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CLOAKI alts hordes in fw plex

Author
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#81 - 2013-02-14 15:26:26 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Cearain wrote:
"chatgris" wrote:
EDIT: Oh, I see why you're still complaining - even though you have more systems, you're getting spanked in kills.

Yesterday: 270/460
Last week: 2125/3340

Carry on the complaining then :)



More proof that pvp has nothing to do with winning the sov war.


If you didn't have logic behind your posts, well, I'd ignore them :). My points are that the current system is the best so far.

Apart from a brief time when QCATS were in the Minmatar militia and our kills weren't counting, Gallente has been out killing the caldari for pretty much all of FW, even back in 2009. This shows in the all time kills for our militas.

Basically - Gallente outkilling the Caldari has pretty much been a constant throughout all iterations of FW.



You guys are almost getting to be as good as amarr. Keep at it, and maybe someday.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#82 - 2013-02-14 15:29:07 UTC
Dread Operative wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Dread Operative wrote:

Facts are realitve. More plexs have been completed because more people defensive plex, as you keep saying there are more people in faction war now, more plexs are required to capture systems, players don't normally defend backwater system, etc. Etc. Plus you never answered if plexs complete was a total of all plexs or just offensive plexs. You are reading the facts the way you want to, I already have to deal with that with liberals and gun control, so I decided to ignore you. Your system will never happen. Notifications are shat, will over tax the system, timer roll back would be enough.



Defensive or offensive plexes doesn't change anything.

4xs as many plexes captured per kill. Defenisve or offensive both give vp and both help sov warfare.

Oh and I like the way you try to throw in yet another bad argument that nerfing the farmville will "over tax the system." You no doubt have no clue what you are talking about yet still continue to argue against measures that will end farmville. Well like was said earlier in this thread you got what you wish for.


Doesn't change anything to you, this is why I choose to stop discussing this with, you are right and everyone else is wrong in you mind. I personally don't need or want farmsville, I make billions a month in investments. Notifications are the lazy way and will eliminate any the of solo PVP we enjoy in plexs today. Hookbill pops minor, every enemy frig in range will burn to system, sounds like fun.....

Skimming your eye bleeding wall of text you asked about timer roll backs, I personally think that is a great idea, as well as many others. I am against notifications and that's it.



What difference does defensive or offensive plexing make to you?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#83 - 2013-02-14 16:57:47 UTC
chatgris wrote:
They affected aggregate occupancy (which meant even less back in the day) but once whoever controlled the after DT timezone decided that they were going to plex that system, there as absolutely nothing you do to in the other timezones to affect that due to the plexes getting stuck on respawn - and most US guys just gave up on occupancy warfare..



The downtime spawn advantage was changed before inferno. We both agree this was a good change.

However, even before this change I rarely had a problem finding a plex in most systems. You keep talking about targeted systems, or systems "that matter." None of them mattered in 2009 and now I have a hunch you are talking about roughly 10% of the total systems "that matter." 90% do not.

Moreover due to station lockouts the systems that matter to each of the different factions are different systems. Amarr doesn't care about huola anymore because no one has stuff there anymore. The only advantage would be to cause some inconvenience to the minmatar. But thats about it.

But even if I fully concede that if the system matters for one side, then it must matter for the other, then we are still talking about 10% of the total systems. 90% of the systems don't matter and are farmville.

We got a slight boost in numbers due to the tremendous isk you can make from faction war. But really that only lead to having base systems in about 5% of systems to about 10% of systems. That five percent increase is not nearly enough to patrol all the systems without some added intel tools.

chatgris wrote:
Yes, they were stuck at tier 1 in the long run. FW was on the cusp of having the winning side have dread alts in the opposing militia's to bust their own vulnerable bunkers. I know my corp was close to having 3-4 dread alts we could bust bunkers with in the Caldari militia. I know the minnies were doing the same. It was total crap.



