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Threshold for ganking a Freighter should be higher? Discuss
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stoicfaux
#81 - 2013-02-15 01:08:02 UTC
Sentient Blade wrote:
Freighters should have a single low slot for fitting either a cargo, agility or defensive mode.

People who fit for cargo and die have not a leg to stand on.

Well, one of the arguments against buffing mining ships was that miners had the option to fit a tank instead of fitting for yield, thus most miners chose to be victims.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#82 - 2013-02-15 01:30:03 UTC
Core Researcher wrote:
If you are at war and u catch a freighter would double the EHP matter? triple?
You catch it in low sec, null sec, wormhole space, would it really matter?


Yes, it most certainly would. Twice the EHP means twice the time to rescue it. Twice the time to get it to a jump gate and possibly escape. Twice the time to (in highsec) get a neutral freighter on grid and transfer the cargo.

Core Researcher wrote:
You are zeroing in on the "make this more expensive" or "this less expensive" aspect.

What is really being debated here is an increase in EHP for a freighter, not an increase in cost for anything. The OP didnt make that clear but we're all clever dudes here in EvE right?


Which goes back to my point that you're asking for a substantial change to a class of ship so that you can haul more stuff before it becomes profitable to gank.

Core Researcher wrote:
I dont see your point on the Hulk either tbh?


If CCP was trying to balance cost of ganker vs. gankee, then they failed miserably with the hulk, as it's easily ganked with less than 10% of its value.

Core Researcher wrote:
Hulks were cheap to gank. Mining barges were buffed and players were given an option of tank or yield. So now it takes many more SUICIDE GANKERS to kill a tanked mining ship.


Hulks and Mackinaws are still cheap to gank. And miners have always had the choice of yield versus tank. And when the consistently chose yield over tank and lost their shiny exhumers for it, they cried to CCP to fix it.

The single greatest nerf to suicide ganking wasn't the mining barge buffs, it was revoking insurance payouts to the gankers.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Mark Munoz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2013-02-15 01:31:25 UTC
Core Researcher wrote:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Core Researcher wrote:
In the particular case of suicide ganking it DOES matter the comparative costs of the ships.


What you're suggesting is that the entire game be bent around the issue of suicide ganking. You want freighters to be harder for EVERYONE to kill, because they might be ganked. Alternatively, you want to make popular gank ships more expensive--or freigheters less expensive--in order to rectify this perceived imbalance.

Core Researcher wrote:
You know how I know this?

Mining barges.


it would take a LOT of catalysts to equal the value of a hulk. Far more than are required to gank one. You just lost the debate for yourself, well done.


ill bite.

If you are at war and u catch a freighter would double the EHP matter? triple?
You catch it in low sec, null sec, wormhole space, would it really matter?

You are zeroing in on the "make this more expensive" or "this less expensive" aspect.

What is really being debated here is an increase in EHP for a freighter, not an increase in cost for anything. The OP didnt make that clear but we're all clever dudes here in EvE right?

I dont see your point on the Hulk either tbh?

Hulks were cheap to gank. Mining barges were buffed and players were given an option of tank or yield. So now it takes many more SUICIDE GANKERS to kill a tanked mining ship.

So what was your point exactly and how did i lose any debate?


If I could speak for him I think he is referring to the fact that even the most tanked hulk can be ganked with less than 60 million in ships. The people ganking freighters are also SUICIDE GANKERS so I am not sure what your point in emphasizing that is.

Essentially what he is saying is you gave the example of the exhumer buff to show how CCP agrees with you. He is saying they don't as people are still ganking tanked exhumers all day long and for a fraction of the cost of the exhumer. The only explanation I can think of for your logic is making TANKED exhumer ganking no longer a solo activity. Again though nobody is solo-ganking any freighters so either way your logic is flawed.

The core thing here is cooperation. Freighters are ungankable by any other single player while trucking through hisec. It takes literally a team of people to stop you. So it is only fair it should also take a freighter a team of people to counter the gankers.

I think lots of players of this game forget that CCP's goal with this game was to make it as close to real life as possible. Do you see Banks security trucks running around town with just a driver picking up and dropping off loot? If you are under consideration for a gank in your freighter you are hauling enough to warrant a team, otherwise you are indeed just a lowly trucker that will likely have a very uneventful day. Use the brain-tank.
Core Researcher
Not You Fat Jesus
#84 - 2013-02-15 01:40:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Core Researcher
again, you zero in on the one thing but its what you dont say that is more interesting.

Yes, Hulks and Macks can still be ganked.

The glaring ommision here is the other 4 mining ships that are no longer as cheap to gank.

and frankly having seen a freighter killed solo by a vagabond I am doubtful about the arguments raised against a HP buff.

Perhaps the way to go would be to follow the mining ships: split freighter into high capacity/low tank through to low capacity/high tank.

Mark Munoz wrote:
If I could speak for him I think he is referring to the fact that even the most tanked hulk can be ganked with less than 60 million in ships. The people ganking freighters are also SUICIDE GANKERS so I am not sure what your point in emphasizing that is.

