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EVE Online: Retribution 1.1 Feedback

First post
Author
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#341 - 2013-02-21 00:22:15 UTC
Thanks for explaining why the split was done. It makes sense now that you put it that way.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Paul Panala
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#342 - 2013-02-21 00:26:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Paul Panala
I love the new Dueling system! We really needed that. One quick suggestion.

In a crowded system like Jita, it can be hard to figure out the ship that is challenging you. It would be nice if the challenge screen showed the pilot and his current ship. A button to target the ship would also be really helpful.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#343 - 2013-02-21 00:43:32 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

- Excellent Stuff -

Damn. That makes good sense.

Thanks!
Cool

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc

Lomaria Miraldi
Interstellar Expeditionary Group
#344 - 2013-02-21 01:02:06 UTC
Why did you eviscerate the Battle Cruisers. I loved my myrm for PVE Now it is half the BC that is was before (hyperbole intended). Now what I am going to do with all of the BCs I have. Geez, this game keeps changing so much, It kind of makes you just want to save your isk, and not buy or build anything because in a few months it could be turned into junk by a game change. How can you plan anything when the sand in the sandbox keeps moving in ways you can't predict or understand.

I have been playing since last August, and the changes just keep shifting things around. I almost don't know what I want to do anymore.

What I'd like is a little more stability in the game foundation, and less changes so fast.
Ellenn Ripleyy
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#345 - 2013-02-21 01:04:32 UTC
I dont like the fact you now warp in 17km away from the mission gates! WHY?! WHy!? X
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#346 - 2013-02-21 01:18:31 UTC
Lomaria Miraldi wrote:
Why did you eviscerate the Battle Cruisers. I loved my myrm for PVE Now it is half the BC that is was before (hyperbole intended). Now what I am going to do with all of the BCs I have. Geez, this game keeps changing so much, It kind of makes you just want to save your isk, and not buy or build anything because in a few months it could be turned into junk by a game change. How can you plan anything when the sand in the sandbox keeps moving in ways you can't predict or understand.

I have been playing since last August, and the changes just keep shifting things around. I almost don't know what I want to do anymore.

What I'd like is a little more stability in the game foundation, and less changes so fast.


Some times it's the evil goons who kick your sand castle. Pirate

Some times it's the most evil CCP devs who kick your sand castle. And evilly cackle! Twisted
Shun Makoto
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#347 - 2013-02-21 01:26:49 UTC
I'm seeing a lot of bitching about things that don't need to be bitched about...

We knew the BC Tiericide was coming for a long while now people. If you didn't get on SiSi and see changes for yourself that's your fault.

Kaalakiota-Kaatso Taokeruu Kaltiovon ArK. (Kalaakiota Business Research Corporation)

Head of Security

...................................

Kaalakiota Corporation

Patriot Faction

Kaylyis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#348 - 2013-02-21 01:47:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaylyis
Ok, I've actually tested the changes to the gallente armor tanking before posting. i have a couple good points to go over first. i will not be touching the minmatar cruiser changes, because i think the nerfhammer came down way too hard. i will only be commenting on changes I have tested.


The good:

Armor Honeycombing: At level 3 I have a Hyperion booking at 909 M/s with dual 1600mm rolled tungsten and an experimental MWD. I like this. I like this a lot.

Battlecruiser damage buffs: brutix hits harder, and can now move faster. Myrmidon got a desperately needed buff to damage in the ability to field more sentries or heavies.

Reactive armor hardener: This module has a lot more use when you can put armor plates on your ship and not gimp your tank and when the hardener cycles are faster and cost less. Is it perfect? Absolutely not but it serves as a decent stopgap over using normal hardeners. I actually like this unit more than most do as far as the new modules go.


The Bad:

Heavy Missiles in general after much testing: The rumor we have been hearing is that the heavy missiles were nerfed because of the Tengu. On just about every other boat (especially the Drake) HMs provide decent damage projection but poor damage output, offset only by the ability to select damage type. The nerf has further made them into a joke that just isn't funny. I'm not a T2 missile user but when I'm struggling to achieve 300 DPS on a drake that isn't passive tanked old style I believe this creates a bit of a problem when you nerf it and suddenly the damage output is comparable to a frigate with T2 guns.

AAR: I have not tested this module, however, I have to comment on the still vastly lackluster performance of even tech 2 armor repair modules. Basically anyone who runs a PvE fit will replace their armor rep tank with one of these. The regular armor modules fail to pass muster for improvement of armor survivability even passingly. So far the rep side of the game is rather lackluster at best, with T2 logi being necessary for any armor fleet. My objection here is that it puts T2 armor repair into obsolescence without significantly having value in an armor fleet, where buffer is always better than on-ship repair.

