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Abandoning swarm of drones at gate-official statement?
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Mag's
Azn Empire
#21 - 2013-02-15 18:37:19 UTC
Shamus O'Reilly wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Last I heard was if it caused lag, then it was an exploit. But it really depends upon the GM you get and how many drones there are.

There doesn't seem to be a fixed rule about this. AFAIK

Last i heard if it force decloaks you upon entry and is NOT a piloted ship it is considered exploit. This involves canspams and the such. Doesnt matter to me though. If it is pew it is pew to me Smile
That may be true, although I have to say it's the first I've heard of it.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#22 - 2013-02-15 21:11:39 UTC
http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1555366&page=1#4

GM Hormonia wrote:
Normally I would direct anyone with specific question to our petition system. However, we get this question a lot and a large part of our players seem to think that this is an exploit; thus let me answer this question as clear as possible:

No, this is not an exploit and is fully allowed.

Using debris to decloak ships is a perfectly valid strategy. You can use cans, drones, and any other object that decloaks a ship. This is simply a clever use of normal game mechanics.

The Exception: The only thing you may not do is deploy so much debris that it causes lag.

How much debris will cause lag? Well, there is no hard answer for that as this is highly dependent on too many factors to formulate a definition that can always be applied. Common sense will need to be applied (and GMs have certain protocols to use to determine if it causes lag or not, to make sure that all GMs use the same benchmark).



I'm just going to leave this here...

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#23 - 2013-02-15 22:37:50 UTC
I'm going to post below Ruby because I read the damned thread and it is my right to post. But really there's nothing more to say. Except Mags was right and a few other people were wrong, I guess that can be added.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-02-15 22:39:36 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1555366&page=1#4

GM Hormonia wrote:
Normally I would direct anyone with specific question to our petition system. However, we get this question a lot and a large part of our players seem to think that this is an exploit; thus let me answer this question as clear as possible:

No, this is not an exploit and is fully allowed.

Using debris to decloak ships is a perfectly valid strategy. You can use cans, drones, and any other object that decloaks a ship. This is simply a clever use of normal game mechanics.

The Exception: The only thing you may not do is deploy so much debris that it causes lag.

How much debris will cause lag? Well, there is no hard answer for that as this is highly dependent on too many factors to formulate a definition that can always be applied. Common sense will need to be applied (and GMs have certain protocols to use to determine if it causes lag or not, to make sure that all GMs use the same benchmark).



I'm just going to leave this here...



Short answer: depends on who answers your petition and his mood.

Quite Eve'ish to me.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Generals4
#25 - 2013-02-15 22:43:44 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1555366&page=1#4

GM Hormonia wrote:
Normally I would direct anyone with specific question to our petition system. However, we get this question a lot and a large part of our players seem to think that this is an exploit; thus let me answer this question as clear as possible:

No, this is not an exploit and is fully allowed.

Using debris to decloak ships is a perfectly valid strategy. You can use cans, drones, and any other object that decloaks a ship. This is simply a clever use of normal game mechanics.

The Exception: The only thing you may not do is deploy so much debris that it causes lag.

How much debris will cause lag? Well, there is no hard answer for that as this is highly dependent on too many factors to formulate a definition that can always be applied. Common sense will need to be applied (and GMs have certain protocols to use to determine if it causes lag or not, to make sure that all GMs use the same benchmark).



I'm just going to leave this here...


Why they didn't share that "benchmark" with the community is beyond me. They are litterally saying something is ok up to a certain point without defining that point.

_-Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. _
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#26 - 2013-02-15 22:57:10 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1555366&page=1#4

GM Hormonia wrote:
Normally I would direct anyone with specific question to our petition system. However, we get this question a lot and a large part of our players seem to think that this is an exploit; thus let me answer this question as clear as possible:

No, this is not an exploit and is fully allowed.

Using debris to decloak ships is a perfectly valid strategy. You can use cans, drones, and any other object that decloaks a ship. This is simply a clever use of normal game mechanics.