The main problem was that there was fantastic amounts of isk to be farmed. The lp still had decent value 5-8k per lp so getting 1 billion isk per hour per alt was not hard. Now that the lp is depressed in value, you are required to kill the rats, and the payouts are generally nerfed, the farming is not as bad. But this was not a result of the actual cashout tier structure versus the current one. They could have nerfed the payouts and required rats to be shot with the cashout system as well.

Amarr could get several systems vulnerable but by the time they flipped on the minmifarm would flip it back in the absolute minimum amount of time. Look at how fast metro got plexed back after we hit tier 4. It was less than a half hour that we could stay at tier 4. Thats how fast the lp was getting depleted. CCP could have taken sensible measures such as requiring the rats to be killed and nerfing the rewards a bit, and that likely would have solved the problem. They did end up taking these measures but they also threw out the superior cashout system.

There was allot of talk and handwaving about how everyone was going to start flipping their own systems. But I think the minmatar only did this once or twice. That ended up backfiring and helping make the amarrs task easier because that system was still amarr when we did the tier 4 cashout. So it appears that strategy would be a bad one. The way some minmatar whined about their inability to farm their own systems you would think they were flipping their own systems everyday. But in fact it was not case. Minmatar still got their wish though. And now we have lp for defensive plexing, and a stagnant war.

Some advantages to the cashout system:

1) It actually involved some thought and strategy. I mean we actually had decent threads and discussions about whether flipping your own system was good or bad. Factions had real options and theories about how they should go about fighting the war. There were different phases to the war and preparing a tier 5 cashout. Now we just have joke threads about strategy, because there is none. The new non-cashout fw is dumbed down so as to require not even a scintilla of strategic thought.

2) It didn't encourage people to join the winning side. It encouraged new players to join the side currently at the lower tier.

3) It was dynamic system that people took notice of, and effected the community. There were numerous threads and blogs about the system and what strategies would work or what wouldn't. Now no one really cares. For amarr probably about 1/3 didn't like the tier 4 cashout 1/3 were very happy and 1/3 didnt' care. Now for the most part 90% don't really care. They will just switch their alts if someone else starts winning. Now I am sure there was some rejoicing from amarr to take more systems than the minmatar had. But over time this will just fade away and sov war will just be an endless grind.


Yes it may have needed some tweaks beyond the measures already taken to mitigate farming. Like I said a slight nerf to tier 5 income, must kill all rats, a form of timer rollback, and notifications and the system would have likely worked well. If a miltiia was still unable to hit tier five then depending on what phase was giving them trouble ccp could have easilly tweaked the system.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#84 - 2013-02-14 17:15:48 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Cearain wrote:


Again I will ask you, and the rest of the cheerleaders. If ccp does a timer rollback will you expect to see the number of kills per plex rise? I do.



Yes, I expect it to. But that is one controlled variable within the system. Trying to compare the current system to the old one with all of its flaws where plexes didn't exist/had less draw to run meant more people just fought away from plexes and ignored them altogether. My argument is your "kills per plex" metric is comparing apples to oranges from 2009 to now, and that otherwise pvp is up.

Cearain wrote:

chatgris wrote:

There are tweaks that could be made, but I disagree on a lot of your suggestions (for example, notifications mean you aren't supplying your own intel. If you don't live in a system, I feel that you have no right to say you own it. If you do think you own it, patrol it)..


Another defense of farming. No one "patrols" all of fw space. That is why it is hide and plex Farmville. You know its true. That is why a notification would nerf Farmville, and we would see more kills per plex.


You could patrol all of FW space if people lived there, or enough people join FW like nulli. And the reverse - if one side is totally outnumbered, at least they can slink off, run a plex, and maybe kill scouts if people have to gather their own intel. Having risk free intel means a blob can just chase plexers around all day.


Like I said we went from probably 5% of systems having bases before inferno to about 10% after the huge lp rewards. Its not really cutting it. 90% farmville is still broken.

Scouting low sec is not a risky job. Its just very tedious and requires you to ruin any scrap of immersion you might have by using alts.

