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Missile Supports... WTF CCP?

Author
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#1 - 2013-02-09 19:41:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
For those of you interested in Gunnery supports, I have previously made a thread here for your perusal. I am going to assume that you have read the first post in that thread and continue with the missile supports. There will be comparisons made, but please try to keep the Missiles vs Gunnery comparisons civil.

OK, so like the gunnery tree, some of these skills and their ranks make sense, and others not so much.

Missile Launcher Operation .......(Rank 1)
Missile Bombardment ................(Rank 2)
Rapid Launch .............................(Rank 2)
Target Navigation Prediction ......(Rank 2) (Henceforth TNP)
Missile Projection .......................(Rank 4)
Guided Missile Precision ............(Rank 5) (henceforth GMP)
Warhead Upgrades ....................(Rank 5)

These mostly look fine, although I would probably increase the rank of Rapid Launch and decrease Warhead Upgrades due to the fact that 25% faster rate of fire will result in a MUCH larger increase in damage than 10% more damage.


Missile Launcher operation is identical to Gunnery in all respects, as is Rapid Launch vs Rapid Firing. I will ignore these skills. There are some other issues however. The main one is that it takes 99 days to train all the missile supports to V, yet only 85 days to train all the gunnery skills. The gunnery supports are flat out better as well due to all of them applying to 3 different weapon systems (6 if you want to call them Auto Cannons and Artillery instead of just Projectiles). I certainly think that the training time on things is out of whack.

1. Warhead Upgrades is a 2% bonus to damage and is rank 5, compared to the 3% bonus damage and rank 4 of Surgical Strike.
2. GMP and TNP are both effectively tracking for missiles. It is more complicated than that, and I'm not going to go into the maths. If someone feels like running the numbers, please do and post below. I will just note here that these two skills have 7 ranks of skills between them (2+5) as opposed to the rank 2 Motion Prediction.
3. Missile Bombardment and Missile Projection are basically +50% range each, and when combined they give a total of 125% more range when both skills are trained to V. The 25% optimal and 25% falloff bonuses of Sharpshooter and Trajectory Analysis translates to a maximum range increase of 25%, but because missiles don't have falloff to drastically cut the damage, these cannot reasonably be compared, although I think the missile skills are clearly better here.

What would I like to see happen? In addition to the changes I proposed in the Gunnery thread, I would make the following changes:

Missile Launcher Operation...............Rank 1
Missile Projection...............................Rank 2
Missile Bombardment........................Rank 2
GMP...................................................Rank 2
TNP....................................................Rank 3
Warhead Upgrades............................Rank 3
Rapid Launch.....................................Rank 5

I would also increase the bonus on Warhead Upgrades to 3% per level.

These changes would give the missile supports a total of 18 ranks of skills to train (currently 21, gunnery has 18) as well as bringing them more in line with the gunnery skills in terms of damage gained for time trained. I really think that missile users are getting a raw deal here, although I would like to see guns able to skip training the smaller versions to T2 before being able to train the larger guns. Making missiles require the smaller weapons before they could train the larger ones would be counter-productive for bomber pilots who otherwise don't use missiles at all.

And before someone goes there, these changes would not impact me at all, as I already have all this trained and am finishing my last gunnery support to V in 16 days.
Graham Nolen
Original Sinners
Northern Coalition.
#2 - 2013-02-09 22:12:43 UTC
Guns can miss missles can't. Not to mention you don't have to level up light miss to get heavies or ect.

not again.

GreenSeed
#3 - 2013-02-10 00:54:40 UTC
Déjà vu.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#4 - 2013-02-10 06:42:22 UTC
Graham Nolen wrote:
Guns can miss missles can't. Not to mention you don't have to level up light miss to get heavies or ect.


Glad to see you read the post. Nice job.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#5 - 2013-02-10 07:38:25 UTC
You're incorrect about the range thing, dude. Very incorrect.

Missile Bombartment and Projection each gives a +10% bonus per level. Training both to level 5 gives you a 125% range bonus.