Essentially what he is saying is you gave the example of the exhumer buff to show how CCP agrees with you. He is saying they don't as people are still ganking tanked exhumers all day long and for a fraction of the cost of the exhumer. The only explanation I can think of for your logic is making TANKED exhumer ganking no longer a solo activity. Again though nobody is solo-ganking any freighters so either way your logic is flawed.

The core thing here is cooperation. Freighters are ungankable by any other single player while trucking through hisec. It takes literally a team of people to stop you. So it is only fair it should also take a freighter a team of people to counter the gankers.


the point of emphasizing this is to show shich particular group of players are the subject of debate.

As I said earlier in the thread:
Core Researcher wrote:

then we get the usual terribad response people roll out to this debate time and time again (looking at you trollface):

dont try to play solo in an MMO.

Fine - lets lock all mission gates, explorations sites, complexes, belts and pvp unless there is more than 1 player trying to access them/it.

No one will complain right, cause its an MMO durrrrr


you cant have it both ways: either its teams and thats how the game works, or its not teams, in which case arguments stating freighter should have an escort are flawed at best.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2013-02-15 01:46:24 UTC
give the freighter a HP buff so the vagabond would kill the unescorted thing in 10 minutes instead of 5?
Why didn't you save the freighter btw?
Mark Munoz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2013-02-15 01:50:14 UTC
Core Researcher wrote:
again, you zero in on the one thing but its what you dont say that is more interesting.

Yes, Hulks and Macks can still be ganked.

The glaring ommision here is the other 4 mining ships that are no longer as cheap to gank.

and frankly having seen a freighter killed solo by a vagabond I am doubtful about the arguments raised against a HP buff.

Perhaps the way to go would be to follow the mining ships: split freighter into high capacity/low tank through to low capacity/high tank.


So the Skiff and Procurer sure yeah thats a different topic but do you see many miners use them? Again instead of choosing the tank(Skiff,Procurer), miners choose the yield. I am not saying that people don't use the Skiff and the Procurer but the other exhumers and barges far outnumber them.

Are you sure this vagabond pilot wasn't at war or that this freighter wasn't already damaged? I don't fly a Vaga but most fits I am finding hover it around 500-600DPS, there is no way that sologanks a Freighter in highsec space unless they were a war target, a criminal, had kill rights etc.
Mark Munoz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2013-02-15 02:03:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Munoz
Quote:
the point of emphasizing this is to show shich particular group of players are the subject of debate.

As I said earlier in the thread:
Core Researcher wrote:

then we get the usual terribad response people roll out to this debate time and time again (looking at you trollface):

dont try to play solo in an MMO.

Fine - lets lock all mission gates, explorations sites, complexes, belts and pvp unless there is more than 1 player trying to access them/it.

No one will complain right, cause its an MMO durrrrr


you cant have it both ways: either its teams and thats how the game works, or its not teams, in which case arguments stating freighter should have an escort are flawed at best.


Well you edited this while I was responding to you.

EVE is a game that ENCOURAGES cooperation. Sure you can play by yourself all you want but don't get angry when a well organized team steam rolls your play style. That is quite literally what this game is about. If it wasn't it wouldn't take so long to train for roles in this game.

EVE is built from the ground up around the fact that you CAN'T do everything you want by yourself. You have to rely on other people to support your play style in some regard. This is why so many of us have alts just so we can try out all the different paths one can take in this game, or to support another alt in game.

You very clearly left out the most telling part of my quote here. Which was that if you are hauling highly valuable cargo you don't do that with 1 person in real life just as you shouldn't do that in game. In real life if you want to haul around valuables you hire a TEAM of people to transport them if you want to haul your sofa you hire a trucker.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#88 - 2013-02-15 02:05:52 UTC
Core Researcher wrote:
again, you zero in on the one thing but its what you dont say that is more interesting.

Yes, Hulks and Macks can still be ganked.

The glaring ommision here is the other 4 mining ships that are no longer as cheap to gank.


Mackinaws aren't "as cheap" to gank as they used to be. That's not the point. They can still be ganked for a fraction of their value. One of the points of your argument was that a billion isk worth of ships shouldn't be able to gank a 1.3 billion isk ship. That's faulty logic.

Core Researcher wrote:
and frankly having seen a freighter killed solo by a vagabond I am doubtful about the arguments raised against a HP buff.


It would take a vagabond roughly 5 minutes to chew through an obelisk right now. That's assuming perfect skills and a lightly-tanked vagabond. You really think the possibility of someone ganking your freighter justifies turning it into a mini-structure grind when it's a legitimate target?

Hey, there's an idea! Let's just put a reinforce timer on freighters so they can't be volleyed at all.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#89 - 2013-02-15 02:52:53 UTC
During the great buff all capitals save freighters were given 4x HP.
All weapons were made better across the board.
All other hulls were improved or didnt exist yet.
Freighters are quite literally built for a different era and most certainly of the 4x hp buff to be brought in line with other capitals.
Now some of you may wish to argue of the horror this would bring.
That ganking would no longer be profitable.
I ask of you what rights do a criminal have in the proceedings of the law abiding.
What do you have to demand of those you so callously kill.
You argue on profit and the worth to yourselves.
You see not a person, you see a variable a set of equations to be run through.
You have lost your humanity and with it your right to decide on the proceedings of others.