ON blobbing:
Its not like the fc of a large fleet is goign to be like "hey I see someone opened a small plex in dal lets all get there top speed." It will be the opposite. The militia coodination will involve trying to make sure at least someone is covering the plexes that are under attack and splitting people up as per their ability, location, and ship type, to accomplish that goal. Yeah I know, thought about assigning resources seems so foreign to eve were the best strategy is always "get in the blob get in the blob"

On the other hand if a blob comes into a system and they know forcing the enemy to warp will cause a timer roll back they probably will chase people out of the plexes and just keep moving along causing solo and small gang pvpers to lose time on their plexes. End result may be solo and small gang pvpers are less likely to plex. This is one reason why I think the timer should only roll back if an enemy or neutral is on grid with your or with the accell gate. If you see a huge blob jump in local you should be able to warp out and not lose your time on the plex.

In any event the notification sytem is the better solution. The rollbacks should be used if the notification doesn't do the trick then consider some form of rollbacks.



Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Shadow Adanza
Gold Crest Salvage
#85 - 2013-02-15 06:13:59 UTC
I rather enjoy the cloakies that come plex our systems.

To me it's a test of patience and resolve to try to kill them. You have to out think your opponent for the kill while he's trying to out think you for the LP. A giant chessboard covering the system where one wrong move is check mate, whether it's your opponent slipping away or his ship exploding.

Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

JAF Anders
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2013-02-15 06:21:43 UTC  |  Edited by: JAF Anders
Personally, I like cloaked ships in plexes.

The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.

Super Chair
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#87 - 2013-02-15 06:32:19 UTC
Personally I love to go to nenna with a tanky tackle frigate and cloak up t1 cruisers next to it. When a gallente caracal navy issue goes for the "good fight" against a solo frigate, hilarity ensues.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#88 - 2013-02-15 11:40:05 UTC
chatgris wrote:



So, uh, let me get this straight.

I thought you were saying Gallente was full of stabbed farmers, hence this patch would be a net benefit to the Caldari?

Or is it that Caldari is full of stabbed farmers, and this patch is going to be a net benefit to the Gallente?

Or maybe CCP really doesn't take sides, and reducing the influence of farmers is good for everyone?


No, I'm saying that "we told you so". When they were on your side you guys were more than happy to have the advantage of having tons of worthless ISK farmers doing the grunt work for you.

We warned that it was a broken system and you should also speak out that it is broken because one day the system might turn against you. Seems that one day didn't take so long to come along, and here we have some of the very Gals that laughed when the Farmers were on their said saying "working as intended" are now crying.

As I said. I told you so.. Roll
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#89 - 2013-02-15 11:40:31 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
chatgris wrote:



So, uh, let me get this straight.

I thought you were saying Gallente was full of stabbed farmers, hence this patch would be a net benefit to the Caldari?

Or is it that Caldari is full of stabbed farmers, and this patch is going to be a net benefit to the Gallente?

Or maybe CCP really doesn't take sides, and reducing the influence of farmers is good for everyone?





No, I'm saying that "we told you so". When they were on your side you guys were more than happy to have the advantage of having tons of worthless ISK farmers doing the grunt work for you.

We warned that it was a broken system and you should also speak out that it is broken because one day the system might turn against you. Seems that one day didn't take so long to come along, and here we have some of the very Gals that laughed when the Farmers were on their said saying "working as intended" are now crying about hoards of ISK farmers with cloaks & stabs.

As I said. I told you so.. Roll
Garan Nardieu
Super Serious Fight Club
#90 - 2013-02-15 12:47:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Garan Nardieu
Mutnin wrote:

No, I'm saying that "we told you so". When they were on your side you guys were more than happy to have the advantage of having tons of worthless ISK farmers doing the grunt work for you.

We warned that it was a broken system and you should also speak out that it is broken because one day the system might turn against you. Seems that one day didn't take so long to come along, and here we have some of the very Gals that laughed when the Farmers were on their said saying "working as intended" are now crying about hoards of ISK farmers with cloaks & stabs.