Also, while I agree with you that Rapid Launch should maybe have its Rank upped a bit, and Warhead Upgrades lowered a bit, Rapid Launch makes you spend ammo faster, which costs ISK, while Warhead Upgrades doesn't. So yeah, maybe increase Rapid Launch to Rank 3, and lower Warhead Upgrades to Rank 4.

Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#6 - 2013-02-10 08:22:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
Salpad wrote:
You're incorrect about the range thing, dude. Very incorrect.

Missile Bombartment and Projection each gives a +10% bonus per level. Training both to level 5 gives you a 125% range bonus.


And that's what I get for posting at 4am. Thanks, and updated.

Salpad wrote:
Also, while I agree with you that Rapid Launch should maybe have its Rank upped a bit, and Warhead Upgrades lowered a bit, Rapid Launch makes you spend ammo faster, which costs ISK, while Warhead Upgrades doesn't. So yeah, maybe increase Rapid Launch to Rank 3, and lower Warhead Upgrades to Rank 4.


Cost is irrelevant, especially when we're talking about ammo. People will use what is best, even if the cost is many times greater than a cheaper alternative that is only slightly worse, see: Deadspace/faction everything.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2013-02-10 16:16:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
This just in. It's faster to train into T2 BS sized missiles than T2 BS sized guns but missile support skills take longer than gunnery support skills. Also we are getting unconfirmed reports that guns and missiles are in fact different. News at 11.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#8 - 2013-02-10 16:58:22 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
This just in. It's faster to train into T2 BS sized missiles than T2 BS sized guns but missile support skills take longer than gunnery support skills. Also we are getting unconfirmed reports that guns and missiles are in fact different. News at 11.


Covered in the OP, thanks for playing. Also, the news is at 6 and 10.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2013-02-11 09:47:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Verity Sovereign
Paikis wrote:
The 25% optimal and 25% falloff bonuses of Sharpshooter and Trajectory Analysis translates to a maximum range increase of 87.5%, but because missiles don't have falloff to drastically cut the damage, these cannot reasonably be compared,


Dude, you fail math.

Its not an 87.5% increase, its a simple 25% increase.

Imagine a gun with 100km optimal, 50km falloff. Optimal+falloff = 150km
Sharpshooter only: 100 -> 125km, 25% optimal boost, optimal + falloff= 175km = 16.67% increase
Traj analysis only: 50-> 62.5, 25% trajectory boost, optimal + falloff = 162.5 = 8.33% increase
Both: optimal +25%, trajectory + 25%, so optimal+ trajectory = 25% increase (125+62.5)/(100+50) = 1.25

Optimal and falloff boosts don't multiply with each other - but for missiles the speed and flight time boosts multiply each other.

5% per level vs 10% per level
additive vs multiplicative

1.25x range multiplier vs 2.25x multiplier

You get 5x the range bonus from the missile skills vs the gunnery skill - so yes, the rank should be much higher

TNP basically = motion prediction : they affect the attribute affected by targets speed (complicated a bit by the geometry to determine traversal, but 5x the target speed means 5x target traversal)

Guided missile precision -> has no equal - it affects the weapon attribute that is compared to target sig radius -> I've previously proposed a "precision gunnery" skill to do just this

So, in summary, when comparing training time, you should give the missile range skills a 0.2x weighting, as their bonus is 5x greater than the gunnery skills. - if not an even smaller weighting. Training just *ONE* of the missile skills to lvl *Three* gives you a larger bonus than training *TWO* of the gunnery skills to lvl *Five*
You should not include the skill guided missile precision, as gunnery support has nothing comparable to it.
And as you know, you also have the advantage of skipping the weapon classes you don't intend to use when training for T2.

Quote:
Missile Launcher Operation...............Rank 1
Missile Projection...............................Rank 2
Missile Bombardment........................Rank 2
GMP...................................................Rank 2
TNP....................................................Rank 3
Warhead Upgrades............................Rank 3
Rapid Launch.....................................Rank 5

I would also increase the bonus on Warhead Upgrades to 3% per level.

