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[Retribution 1.1] Armor Tanking 1.5

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Mund Richard
#1461 - 2013-02-18 12:31:14 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
All the deapspace armour repariers work on the following cap efficiency ratios:
C) 2.2/gj
B) 2.4/gj
A) 2.6/gj
X) 2.8/gj

The only real changes are cap draw and rep amount, which all maintain the same ratio.

Pith boosters:
C) 1.65/gj
B) 1.8/gj
A) 1.935/gj
X) 2.1/gj

Gist boosters: (This is the interesting one)
C) 2.389/gj
B) 2.447/gj
A) 2.5/gj
X) 2.637/gj
Tell me what I'm doing wrong, because LAR vs XLASB I get these with max skill no implant/boost:
Corpus:
2.2
2.4
2.6
2.8
so far so good

Pith:
1.83
2.00
2.166
2.333
A bit better than yours

Gist:
3.26
3.42
3.51
3.66
NOT just a bit better than yorus

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Mund Richard
#1462 - 2013-02-18 12:41:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
(used C-types as "starts with")
Corpus LAR starts at 2.2
Corpum MAR starts at 2.2
Corpii SAR starts at 2.2

Gist XLSB starts at 3.25 ...
Gist LSB starts at 2.654
Gistum MSB at 4.028 (WTF)
Gistii SSB starts at 3.94 (once more, chorus!)

Pith XLSB starts at 1.833
Pith LSB starts at 1.833
Pithum MSB starts at 3.018 (ok, seriously WTF)
Pithii SSB starts at 3.055 (aaand once more, chorus!)


Do I even need to point out my conclusion? Evil
Disclaimer: Numbers do NOT include any of the following: OGB, SBA, rig, Implant or hull bonus.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1463 - 2013-02-18 15:36:12 UTC
I know I am late to the party on this one but. One question I had was shouldn't one more armor rig be swapped to pg. I am talking about the remote repair rig. This does not make sense to have a speed reduction with it.

Thanks
Fred
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#1464 - 2013-02-18 17:07:58 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
All the deapspace armour repariers work on the following cap efficiency ratios:
C) 2.2/gj
B) 2.4/gj
A) 2.6/gj
X) 2.8/gj

The only real changes are cap draw and rep amount, which all maintain the same ratio.

Pith boosters:
C) 1.65/gj
B) 1.8/gj
A) 1.935/gj
X) 2.1/gj

Gist boosters: (This is the interesting one)
C) 2.389/gj
B) 2.447/gj
A) 2.5/gj
X) 2.637/gj
Tell me what I'm doing wrong, because LAR vs XLASB I get these with max skill no implant/boost:
Corpus:
2.2
2.4
2.6
2.8
so far so good

Pith:
1.83
2.00
2.166
2.333
A bit better than yours

Gist:
3.26
3.42
3.51
3.66
NOT just a bit better than yorus

That would be because I used stock 'baseline' modules, sans skills. I believe we need to balance both skills and modules, but not against each other per say. Comparing at all 5's does not solve the issue of module disparity.

Mund Richard wrote:
(used C-types as "starts with")
Corpus LAR starts at 2.2
Corpum MAR starts at 2.2
Corpii SAR starts at 2.2

Gist XLSB starts at 3.25 ...
Gist LSB starts at 2.654
Gistum MSB at 4.028 (WTF)
Gistii SSB starts at 3.94 (once more, chorus!)

Pith XLSB starts at 1.833
Pith LSB starts at 1.833
Pithum MSB starts at 3.018 (ok, seriously WTF)
Pithii SSB starts at 3.055 (aaand once more, chorus!)


Do I even need to point out my conclusion? Evil
Disclaimer: Numbers do NOT include any of the following: OGB, SBA, rig, Implant or hull bonus.

I was at work and only had access to my phone. I am home now and have expanded my former spreadsheet to include stats from all 4 sizes of shield booster, as well as all the deapsace boosters, navy boosters, T1's, T2's and Ancillaries (without caps.) I have also included a section for "All 5's" as well as the stock baseline.
I have taken the Boost amount, The Cap draw and the Cycle time and set it up to display Boost/Cap, Boost/Second and Cap/Second.

I was working from purely from the large statistics, as I had them at hand. I had, (wrongly,) assumed that the statistics would be stable across the size differences. As my Grandmother always said, "Never assume anything. It just makes an ASS out of U and ME."

How right she was...

The numbers I have just seen are staggering, and not in a good way.