As I said. I told you so.. Roll



You know what you all (squiddie whiners) seem to forget? You seem to forget how the warzone takeover actually begun, so let me remind you by putting this quote here (OP in FW christmas gift thread) "Seems there is a general consensus on these forums that FW is broken again. The factions that are on a downward spiral can’t recover, the farming is going rampant and generally everything is broken, imbalanced or biased... ".

So, while history has proven him wrong about factions not being able to recover, the rest is correct - there is (and always was) a consensus about it, it's just that you lot where too busy whining all this time to even consider agreeing with him.
I'm pretty sure CCP realises that current FW mechanics (again) favour farmers and that they are working on fixing that, not for the sake of Gal or Cal or MyA** mil, but for the sake of game. Furthermore - while you can have majority of warzone control due to PvE farming, total control is a PvP endeavour and noone in their sane mind can deny that. So instead of whining, why not give credit where it's due (GalMil taking the whole warzone) and start making constructive suggestions about FW mechanics through dialogue with all factions involved (yes, dialogue with Gals too) and maybe we can get a system everyone would actually enjoy participating in.
You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one...
Dread Operative
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#91 - 2013-02-15 17:36:14 UTC
I keep hearing about all these GalMil tears, but I don't really see them. Most posts are responses to something a squid has said. The only "tears" I've seen is about cloaks being used in plexs, which let's be honest, is lame either way. Can someone post these "tears" cause my reading skills must be lacking. Mostly I see DnD and Qcats saying gj and gf's to be had in the future, and then being accused of lies and propaganda.
Abannan
Pew Pew Pirates
Villore Accords
#92 - 2013-02-15 17:37:56 UTC
Hows plexing those vulnerable systems working out?
Dread Operative
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#93 - 2013-02-15 17:42:03 UTC
Abannan wrote:
Hows plexing those vulnerable systems working out?


Who's that directed to?
Princess Nexxala
Quantum Cats Syndicate
#94 - 2013-02-15 17:58:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Princess Nexxala
Pretty sure there is only 1 gal mil complaining in this thread.

I, for one, embrace the farming cloaking/stabbing hoard. They are easy to kill and rage in local when you won't them farm. They are easily countered by simple tactics and once discouraged via multiple losses and poddings, tend to stay away from whatever system(s) you are actively protecting.

Working as intended

Mutnin wrote:


We warned that it was a broken system and you should also speak out that it is broken because one day the system might turn against you. Seems that one day didn't take so long to come along, and here we have some of the very Gals that laughed when the Farmers were on their said saying "working as intended" are now crying about hoards of ISK farmers with cloaks & stabs.

As I said. I told you so.. Roll

nom nom

Shadow Adanza
Gold Crest Salvage
#95 - 2013-02-15 18:24:55 UTC
Mutnin wrote:


No, I'm saying that "we told you so". When they were on your side you guys were more than happy to have the advantage of having tons of worthless ISK farmers doing the grunt work for you.

We warned that it was a broken system and you should also speak out that it is broken because one day the system might turn against you. Seems that one day didn't take so long to come along, and here we have some of the very Gals that laughed when the Farmers were on their said saying "working as intended" are now crying.

As I said. I told you so.. Roll

The farmers are fun.
Run the plex while they're cloaked up in it, it's hilarious. They eventually get mad and will say something in local/uncloak and -try- to warp off.
They get to the point where when they even see your name in local they'll try to leave system.

Lossmails are a better deterrent than anything CCP could introduce.

Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#96 - 2013-02-15 18:47:22 UTC
Currently several Gallente militia corps are on pace for a record numbers of kills for this month even though it is only 28 days long. Working as intended.

We've always said the rats are too easy and invite too much farming, but unfortunately there is a certain moron (not even in FW anymore, like all the other morons who post stupid suggestions for FW) on the forums who posts about some idiotic "notification system" and "no rats in plexes" that CCP has listened to. But in any case, we got booted from Heyd, but fights/ganks/kills/whatever are up - and we're all having a blast.