The Exception: The only thing you may not do is deploy so much debris that it causes lag.

How much debris will cause lag? Well, there is no hard answer for that as this is highly dependent on too many factors to formulate a definition that can always be applied. Common sense will need to be applied (and GMs have certain protocols to use to determine if it causes lag or not, to make sure that all GMs use the same benchmark).



I'm just going to leave this here...


Yeah, it's a little tricky.

I'll tell you the rule of thumb I always use, and seems to work, but it is highly subjective on my part.

Generally it seems if no more than 5 drones per ship present (in the camp) are set adrift (or cans, whatever) you are okay. But if you go much beyond that number it becomes increasingly more likely that you can get nailed for it.

So 10 ships present "might" get away with 50 drones etc. abandoned around the gate... but anything beyond that is getting pretty iffy.

I have litlte doubt there are wildly varying exceptions to this though. Smile

Thanks for that quote.

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Zakarumit CZ
Zakarum Industries
Forgers United
#27 - 2013-02-15 23:36:33 UTC
Thanks for all good answers, I hoped there might be something saying what causes lag and what not but seems like it really depends on GM and situation.
In my situation it was roughly 100-200 abandoned drones and it caused grid to load after jump obivously slower-about 2-3s compared to not-drone-spammed gate.

Anyway, my opinion is decloak should be performed by 'more human interaction' than jettisoning load of garbage around. We have interceptors, we can assign drones, we have MWDs and so, right?

Also I am kinda said for people that are obviously trolling or they did not even read my OP, which is clearly saying I did not loose anything to this and I am not whining. I was just curious.
Dark Drifter
Sons of Seyllin
Sedition.
#28 - 2013-02-16 00:54:37 UTC
IT IS AN EXPLOIT.

CCP did state that intentionally abandoning assets on any grid with the intention of causing LAG (in this case grid load lag, to get easy kills)

so following instances are considered exploits:
-abandoning drones rookie ships on gates.
-jettisoning excess shuttles on stations (and grid) "for edd"
-to many cans in belts

having 100 bubbles on a gate in null sec is however not an exploit
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#29 - 2013-02-16 01:58:14 UTC
Dark Drifter wrote:
IT IS AN EXPLOIT.

CCP did state that intentionally abandoning assets on any grid with the intention of causing LAG (in this case grid load lag, to get easy kills)

so following instances are considered exploits:
-abandoning drones rookie ships on gates.
-jettisoning excess shuttles on stations (and grid) "for edd"
-to many cans in belts

having 100 bubbles on a gate in null sec is however not an exploit


Its only a problem if there is lag, the DM's have some mysterious lagometer that they all use. And every node is a bit different. By their definition the number of drones or crap is not the issue, its the lag caused that makes something problematic. So dump drones until it gets laggy, then blast a few of them.
Zaraz Zaraz
Zontik Paraphernalia Inc
#30 - 2013-02-16 03:52:08 UTC
I'm confused, an exploit isn't the same as an achievement?
Revman Zim
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#31 - 2013-02-16 04:08:34 UTC
Show me on the doll where they touched you....
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#32 - 2013-02-16 04:43:30 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
RubyPorto wrote:
http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1555366&page=1#4

GM Hormonia wrote:
Normally I would direct anyone with specific question to our petition system. However, we get this question a lot and a large part of our players seem to think that this is an exploit; thus let me answer this question as clear as possible:

No, this is not an exploit and is fully allowed.

Using debris to decloak ships is a perfectly valid strategy. You can use cans, drones, and any other object that decloaks a ship. This is simply a clever use of normal game mechanics.

The Exception: The only thing you may not do is deploy so much debris that it causes lag.

How much debris will cause lag? Well, there is no hard answer for that as this is highly dependent on too many factors to formulate a definition that can always be applied. Common sense will need to be applied (and GMs have certain protocols to use to determine if it causes lag or not, to make sure that all GMs use the same benchmark).