They don't match yours, but they are similar:

Small__+/gj____5's
T1____1.150_1.278
T2____1.500_1.667
Gisti C_3.545_3.939
Gisti B_3.417_3.796
Gisti A_4.385_4.872
Pithi C_2.750_3.056
Pithi B_3.250_3.611
Pithi A_3.800_4.222
Ancillary_0.788_0.875

Medium_+/gj____5's
T1____1.133_1.259
T2____1.500_1.667
Gisti C_3.625_4.028
Gisti B_3.543_3.937
Gisti A_4.474_4.971
Pithi C_2.717_3.019
Pithi B_3.233_3.593
Pithi A_3.800_4.222
Ancillary_0.737_0.819

Large__+/gj____5's
T1____1.125_1.250
T2____1.500_1.667
Gisti C_2.389_2.654
Gisti B_2.447_2.719
Gisti A_2.500_2.778
Gisti X_2.637_2.930
Pithi C_1.650_1.833
Pithi B_1.800_2.000
Pithi A_1.950_2.167
Pithi X_2.100_2.333
Ancillary_0.739_0.821

XL_____+/gj___5's
T1____1.125_1.250
T2____1.500_1.667
Gisti C_2.933_3.259
Gisti B_3.080_3.422
Gisti A_3.163_3.515
Gisti X_3.294_3.660
Pithi C_1.650_1.833
Pithi B_1.800_2.000
Pithi A_1.950_2.167
Pithi X_2.100_2.333
Ancillary_0.742_0.825

The Gistum A-Type Medium Shield Booster, with All V's skills, has a cap efficiency of 4.971
What
The
FCUK???
ShockedQuestionShockedQuestionShocked

Yeah, that needs looking at.

Friends
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#1465 - 2013-02-18 18:20:02 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:

The Gistum A-Type Medium Shield Booster, with All V's skills, has a cap efficiency of 4.971
What
The
****???
ShockedQuestionShockedQuestionShocked

Yeah, that needs looking at.

Yeah, and this all comes back to how shield Deadspace is out of line and needs to get fixed. Not all of it, sure. Some of it might just need a little tweaking, but some shield Deadspace modules are broken as **** and need to get brought down hard. But I really don't think people should be taking outliers that are clearly broken into the equation when comparing for balance. I'd say compare using the baseline and **** on these certain modules hard so they don't stand so far outside the norm.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1466 - 2013-02-18 21:38:06 UTC
Unless I'm misreading you all were also only taking the base booster module.
Then add in the rigs/Deadspace Amps(Which are also common) & that problem on the base Deadspace shield boosters gets multiplied by the amp ratio.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#1467 - 2013-02-18 21:38:42 UTC
I agree. I was pointing put the scale by which deadspace mods are imbalanced is all.

Friends
Mund Richard
#1468 - 2013-02-18 21:38:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
That would be because I used stock 'baseline' modules, sans skills. I believe we need to balance both skills and modules, but not against each other per say. Comparing at all 5's does not solve the issue of module disparity.
No it does not.
But since the chars who use deadspace modules are more likely to be closer to all V than all 0, I'd prefer an all V comparison. Roll

Seems to me the differences between our numbers are just due to irregular rounding.

And yes, things are messed up.

Goldensaver wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:

The Gistum A-Type Medium Shield Booster, with All V's skills, has a cap efficiency of 4.971
What
The
****???
ShockedQuestionShockedQuestionShocked

Yeah, that needs looking at.

Yeah, and this all comes back to how shield Deadspace is out of line and needs to get fixed. Not all of it, sure. Some of it might just need a little tweaking, but some shield Deadspace modules are broken as **** and need to get brought down hard. But I really don't think people should be taking outliers that are clearly broken into the equation when comparing for balance. I'd say compare using the baseline and **** on these certain modules hard so they don't stand so far outside the norm.

I don't really see any good reason to break molds.
As far as I checked (was not exhaustive) armor modules have a 2.2-2.8 cap efficiency across the board, with two variants, "Gallente" ones consuming less cap and thus repairing less, while "Amarr" ones being stronger and more thirsty.

On the other hand, for shield - as we saw - the ratios are all over the place, and they beat armor in both efficiency and even raw amount (due to oversize) quite easily.
The "most fair" solution would be "obviously" to make shield copy armor, only at their appropriate efficiency ratios.
T2 armor rep has a cap efficiency of 2.0, gets 10% better on C-type deadspace and then another 10% base for each additional "tier", 40% better than T2 for X-Type,
T2 shield rep has a cap efficiency of 1.666, so should get somewhere 10% better or so as well, capping out at +40%, which is 2.333.
L and XL Pith boosters are there PRECISELY(acording to Hakan's latest), from C to X-type Attention
The smaller ones and all Gist (beating X-type armor rep with C-type on all levels but large) are out of whack.

