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LVL 4 missions in high still....

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Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-02-14 21:17:38 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
UNLESS MY INFO is wrong and people cannot earn 50kk isk per hour from mission running. If they cant and it's closer to 20-30kk then i guess i can live with that. If they can earn 50kk then nerf this .


The basic problem is that the average mission runner makes 15-20kk, and there are a few hardcores, many of them alts of nullseccers in my personal experience, who chain them and farm them in painstakingly researched ships and fits to maximize ISK/hr for other things, usually PVP. Those guys can pull down 50kk/hr, easily. So the problem you have with a straight nerf is that you're decreasing the optimal mission payout to a level you consider reasonable, and the other 80% or 90% of mission runners, from the beginners in T1 battleships to the loners in failfit shinies, end up making less than ice miners, at considerably greater risk.

L4s used to pay so well because they were intended to be run by small groups. Unfortunately, CCP buffed their ships and not their missions, and so we arrive at the present day, when a friend of mine can solo both Angels Extravaganza (including the bonus room) and Worlds Collide in a T2 fit Drake--not quickly, mind you, but reliably. That, plus the fact that rewards don't scale with the number of participants, means that the ideal number of participants tends strongly toward one. (Scaling rewards to participants, however, would increase the overall ISK faucet and result in fleets of alts, so it's not that simple to fix.)

I'm not a particularly enthusiastic mission runner myself; I run them for standings, and I prefer to run them with other people just for the company. I use vanilla-fit T1 ships. I've never noticed L4 income as being all that great, but I've made very little effort to optimize it. The major change I've noticed is that I used to make a relative killing on loot and salvage, and now I only haul the Noctis out if there are an impressive number of elites and battleships in the mission.


The drake is definitely reliable, though less so because it's ability to project damage has been severely nerfed. Also factions with good kinetic resists make their missions just drag on. With the drone modifications the missions have become even slower as the one thing you could rely upon -- drones -- get targetted eventually in missions by the frigates they are designed to destroy which means you keep having to recall them and send out new groups.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#42 - 2013-02-14 21:21:38 UTC
L4 should be in lowsec.

The Tears Must Flow
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#43 - 2013-02-14 21:32:36 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
The drake is definitely reliable, though less so because it's ability to project damage has been severely nerfed. Also factions with good kinetic resists make their missions just drag on. With the drone modifications the missions have become even slower as the one thing you could rely upon -- drones -- get targetted eventually in missions by the frigates they are designed to destroy which means you keep having to recall them and send out new groups.


You're talking to a guy who's sent Abaddons into Angel missions. Yeah, the rat resists can really slow things down.

But the point is not that the Drake is so OP (though it was, and arguably still is); the point is that missions that were intended to be run by multiple people, possibly in battleships, can instead be soloed, not just by a marauder, but by a single T1 battlecruiser. And that's why the payout was nerfed. So the current payout level (which got nerfed twice, once with the elimination of drone alloys and again with the elimination of meta 0 drops) is already designed for a single person.

As to Sura Sativa's suggestion, the problem with making missions competitive is that it removes their most distinguishing feature, which is that you can just log in, chat up an agent, and go. Take that away, and the only kind of PVE left where you can just saddle up and ride will be ice mining.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#44 - 2013-02-14 21:35:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Wow "let thier do whatever they want" ... Sure fine for me. Most of you fail to understand that it's not about them doing what they want but about how much they earn from this. OP never said there should be no security missions in high sec.

Wtf is wrong with you guys ? It's all about ******** payout from missions. You see ******** km's where some mission runners are ganked ... very often ? Why because those carebears couldn't care less they can afford countless deadspace fitted ships - doing mind numbing easy and repeative lvl 4 missions.

All i'm asking is not to move them to low sec but cut thier income. No **** there is such inflation if they "print" such amounts of cash.

Stop trying to tell me i want them moved to low sec. I'm not stupid i know they will not move no matter what. I think they should earn good money from mission running , but as it's now it's way too much.

UNLESS MY INFO is wrong and people cannot earn 50kk isk per hour from mission running. If they cant and it's closer to 20-30kk then i guess i can live with that. If they can earn 50kk then nerf this .



its not mission running creating the inflation. It by and large is the same it has been for several years. I have been spamming this crap for over 3 years. Income can actually less. the loot tables have either adjusted, or the "goodies" it dropped have come down in price. Drone missions used to drop high end ores worth a few isk. Now its bounties that to me are a pay cut (I tbh used my drone poop to supplement industrial ventures).