Cap usage for armor tank: Armor vulnerability to neutralizers is still rather obnoxious in that in order to be sustainable you pretty much need a capbuddy. Shields still regenerate on their own and you can fit a ship for fast shield recovery on the fly. You cannot do this with armor, absolutely mandating a cap booster or capaciter transfer if you wish to be able to use your midslots and be able to maintain respectable damage. Even shield tanks have the option for an ASB. Armor tanks need some way to resist being completely wiped out of all offensive and defensive capacity at once by neuts. Especially since both armor races are capacitor hungry on the weapons they are bonused from.

Finally: The Gallente armor repair bonus is just about as worthless as it has always been. The aforementioned hyperion and a brutix were both tested with T2 armor tank setups as well as T2 reps. In both cases the amount of reps (which cannot be made cap stable at all without gimping the ability to nail a target or forgoing necessary tackle) is exceedingly laughable. basically for the gallente bonus to really matter, you have to have an AAR or you absolutely must dual-rep which chokes off your ship in major ways both in combat utility and fitting.

Now, my attempt at constructive suggestions:

Damage control modules: They're damage control systems, repair terams, etc: When activated give the DC units the capacity to passively regenerate hull, then armor, in that order. Doesn't even need to be a large amount to be useful, especially if the ability can be enhanced in other ways with existing skills. And if that happens, it doesn't gimp shield tankers as they benefit as well.

Gallente Armor repair bonus: Chuck it. Gallente ships are always described as that thing you must desperately keep away from your own vessels. if they get close, you die to blaster spam. Functionally it's still difficult to bridge that gap. Give the gallente the option to "DPS tank" instead of the Amarr resist copy/paste idea. removing the rep bonus and adding tracking or an optimal blaster boost, or even a reduction to cap usage of prop mods will make the ships dangerous in their own right. make it so Gallente boats actually making it to your fleet is an actual threat. Without some kind of bonus to their armor they'll be more dependent upon external reps in fleets, which is bluntly where they are now, as fleet doctrines are more efficient with external repair sources. The Gallente bonus is by and large the most unused bonus except on baitships, and the boost it gives to existing armor repair units is only useful really on pure resistance fits.

Micro Jump Drive: No one I know uses it. it has potential. make it a module that activates on lock-on. You lock a target, and do a micro-jump to 50 Km from the target. Reduced by 5 Km per point of the skill. The only other use I can think of for it is hopscotching arty/beams/rails out of range when enemies get too close.

Honest opinion? I have no idea if any of these ideas are viable, but... my two cents, as I believe every ship should be capable of performing admirably on it's own merits and enhance a fleet it joins, as opposed to requiring fleet support to be functional at all.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#349 - 2013-02-21 02:10:27 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
[edit] Oh yeah, one other thing... 10 points for the first person to spot the place where this paradigm still doesn't work nicely, and 50 points for the first person to guess how we're solving that right now Cool

Carrier/supercarrier, Orca/Rorqual, Bomber/Covops and Force/Combat Recon ships seem like possible candidates, though how you'd be fixing it, I have no idea. That's assuming its not simply Tech III ships instead...in which case perhaps fitting a subsystem causes a Tech III cruiser to gain the appropriate group in addition to its normal one?

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Kaylyis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#350 - 2013-02-21 02:14:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaylyis
orca and rorqual. The industrial capital and industrial command ships are their own little special snowflakes that don't really fit except on their own.
Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#351 - 2013-02-21 02:35:27 UTC
Null bears are off in a little room by themselves f**** their brains out in joy, most everybody else is asking, why? for the love of god, why?
Intagus
Xana Tati factory inc
#352 - 2013-02-21 02:39:56 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
[edit] Oh yeah, one other thing... 10 points for the first person to spot the place where this paradigm still doesn't work nicely, and 50 points for the first person to guess how we're solving that right now Cool

I'd have to guess that it's t3s, as all the other things that need to fit special mods (like gang links and cov ops cloaks) seem to already be in their own group. T3s, however, need to be able to shed and gain groups almost on demand with this paradigm.

I suppose you might add a t3 to the "covert ops" and "command ship" groups when it fits the appropriate subsystems. That could cause problems though, especially if you can only be in one group at a time. You could add groups that are "command strategic cruiser" and "covert strategic cruiser" (and one that's both), but that might make for some clutter and weird-looking overview settings. The only other solution I can think of is to allow fitting (based on groups) of gank links, cov ops cloaks to any t3, but then disable the fitting on the ones that have the wrong subsystem.