I'm just going to leave this here...



lol common sense applied in NULL? ( for that matter anywhere in Eve? )
Don't worry I'm sure the logs show lag Roll
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Joran Dravius
Doomheim
#33 - 2013-02-16 08:17:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Joran Dravius
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
Whether it is or isn't an exploit doesn't really matter, just comes down to who answers the petition as there doesn't seem to be a consensus.

If someone you don't like does it: Report it and hope whoever answers the petition sides with you.

If you want to do it: Go for it and hope that whoever answers the petition sides with you.

And the devs would rather reply to a thread about doing the "Harlem shake", whatever that is. They really need to make up their minds about the rules and enforce them consistently.
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#34 - 2013-02-16 08:40:37 UTC
You leave gates cloaked for a reason. In that you have to load a whole sector while the people who wait at the gates only have to load your ship before they're ready to go. Which means people will be destroyed before they're even done loading the area and have no chance to react. Anything that automatically disrupts this cloak without any real effort from the attacker should be considered an exploit.

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-02-16 09:32:52 UTC
I've seen confirmation from devs recently, that make a dirty gate (surrounding it with drones, corpses, jetcans, whatever) is ALLOWED, so long as it is not significantly impacting server performance. If it is causing much lag, then it's an exploit.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-02-16 09:39:01 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Don't worry I'm sure the logs show lag Roll

well, that's the thing. the logs show nothing because they lagged out.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-02-16 12:23:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
What about guys abandoning shuttles or rookie ships right at the undock?

Exploit or not exploit? (this tactic makes your ship change direction and become ok for target/volley/reducing undock immunity timer)

Lol

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#38 - 2013-02-16 12:28:00 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
What about guys abandoning shuttles or rookie ships right at the undock?

Exploit or not exploit? (this tactic makes your ship change direction and become ok for target/volley reducing undock immunity timer)

Lol

You do not interact with other ships when you undock until you issue a command, voiding your undocking protection.

So this tactic is pretty futile. Just drift off until you have no ship in the way and then warp to your instant bookmark. With a good instant, you can even get a freighter out of a busy station. You warp before you even start bumping.

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New Mining Mechanics
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#39 - 2013-02-16 19:30:21 UTC
Generals4 wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1555366&page=1#4

GM Hormonia wrote:
Normally I would direct anyone with specific question to our petition system. However, we get this question a lot and a large part of our players seem to think that this is an exploit; thus let me answer this question as clear as possible:

No, this is not an exploit and is fully allowed.

Using debris to decloak ships is a perfectly valid strategy. You can use cans, drones, and any other object that decloaks a ship. This is simply a clever use of normal game mechanics.

The Exception: The only thing you may not do is deploy so much debris that it causes lag.

How much debris will cause lag? Well, there is no hard answer for that as this is highly dependent on too many factors to formulate a definition that can always be applied. Common sense will need to be applied (and GMs have certain protocols to use to determine if it causes lag or not, to make sure that all GMs use the same benchmark).



I'm just going to leave this here...


Why they didn't share that "benchmark" with the community is beyond me. They are litterally saying something is ok up to a certain point without defining that point.


Reading Hormonia's other posts in that thread will let you see where she defines the lag she is talking about and explains how the GMs test for lag, which indicates a simple way to test if your camp is causing lag.

The GMs jump into your camp on their GM computers. If they experience client lag, there are too many cans.
Your test would be: jump into your camp. If you experience client lag, there are probably too many cans.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Bubanni
Game of Drones
The Initiative.
#40 - 2013-02-16 20:09:15 UTC
The GMs we encountered only mentioned server lag.... not client lag. We tried testing or spotting this lag with 200 drones... but it was impossible, as 200 drones have only a very small and unnoticeable effect... why the drones you ask? It's not to create lag, It's to catch covert nulified fast warping t3 ships... that are basicly impossible to catch because of the way server ticks work... it is possible to make these warp within 2-4 sec... I often manage to decloak them just as they enter warp, or often pass right through them at 500m

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