These changes would give the missile supports a total of 18 ranks of skills to train (currently 21, gunnery has 18)

So, form Missil Proj and Bombardment, you could skil bombardment altogether, and train proj to only lvl 3 to get a larger bonus than 4 ranks to lvl 5 of the gunnery skills, as each additional level is roughly 5x the training time we take the rank of 2, divide it by 5, and divide it by 5 again, to get an effective rank of 0.08.
Missile skill rank thus goes from 21 to 17.08
Then we take out GMP, as that bonus has no equal in gunnery. So that brings it down to 15.08 ranks vs 18.
For the 2% vs 3% benefit of warhead upgrades/surgical strike, I'll give you 1 ranks worth of credit (rank 3 ->rank 2 ), gunnery comes down to 17

So for the same benefits, you train 17 ranks of gunnery, but only 15.08 ranks of missiles

So.... stop complaining
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#10 - 2013-02-11 14:54:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
I had to combine some things you said, apparently there is a limit on quotes in a post.
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Dude, you fail math

......

TNP basically = motion prediction : they affect the attribute affected by targets speed (complicated a bit by the geometry to determine traversal, but 5x the target speed means 5x target traversal)


I do fail math. But I will point out that you fail game mechanics. Max range for a turret is not Optimal + Falloff, it is Optimal + 2x Falloff. It is still 25% though, and I did note in the OP that the missile skills are quite clearly better here.

TNP being the same as Motion Prediction would only be correct if all targets always had matching current speed and transversal. This is almost never the case. For gunnery direction is important, for missiles it is not.

Verity Sovereign wrote:
Guided missile precision -> has no equal - it affects the weapon attribute that is compared to target sig radius -> I've previously proposed a "precision gunnery" skill to do just this


It is true that there is no equivalent gunnery skill. Perhaps there should be one. However, take a look at the signature sizes for some turrets and missiles. Some of the missiles (specifically the T2 variants) have up to DOUBLE the signature (or explosion radius) meaning that even with the 25% less effect, they still don't hit smaller targets as well as turrets. This is completely ignoring the fact that signature only plays a role against moving targets with gunnery, where missiles have to deal with this no matter how slow the target is.

Even the largest gun in the game will get a perfect hit every time on a stationary frigate and do full damage. Missiles do not do this.

Verity Sovereign wrote:
You should not include the skill guided missile precision, as gunnery support has nothing comparable to it.

And as you know, you also have the advantage of skipping the weapon classes you don't intend to use when training for T2.


Missile supports have nothing to compare to Controlled Bursts. Perhaps we shouldn't include that either?

This isn't about me. I use gunnery MUCH more often than missiles. Although I can use both, I consider missiles to be strictly inferior. I also noted the quoted issues in my original post. It would suck to be a Gallente bomber pilot and have to train rockets, then HAMs and only then be able to train Torpedoes. Are you sure you'd like to do that? Again, no problem for me, I've already trained it all.

Verity Sovereign wrote:
So for the same benefits, you train 17 ranks of gunnery, but only 15.08 ranks of missiles

So.... stop complaining


Your arbitrary numbers of ranks do not convince me. Also, I am not complaining, merely noting differences and questioning whether they need to be there.
Markku Laaksonen
EVE University
Ivy League
#11 - 2013-02-11 15:29:39 UTC
Paikis wrote:
For gunnery direction is important, for missiles it is not.


I understand the explosion velocity vs. target velocity mechanic. If a ship can out run the explosion, it takes less/no damage. Fair enough. That makes sense.

Maybe direction should matter though. It makes sense that a ship can outrun an explosion if it's velocity is greater than the explosion velocity and the ship is going in the same direction as the missile, i.e. the ship is running away from the missile (or the missile is chasing the ship, same thing, point of view.)

What if the target is flying full speed INTO the missile ship? The target might have a higher velocity than the missiles explosion velocity, but the target is flying INTO the subsequent explosion. What if there was some mechanic to account for that? Just at first glance, I don't see how it would effect anything except for cases where a ship is flying into a missile.

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2013-02-11 16:20:40 UTC
Markku Laaksonen wrote:
Paikis wrote:
For gunnery direction is important, for missiles it is not.