On a completely unrelated note, with only 5 highs now, the part in the myrm's description about its "numerous high slots" is now kinda cheesy P
Tacct
Redemption Road
Affirmative.
#353 - 2013-02-21 02:44:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tacct
Missile shake shouldn't be occurring when you're not the target of the missile :\

Also it would be nice to be able to have shake effect on/off options separated. Just because someone doesn't want missile shake doesn't mean they don't want shake on during warping. (Though, If you tie it to missile effects you then annoy the people people who want the missile effects but not the shake)


Should have put the new ship types as default checked, with them unchecked by default you're likely to screw over quite a few people before they figure it out or read the forums.
Syri Taneka
NOVA-CAINE
#354 - 2013-02-21 03:02:40 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
[edit] Oh yeah, one other thing... 10 points for the first person to spot the place where this paradigm still doesn't work nicely, and 50 points for the first person to guess how we're solving that right now Cool


Carrier/Super, Bomber/Covops, Fleet/Force Recon, Strategic Cruisers. Anywhere that part of a group can fit a special module, and part can't.

Solution? I suspect that the offending ships are occupying multiple groups. In the case of recons, for example: Both Fleet and Force Recon ships belong to the, "Recon," group, while Fleet Recon ships also belong to some sort of, "Coverts," group.

In the case that a given object can only have one group, then I'd expect some dirty-but-simple ship-by-ship hardcoding.
Oberus MacKenzie
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#355 - 2013-02-21 03:22:41 UTC
Kaylyis wrote:
Heavy Missiles...
AAR:...
Cap usage for armor tank: ...
Damage control modules:...
Gallente armor repair bonus:...
Micro Jump Drive:...


On the heavy missiles, I couldn't agree more. The drake was used en masse because of it's ability to pack a tank and move around while projecting effective but low damage. Now CCP has made it so that the drake has a **meh** tank, poor damage projection and ABSOLUTE CRAP for damage.
Caldari ships in general are slow, have a crap capacitor and throw a weak punch. The only things that gave them even a shadow of viability in "average player" PvP were the drake, the heavy missile and ECM. The first two have been rendered totally useless and the third has been taking repeated kicks to the groin. CCP's plan to remove Caldari from the game is nearly complete, and I want my wasted skillpoints back.

As for AAR's, the point is not for them to prop you up against an entire fleet like a logistics team can. It gives armor a comparable module to the ASB, with a twist here n' there. One of these twists is that running it without fuel doesn't make your capacitor shrivel up and die. Another is that the fuel itself takes up almost no room in your cargo hold. Yet another is that there are rigs to assist the AAR, whereas there are none for the ASB. Best of all, those mods don't even have a real penalty anymore! (20% decrease in pg usage for armor reps plus 15% increase in pg usage from rigs equals... oh look, extra powergrid!)

Cap usage for armor tanking is far less than for shields and it's not like ASB ships aren't vulnerable to neuting. If you neut an ASB ship, you're gonna immobilize it and turn off it's invuln, at which point they are pretty much screwed. Really I think that armor has a huge advantage now, because they can fit cap boosters to combat neuting and keep their AAR going and still fit cap charges in their cargo because the nanite takes up no room.
Then there's the whole "cap used per HP repaired" discrepancy between shields and armor but I will avoid raging about that. **deep breaths**

Regenerating armor? Armor has a FAR superior buffer tank and shield regen tanking doesn't actually work in PvP. Shields slowly regenerate and can fit XL local reps, armor has higher natural resists and has 1600mm plates. Thus is the balance(TM) of the universe...

The Gallente armor rep bonus is going to be insanely good, IMO. They will be significantly faster than Amarr or Caldari ships thanks to the rig penalty changes and rep more thanks to AAR's. Both of those mean they will be very good at getting into blaster range. Prepare for the age of Gallente.

The HBC has a doctrine focused around micro jump drives and so far it has worked reasonably well. I would agree, though, they are a little strange.
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#356 - 2013-02-21 03:27:58 UTC
Dalilus wrote:
Null bears are off in a little room by themselves f**** their brains out in joy, most everybody else is asking, why? for the love of god, why?


Null bears are currently getting dunked left and right by hordes of eager Blops pilots, don't know about you
Deamon Drake
Bucket-O-Noobs
#357 - 2013-02-21 03:28:02 UTC
Ok, so I have a question/comment about the black ops BSs. they are supposed to be the be all end all fo sneaky ships. why is it that they can't fit Cov Ops cloaks and can not warp while cloaked?
Kaylyis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#358 - 2013-02-21 03:29:35 UTC
My complaint is less about the AAR and more the utility of the remaining reppers seems...lackluster by comparison. CCP calls them sustained tanking modules in some posts, but you can't really sustain them for long. If you could I wouldn't give a rat's ass about the amount they repped.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#359 - 2013-02-21 03:34:46 UTC
Lomaria Miraldi wrote:

What I'd like is a little more stability in the game foundation, and less changes so fast.


Haha most of these ships haven't changed in YEARS bro, get down off the cross.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Telistra
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#360 - 2013-02-21 04:02:08 UTC
Big smile

Thank you CCP, you gave me the motivation I needed to go back to flying my cruiser.

I'm happy I now have a reason to no longer use BattleCruisers. I was getting board of them.

Roll