That opens up a can of worms possibly/obviously, such as how cap power relays kill shield regen, and cap recharges are midslot items. Although you have the rigs for CCC, as there isn't any good shield rig competing against it, ASBs are midslot. And stuff like that.
But at least making them uniform across the board (gist compared to gist, pith compared to pith) would be already a big improvement towards leveling the field.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Mund Richard
#1469 - 2013-02-18 21:45:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Unless I'm misreading you all were also only taking the base booster module.
Then add in the rigs/Deadspace Amps(Which are also common) & that problem on the base Deadspace shield boosters gets multiplied by the amp ratio.

Well, if we went implants and OGB, you could go over a 20.0 efficiency, using only one ASB.

But let's stick to boosters being fair against repair modules as a first aim.

Invulns and SBAs make the difference larger ofc, but that's mainly due to the difference in module kinds, not modules having outright imbalanced stats compared to THEIR OWN tier one/two versions.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
whaynethepain
#1470 - 2013-02-19 00:05:42 UTC
Yea, should be good fun, can't wait, thanks.

I didn't see anyone mention ships should have a charges hold.

All these extra cap booster charges and nano paste and ammo are really eating into my potential for looting wrecks and carrying about my exotic dancers.

Getting you on your feet.

So you've further to fall.
NVRYNZWS Escort
Doomheim
#1471 - 2013-02-19 03:40:54 UTC
re: the plates not listed under the bonus

1600mm
400mm

isn't the easy way to say it is

those are the only two which already had the proper weight marked on their labels

and now the ones listed have been adjusted to show their actual weight as they have always been

re: the ammo on these aar's

isn't it about the amount of nanite repair paste?

re: the powergrid use

doesnt this mean simply again that better testing of already constructed devices with better measuring and assesment equipment has led to the inaccurate descriptors being recalculated to more apparent actualities than any inherent redesign...

that would surely address the faction modules created in pirate factions lab as still being in research to figure out how and why they work

from a logistics point of view any and all tools that affect my targets is of interest
for those using armor i see nothing but usable applications of the information here

kudos
Dr Romulous
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1472 - 2013-02-19 10:51:20 UTC
Where can i get the BPC for the Ancillary Armor Repairer?
Alxea
Unstable Pirate Sharks Of The Damed Sea
#1473 - 2013-02-19 11:02:10 UTC
Allison A'vani wrote:
Quote:
Change the penalty on all active armor rigs (Aux Nano Pump, Nanobot Accelerator, and the new Nanobot Overcharger) to increase the powergrid use of local armor reps by 10% instead of reducing ship velocity.



This makes the hyperion very hard to fit, also your new mod is not as good as two faction reps.

I was able to fit a hyperion with 2 T2 large reps and a large AAR perfectly fine with armor rigs. Perhaps your skills are in need of upping to fit a beast hype properly. Its cap stable for me and will tank like a beast. 2 faction reps are not cost effective.
Mund Richard
#1474 - 2013-02-19 11:22:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Alxea wrote:
Allison A'vani wrote:
Quote:
Change the penalty on all active armor rigs (Aux Nano Pump, Nanobot Accelerator, and the new Nanobot Overcharger) to increase the powergrid use of local armor reps by 10% instead of reducing ship velocity.
This makes the hyperion very hard to fit, also your new mod is not as good as two faction reps.
I was able to fit a hyperion with 2 T2 large reps and a large AAR perfectly fine with armor rigs. Perhaps your skills are in need of upping to fit a beast hype properly. Its cap stable for me and will tank like a beast. 2 faction reps are not cost effective.
Not sure why Allison said the new mod ain't as good as two faction reps when it ain't as good as two T2 reps, just opened herself to a retort like that.

With the change to LAR PG and the rigs, with a skill of V, using 2 LAR and 2 rigs, you in fact win a tiny bit of PG, and with skill at IV you lose around 2.25% of the PG of the LARs, which I hope is somewhere around 93 PG for double large T2 (tiny bit less less than 0.43% of a Hyperion's total grid with engineering), slightly less for LAR+LAAR.

The main problem(?) is not that it's not twice as effective as T2 even while loaded, ASBs aren't as well, the difference is that ASBs do so without cap, and being oversized you don't need multiple repair modules. Armor does have all those drawbacks, and the AAR has a fitting limit of one, when it would make more sense for the ASBs to have it.

Wait... did you reply to someone from page two and almost a month ago?