I understand the explosion velocity vs. target velocity mechanic. If a ship can out run the explosion, it takes less/no damage. Fair enough. That makes sense.

Maybe direction should matter though. It makes sense that a ship can outrun an explosion if it's velocity is greater than the explosion velocity and the ship is going in the same direction as the missile, i.e. the ship is running away from the missile (or the missile is chasing the ship, same thing, point of view.)

What if the target is flying full speed INTO the missile ship? The target might have a higher velocity than the missiles explosion velocity, but the target is flying INTO the subsequent explosion. What if there was some mechanic to account for that? Just at first glance, I don't see how it would effect anything except for cases where a ship is flying into a missile.

Well, there is the doppler effect, which would increase the DPS received by a target with negative radial velocity (i.e. decreasing range), and decrease it for positive radial velocity.

It's not an explicit game mechanic but it's there nonetheless. Since missile volleys have a finite but fixed velocity and propagate at regular intervals, they can essentially be thought of as the peaks of a wave - thus when the attacker is approaching the target at high velocity the frequency of impacts increases. If I were to fly towards my target at the exact same speed my missiles fly at, I can essentially alpha my target with multiple volleys impacting simultaneously.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2013-02-12 12:21:19 UTC
Paikis wrote:
I had to combine some things you said, apparently there is a limit on quotes in a post.
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Dude, you fail math

......

TNP basically = motion prediction : they affect the attribute affected by targets speed (complicated a bit by the geometry to determine traversal, but 5x the target speed means 5x target traversal)


I do fail math. But I will point out that you fail game mechanics. Max range for a turret is not Optimal + Falloff, it is Optimal + 2x Falloff. It is still 25% though, and I did note in the OP that the missile skills are quite clearly better here.

Optimal + falloff or +2x falloff makes no difference, its still a flat 25% range increase from two skills to lvl 5,
Also, for practical purposes, it is Optimal + falloff, at optimal +2x falloff, you are only doing like 2% of your paper DPS - insignificant

Quote:
TNP being the same as Motion Prediction would only be correct if all targets always had matching current speed and transversal. This is almost never the case. For gunnery direction is important, for missiles it is not.

Yes, this is a fundamental difference, as I already acknowledged, it is a bit more complex, Traversal is a double edged sword... Under some circumstances, the targets speed doesn't matter (heading straight at you, or you are on parallel courses at similar speed), but on the other hand, when they get in close, the guns are screwed.

What *is* the same, is that the skills reduce the effect of the targets speed - as I already noted.
If you double your targets speed, you double your targets traversal (actually, its worse than that if you are moving too, trying to mitigate traversal.

So, I stand by my statement that they are equivalent.

Quote:
It is true that there is no equivalent gunnery skill. Perhaps there should be one. However, take a look at the signature sizes for some turrets and missiles. Some of the missiles (specifically the T2 variants) have up to DOUBLE the signature (or explosion radius) meaning that even with the 25% less effect, they still don't hit smaller targets as well as turrets. This is completely ignoring the fact that signature only plays a role against moving targets with gunnery, where missiles have to deal with this no matter how slow the target is.

Another gameplay fail, signature radius matters no matter the target speed. Also, compare a cruise missile to any large gun, the sig radius advantage is firmly in the missile's favor, its only torps that had a problem... and now that GMP affects those too, as well, on top of that you have rigs that can reduce this - while again, guns have no such rigs and adding more tracking to compensate runs into stacking penalties

Quote:
Your arbitrary numbers of ranks do not convince me. Also, I am not complaining, merely noting differences and questioning whether they need to be there.
[/quote]
Its not arbitrary, its a measure of training time to get the equivalent benefit... which addresses your questions about whether the ranks need to be there.
Missile bombardment and projection give way better bonuses than the gunnery skills, for the same training time...

The biggest problem that missiles have is travel time, making them ill suited for long range fleet engagements.

No amount of playing with the ranks of the missile skills is going to change that.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#14 - 2013-02-12 17:58:50 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Another gameplay fail, signature radius matters no matter the target speed.


Awesome, you get to learn something!

Here is the tracking formula used by EVE.