Bottom line is that (certain) Squids should just STFU and take all our systems like we did to them.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#97 - 2013-02-15 18:48:37 UTC
Dread Operative wrote:
Abannan wrote:
Hows plexing those vulnerable systems working out?


Who's that directed to?

Squid farmer alts.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#98 - 2013-02-15 21:30:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
X Gallentius wrote:
Currently several Gallente militia corps are on pace for a record numbers of kills for this month even though it is only 28 days long. Working as intended.

We've always said the rats are too easy and invite too much farming, but unfortunately there is a certain moron (not even in FW anymore, like all the other morons who post stupid suggestions for FW) on the forums who posts about some idiotic "notification system" and "no rats in plexes" that CCP has listened to. But in any case, we got booted from Heyd, but fights/ganks/kills/whatever are up - and we're all having a blast.

Bottom line is that (certain) Squids should just STFU and take all our systems like we did to them.



You must be a upset to be calling chatgris, and several other of your fellow gallente who welcomed the changes to npcs morons. BTW Chatgris is still in fw.

Also npcs don't really prevent people from fitting cloaks or stabs. Instead of having ccp prevent people from running your plexes (through their npcs) you could have the players do it. And yes a notification system would haelp players do that so we don't have to rely on npcs.

If you are really so upset, that you are calling just about everyone in your militia a moron, about your inability to shoot red crosses maybe try wormholes, or high sec missions, or fw missions, or belt ratting, or incursions, or anomalys or epic arcs or cosmos missions. But leave fw plexing as a single mechanic that allows pvp.

Any of the above activities is better than your criticizing the most intelliegent move ccp did with respect to fw.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#99 - 2013-02-15 22:05:14 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Also npcs don't really prevent people from fitting cloaks or stabs.
Really? Would you say that anybody being targeted by a rat can't cloak? And that anybody who wants to kill a rat can't do it while cloaked?

Quote:
If you are really so upset,
Not really upset. Lots of fights and kills. More than ever before. /me happy.

Quote:

that you are calling just about everyone in your militia a moron, about your inability to shoot red crosses maybe try wormholes, or high sec missions, or fw missions, or belt ratting, or incursions, or anomalys or epic arcs or cosmos missions. But leave fw plexing as a single mechanic that allows pvp.

Any of the above activities is better than your criticizing the most intelliegent move ccp did with respect to fw.

Nah, I'm just calling you a moron. I think everybody else understands that a notification system won't do squat, and that inappropriately sized rats invite massive levels of farming.





Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#100 - 2013-02-15 22:20:36 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Also npcs don't really prevent people from fitting cloaks or stabs.
Really? Would you say that anybody being targeted by a rat can't cloak? And that anybody who wants to kill a rat can't do it while cloaked?


Oh so your proposing that we go back to where you are constantly shooting rats (so they are preventing you from cloaking) and end the situation were the timer doesn't start to run until you kill all the rats? That would be a great move backwards.


Quote:

that you are calling just about everyone in your militia a moron, about your inability to shoot red crosses maybe try wormholes, or high sec missions, or fw missions, or belt ratting, or incursions, or anomalys or epic arcs or cosmos missions. But leave fw plexing as a single mechanic that allows pvp.

Any of the above activities is better than your criticizing the most intelliegent move ccp did with respect to fw.


X Gallentius wrote:

Nah, I'm just calling you a moron. I think everybody else understands that a notification system won't do squat, and that inappropriately sized rats invite massive levels of farming..


In this very thread Chatgris in your militia praises the changes to the npcs for not interferring with pvp. The reduction of the importance of the npcs in determing the outcome of the war has been applauded by just about every who wants it to be a pvp mechanic. Only you crying that the npcs won't prevent people from capturing plexes. the rest agree that is a job for the players.






Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815