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
armed okie
Black Security Services
#1475 - 2013-02-19 18:37:44 UTC
Ancillary Armor Repairer
Not the same mechanic as the ASB, please read to the end.
Always uses the same cap as a normal (T1/T2/Named) Armor Repper
When not loaded with Nanite Repair Paste, has 3/4 the rep amount as a T1 Armor Repairer
When loaded with Nanite Repair Paste triples rep amount (so reps 2.25x a T1 repairer when loaded)
Same cycle time and fittings as T1 reps
Smalls use 1 paste per cycle, mediums 4, larges 8. Can hold 8 cycles worth of paste at a time. Reload time is 1 minute just like an ASB, but the longer cycle time of armor reps means it goes longer between reloads
Limited to one per ship


ok since you did this where can i locate these since there are none on the market in the meedium and small sizes what npcs am i supposed to go after to get em?
Zach meii
From the Depths into Lights and Shadows
#1476 - 2013-02-20 07:23:47 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
xo3e wrote:
lold

so :ccp:
are you even playing your own game?

armor is so bad not because reps rep nothing or because buffer is insufficient.

the problem with armor is generally because majority of armor boats cant do shet against kiting
and it follows that you cant escape shet when you need to. and all your super-slaved-buffers-with-bonus-legion will not help you.

im talking about solo-to-small-scale warfare.


If only we were letting you reduce the mass penalty of all your plates by 25%, and for active tankers remove the speed penalty on the rigs? That would be great maybe we should do that. Lol
Zach meii
From the Depths into Lights and Shadows
#1477 - 2013-02-20 07:35:46 UTC
And my part of post doesn't show up awesome. Question
Mund Richard
#1478 - 2013-02-20 08:50:12 UTC
Zach meii wrote:
And my part of post doesn't show up awesome. Question

Forum eats a lot of posts.
Something to do with drafts and the way they are handled.
Had Google Chrome save me several times going "back".

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#1479 - 2013-02-21 04:00:08 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ancillary Armor Repairer[/u]
  • Not the same mechanic as the ASB, please read to the end.
  • Always uses the same cap as a normal (T1/T2/Named) Armor Repper
  • When not loaded with Nanite Repair Paste, has 3/4 the rep amount as a T1 Armor Repairer
  • When loaded with Nanite Repair Paste triples rep amount (so reps 2.25x a T1 repairer when loaded)
  • Same cycle time and fittings as T1 reps
  • Smalls use 1 paste per cycle, mediums 4, larges 8. Can hold 8 cycles worth of paste at a time. Reload time is 1 minute just like an ASB, but the longer cycle time of armor reps means it goes longer between reloads

    • Problem here is that cap boosters are made from common belt minerals and are thus are easily to manufacture and/acquire in absurd quantities. Nanite paste, on the other hand, is a PI product and pretty complicated one at that. It's a whole level of magnitude more of a headache to manufacture and/or acquire.

    So either make it use cap boosters, invent a new thing for AAR fuel made just as easily as cap boosters, or move nanite paste out of PI and into the plain old fashioned BPO zone. I know none of these ideas will make you happy, but you can't deny that there is a fairness imbalance when it comes to feeding these two modules (ASB vs AAR).

    http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
    Goldensaver
    Maraque Enterprises
    Just let it happen
    #1480 - 2013-02-21 06:05:02 UTC
    Katran Luftschreck wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Ancillary Armor Repairer[/u]
  • Not the same mechanic as the ASB, please read to the end.
  • Always uses the same cap as a normal (T1/T2/Named) Armor Repper
  • When not loaded with Nanite Repair Paste, has 3/4 the rep amount as a T1 Armor Repairer
  • When loaded with Nanite Repair Paste triples rep amount (so reps 2.25x a T1 repairer when loaded)
  • Same cycle time and fittings as T1 reps
  • Smalls use 1 paste per cycle, mediums 4, larges 8. Can hold 8 cycles worth of paste at a time. Reload time is 1 minute just like an ASB, but the longer cycle time of armor reps means it goes longer between reloads

    • Problem here is that cap boosters are made from common belt minerals and are thus are easily to manufacture and/acquire in absurd quantities. Nanite paste, on the other hand, is a PI product and pretty complicated one at that. It's a whole level of magnitude more of a headache to manufacture and/or acquire.

    So either make it use cap boosters, invent a new thing for AAR fuel made just as easily as cap boosters, or move nanite paste out of PI and into the plain old fashioned BPO zone. I know none of these ideas will make you happy, but you can't deny that there is a fairness imbalance when it comes to feeding these two modules (ASB vs AAR).

    It was cap boosters before. Due to popular demand they changed it to Paste. It appears they just can't appease everyone.