TLDR HTFUYWAB

Now really the issue is easy, give them midslots s they can tank some.
No issue of greater cargo or anything else like that.
Or we simply make it such that they cant be pinned by the logoff timers in highsec.
Especially as in this situation the bumping is most certainly a malicious and aggressive action upon the player and from this consistent with the activation of hostile modules.
From this we can gather based upon the posting and proclamations of our grand proclaimer CCP Falcon that you should in fact be Concordokkened for the actions taken.
Thus I plead to the bumpers to set you self destructs and at 30 seconds to go to hit that freighter with all you have.
In this manner you may simulate the swift and sure action action that would ordinarily follow Concord's wrath.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#90 - 2013-02-15 03:12:41 UTC
NEONOVUS wrote:
During the great buff all capitals save freighters were given 4x HP.


Seems CCP thought they were balanced already.

NEONOVUS wrote:
You have lost your humanity and with it your right to decide on the proceedings of others.


That was quite the strawman you used to dismiss an entire segment of the population as being sub-human.

NEONOVUS wrote:
From this we can gather based upon the posting and proclamations of our grand proclaimer CCP Falcon that you should in fact be Concordokkened for the actions taken.


What, pray tell, did Falcon say that makes you think bumping warrants a concord response?

Look at the GM response to miner bumping and then come back to the thread.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#91 - 2013-02-15 04:39:19 UTC
Buff freighters.

Against ALL Awoxers.

Against ALL Gankers.

Against ALL Bumpers.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Meredith Karrde
PORUS- InterStellar Mining Corporation
#92 - 2013-02-15 04:49:42 UTC
Ban criminals? XD
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#93 - 2013-02-15 04:52:47 UTC
Meredith Karrde wrote:
Ban criminals? XD

Awoxers and bumpers are not necessarily considered by the game as criminals. This has to change.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#94 - 2013-02-15 05:39:30 UTC
Core Researcher wrote:

you cant have it both ways: either its teams and thats how the game works, or its not teams, in which case arguments stating freighter should have an escort are flawed at best.

You do know that most people have figured out how to solo fly freighters in high sec. Its the complicated tactic of not putting ten billion in the hold.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#95 - 2013-02-15 05:40:35 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Core Researcher wrote:

you cant have it both ways: either its teams and thats how the game works, or its not teams, in which case arguments stating freighter should have an escort are flawed at best.

You do know that most people have figured out how to solo fly freighters in high sec. Its the complicated tactic of not putting ten billion in the hold.

You could split 10 billion into a team of 10 and be safe.

But wait, you could.. MULTIBOX FREIGHTERSSSSSSS

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#96 - 2013-02-15 05:49:20 UTC
IF increasing the threshold for ganking freighters will lower the cost to use red frog, I think it's a great idea. Otherwise, I don't really care.
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#97 - 2013-02-15 05:50:39 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Core Researcher wrote:

you cant have it both ways: either its teams and thats how the game works, or its not teams, in which case arguments stating freighter should have an escort are flawed at best.

You do know that most people have figured out how to solo fly freighters in high sec. Its the complicated tactic of not putting ten billion in the hold.

You could split 10 billion into a team of 10 and be safe.

But wait, you could.. MULTIBOX FREIGHTERSSSSSSS


Alternatively, couln't you fly 1 freighter with 10 billion and 9 blackbirds (or falcons if you have the sp for that) and be pretty safe?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#98 - 2013-02-15 05:51:20 UTC
Silk daShocka wrote:
IF increasing the threshold for ganking freighters will lower the cost to use red frog, I think it's a great idea. Otherwise, I don't really care.

Less risk, so yes, probably.

I take it that you, too, are against ALL gankers.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#99 - 2013-02-15 05:52:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Silk daShocka wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Core Researcher wrote:

you cant have it both ways: either its teams and thats how the game works, or its not teams, in which case arguments stating freighter should have an escort are flawed at best.

You do know that most people have figured out how to solo fly freighters in high sec. Its the complicated tactic of not putting ten billion in the hold.

You could split 10 billion into a team of 10 and be safe.

But wait, you could.. MULTIBOX FREIGHTERSSSSSSS


Alternatively, couln't you fly 1 freighter with 10 billion and 9 blackbirds (or falcons if you have the sp for that) and be pretty safe?

Not exactly foolproof. If it's tornados, you'd be trying to suicide on them if they aren't outlawed. Or they could lock with some alts, wait for you to jam them and die, then use another group on the other side of the gate to gank as your freighter hurriedly jumps away, into them.

FALCONs being expensive and now having the greatest tank, you might be chased off or ganked.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Crystara
Science and Trade Institute
#100 - 2013-02-15 05:59:40 UTC
Mark Munoz wrote:

The core thing here is cooperation. Freighters are ungankable by any other single player while trucking through hisec. It takes literally a team of people to stop you. So it is only fair it should also take a freighter a team of people to counter the gankers.



I, too, want an 8-men escort fleet for all my freighters at all times.

Recruiting now.
Be prepared to travel...a lot.

Awoxers are welcome.