Now note that anything multiplied by zero is zero, and zero divided by anything is also zero. Zero squared is also zero. Knowing that, if you target has 0 Transversal (i.e you are both stationary) then the tracking formular can be simplified to:

Chance to hit= 0.5^((max(0, (RangeToTarget-TurretOptimalRange))/TurretFalloff)^2

At which point, as long as you are in range you will receive perfect hits on your target.

You can plug the formula into excel and mess with numbers if you like, but the minute you set transversal to 0, your hit chance becomes 1 (i.e 100%) and no amount of messing with the other numbers will change this. The linked page also shows how you will hit for wrecking damage every time with a hit chance of 1.
Raavanan
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2013-02-16 00:30:44 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Another gameplay fail, signature radius matters no matter the target speed.


Awesome, you get to learn something!

Here is the tracking formula used by EVE.

Now note that anything multiplied by zero is zero, and zero divided by anything is also zero. Zero squared is also zero. Knowing that, if you target has 0 Transversal (i.e you are both stationary) then the tracking formular can be simplified to:

Chance to hit= 0.5^((max(0, (RangeToTarget-TurretOptimalRange))/TurretFalloff)^2

At which point, as long as you are in range you will receive perfect hits on your target.

You can plug the formula into excel and mess with numbers if you like, but the minute you set transversal to 0, your hit chance becomes 1 (i.e 100%) and no amount of messing with the other numbers will change this. The linked page also shows how you will hit for wrecking damage every time with a hit chance of 1.


Now correct me if i am wrong here, but you are talking about the chance of hit, whereas he is talking about the applied damage. Now with 0 transversal and range, all hits will land as u say but the damage taken still depends on sig rad.

The problem is, missiles land a hit for some damage no matter what the transversal is. Turrets don't do that. so when it comes to applied damage, turrets are better if they can catch targets at 0 trans.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-02-17 14:36:29 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Another gameplay fail, signature radius matters no matter the target speed.


Awesome, you get to learn something!

Here is the tracking formula used by EVE.

Now note that anything multiplied by zero is zero, and zero divided by anything is also zero. Zero squared is also zero. Knowing that, if you target has 0 Transversal (i.e you are both stationary) then the tracking formular can be simplified to:

Chance to hit= 0.5^((max(0, (RangeToTarget-TurretOptimalRange))/TurretFalloff)^2

At which point, as long as you are in range you will receive perfect hits on your target.

You can plug the formula into excel and mess with numbers if you like, but the minute you set transversal to 0, your hit chance becomes 1 (i.e 100%) and no amount of messing with the other numbers will change this. The linked page also shows how you will hit for wrecking damage every time with a hit chance of 1.


It's not that simple.

You can test that with Dramiel and Tachs/1400s.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#17 - 2013-02-17 14:50:51 UTC
No it really is that simple. How many frigates have been one-shot by hitting approach and getting alpha'd by large guns that wouldn't normally be able to hit them?
Roime
Shiva Furnace
#18 - 2013-02-17 15:07:26 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Another gameplay fail, signature radius matters no matter the target speed.


Awesome, you get to learn something!

Here is the tracking formula used by EVE.

Now note that anything multiplied by zero is zero, and zero divided by anything is also zero. Zero squared is also zero. Knowing that, if you target has 0 Transversal (i.e you are both stationary) then the tracking formular can be simplified to:

Chance to hit= 0.5^((max(0, (RangeToTarget-TurretOptimalRange))/TurretFalloff)^2

At which point, as long as you are in range you will receive perfect hits on your target.

You can plug the formula into excel and mess with numbers if you like, but the minute you set transversal to 0, your hit chance becomes 1 (i.e 100%) and no amount of messing with the other numbers will change this. The linked page also shows how you will hit for wrecking damage every time with a hit chance of 1.


lol
Quote:

If X > 0.01 the Quality Of Hit multiplier = X + 0.5


You won't ever hit for wrecking damage every time. Unlike missiles, if the target is stationary and big enough, you do max damage on every missile volley- with turrets, never. Turret applied damage is always defined by a random modifier, you can test this yourself by shooting a structure at your optimal, your volley damage has a huge variation purely because of this X-component.

