

As to whether humanity has ever been unified or not, I'd say that you'd have a hard time proving that it never was. Also, the 'fact' that humans have free will (if we accept that claim for the arguments sake) has not to conflict in the least with the goal of (re)uniting humanity in a fulfilling and harmonious relationship with the singular divine source, as such a unification in a relationship to the divine leaves plenty of room for the excercise of 'free will', especially as entering a relationship with the divine is always choosen 'freely' and (hopefully) out of the insight that it is the right thing to do. Choosing to do the right thing doesn't mean, though, that we could not choose to do the wrong thing, it just means that we don't choose the latter.

Kuvakei, is another animal entirely, as he got frustrated with the unwillingness of other people to choose to do what he perceived to be the right thing and therefore decided to supplant their individual wills and decisions with his own, eliminating their status as persons and humans, as he lacked the patience to do the right thing and educate those people and train them to choose responsibly. His impatience lead him down a dark path surely.

If one is unable to see the difference between striving to enable all humanity to choose freely to collectively strive for what is right and good, beautiful and true on the one hand and one person trying to eliminate the will of everyone else to get his own on the other, than there must be some deep confusion in place.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#64 - 2013-02-22 00:54:32 UTC
Cpt.Stitcher... my aunt's staff includes a bodyguard who practices a sort of pseudo-religion called "boo-she-doe" that apparently originated within the State. And we have no problem with that. I honestly think it's what makes him so dedicated to his job and have considered petitioning introducing this idea to our Kameira forces.

We gain much from Caldari culture. Oh, and have you noticed that the designs for our Dragoons, Arbitrators and Prophecy ships now include multiple rocket launcher mounts? We are not as stagnant as some would like to believe. We learn and adapt. We're not above borrowing good ideas from others.

So there's something for you to chew on for a bit: The Amarr are being more open-minded than yourself.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0