What you are basically saying is that the only condition when turrets can't miss is when you and your target are both stationary, and missiles hit every time.

.

Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#19 - 2013-02-17 15:30:24 UTC
Roime wrote:
Quote:
If X > 0.01 the Quality Of Hit multiplier = X + 0.5


You won't ever hit for wrecking damage every time. Unlike missiles, if the target is stationary and big enough, you do max damage on every missile volley- with turrets, never. Turret applied damage is always defined by a random modifier, you can test this yourself by shooting a structure at your optimal, your volley damage has a huge variation purely because of this X-component.


You are correct. I mis-read that. OK, so wrecking hits are only 1% of all shots, but they are 1% of all shots, so if you only have 1% chance to hit something, all your hits will be wrecking (but you'll miss a lot). So a wrecking shot hit multiplier is 3x, and for everything else, it is X+0.5, where X is a random number between 0.01 and 1. If we average this out, we get

Avg Hit Modifier = X + 0.5
X = (0.01+1)/2 = 0.505
Avg Hit Multplier = 0.505 + 0.5 = 1.05

So now we have a 1% chance to get a hit modifier of 3.0x and a 99% chance to get an average hit modifier of 1.05x. Which gives us a weighted damage multiplier of: 1.0695 or 6.95% more than your gun's damage.

Roime wrote:
What you are basically saying is that the only condition when turrets can't miss is when you and your target are both stationary, and missiles hit every time.


That is not what I said at all, and is factually incorrect.

Your target can be moving at a million times light speed and you will still have 100% hit chance with guns if he is moving directly at you (and assuming you time the shot right and he's in range). Actual speed is irrelevant for the hit formula for guns.

For missiles, they can be outrun, they can be blown up, or you can just go fast enough or have a sig radius small enough that the damage is small enough to not matter. Sure, you're going to hit most times, but when your missiles are hitting for 3 damage each, who cares?
Roime
Shiva Furnace
#20 - 2013-02-17 15:56:45 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Roime wrote:
Quote:
If X > 0.01 the Quality Of Hit multiplier = X + 0.5


You won't ever hit for wrecking damage every time. Unlike missiles, if the target is stationary and big enough, you do max damage on every missile volley- with turrets, never. Turret applied damage is always defined by a random modifier, you can test this yourself by shooting a structure at your optimal, your volley damage has a huge variation purely because of this X-component.


You are correct. I mis-read that. OK, so wrecking hits are only 1% of all shots, but they are 1% of all shots, so if you only have 1% chance to hit something, all your hits will be wrecking (but you'll miss a lot). So a wrecking shot hit multiplier is 3x, and for everything else, it is X+0.5, where X is a random number between 0.01 and 1. If we average this out, we get

Avg Hit Modifier = X + 0.5
X = (0.01+1)/2 = 0.505
Avg Hit Multplier = 0.505 + 0.5 = 1.05

So now we have a 1% chance to get a hit modifier of 3.0x and a 99% chance to get an average hit modifier of 1.05x. Which gives us a weighted damage multiplier of: 1.0695 or 6.95% more than your gun's damage.


No. X is a random number between 0 and 1.

Roime wrote:
What you are basically saying is that the only condition when turrets can't miss is when you and your target are both stationary, and missiles hit every time.


That is not what I said at all, and is factually incorrect.

Your target can be moving at a million times light speed and you will still have 100% hit chance with guns if he is moving directly at you (and assuming you time the shot right and he's in range). Actual speed is irrelevant for the hit formula for guns.

For missiles, they can be outrun, they can be blown up, or you can just go fast enough or have a sig radius small enough that the damage is small enough to not matter. Sure, you're going to hit most times, but when your missiles are hitting for 3 damage each, who cares?[/quote]

Ok yes, if transversal speed is exactly 0, yes, you have a 100% chance to hit if the target is in your optimal. How often this actually happens on TQ is debatable. If transversal is 0.000001, the sig part of the formula kicks in.

Salvos can't be blown up, but all the other things you mention about avoiding missile damage apply just the same for turrets.

.

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