It was PI that helped this happen. For those that happily click for hours (or unhappily but still do it) it can be easy money. Easy money that until dust is in place non-beta has no risk. Spam pi, sell stuff. Unless a tard who takes hundreds of million in stuff to jita all in one go in a no tank itty 5, you can't lose. I am hoping dust fixes this...the problem is PI has lived too long without any natural predators as it were, it may be too late.

And it was/is incursions. It was supposed to be challlenging content. At this point in time you have incursion crews who know full well the bare minumum setup to run them for max isk/hour. they are the raids of eve down to fc's saying no we don't need you, but we need that guy since he has the exact setup I like to smash this crap in record time.

And 0.0 not missing a chance at isk made this worse. Somewhere in the time frame since incursions released vindi prices have skyrocketed. Search the forums from 2 years ago and you could debate this was not even a top 5 pve ship worthy of its now 1.5 bil hull only price. Tengu, mach and even cnr would place higher. Now its an incusrion ownage mobile as I understand. With its new found fame, the 0.0 peeps who farm its bpc's are not scared to boost its price. for a completely different flipside, there is rattler fighitng inflation. It has adjusted price due to ore market changes ofc, but basically you are paying the same for these as you were 2 years ago once inflation factored in

CCP has fixed up FW with nice pve content. this has been a dual edge sword. More FW'ers, yay it needed a boost....but now making more isk. Even better is some of this content is low cost low skill isk making. Since we had those few member of goons to show ccp only cares if you make trillioins off of something they missed in play testing I will bet other holes in the code are still in game. Its jsut those who found them don't make it obvious now. 1 bil a month slips under the radar easier than a trillion isk setup.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#45 - 2013-02-14 21:41:18 UTC
genius OP is genius
ppl use blingy ships and even carriers to rat in null sec, go hunt them...u wont even lose sec status or get shot at by gate guns when u shoot PvE players..


a good level 4 will make u 15mil in bounties, 5mil in LP's, 20mil in loot, 3 mil in rewards and take about an hour to run and loot. approx 43mil/hour

this is assuming that all the loot sells at its regional average (which it wont unless u want a million near worthless sell orders), and u get a thousand isk per LP; which only 5% skill implants have a chance of getting and they take nearly 20 missions to get, cost 79mil isk to buy, often have to be sold at undercutting prices and take months to get rid of.

bounties are also highly dependent on rats. for example, angels pay out far less than serpentis or blood raiders.

this is before tax on sales and bounties and the cost of ammo/drones/repairs. nor does it include 4 hour waiting periods between crappy missions (which usually mean u call it a day, not wait for 4 hours)

its true, that everynow and then (like twice in my >2 year eve life) a faction spawn will appear and drop faction loot. the first time i got a crystal implant worth 400mil. the second time i got 100 serpentis lead large and a worthless tag (cheers).


when ppl try to show off their fit and say it can get so much isk/hour, they completely ignore tax, costs (some ppl use faction or T2 ammo and then completely ignore the ridiculous cost of such ammo) and assume that they always get max money for their loot and LP's. others outright lie about how much they get.

In truth, if i run missions for a day rather than focusing on other incomes (like null sec ratting), 70 mil a day with about 4-5 hours of play (which i dnt always have) is what i can generally achieve. the LP's will be saved for an implant ill be lucky to sell in the same month. loot will go into a hauler i'll mass sell for half its worth or reprocess, but it will generally make me far less money then its estimated price.

i do this with a 800 drone DPS rattler worth around 800mil all in, including T2 rigs.

Lvl 4 runners are able to afford blingy ships because they dnt have to replace lost ships. they can save up for anything they want. its not like they buy a tengu every week, or even every month. they buy it once...

TL:DR

Level 4's are a decent means of income given the risks. but many ppl lie, exaggerate or omit details and the reason some carebears have so much money is because they are not buying ships every week like most eve players and they can run missions all day, every day (botters or dnt have full time jobs).

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2013-02-14 21:55:15 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Quintessen wrote:
The drake is definitely reliable, though less so because it's ability to project damage has been severely nerfed. Also factions with good kinetic resists make their missions just drag on. With the drone modifications the missions have become even slower as the one thing you could rely upon -- drones -- get targetted eventually in missions by the frigates they are designed to destroy which means you keep having to recall them and send out new groups.


You're talking to a guy who's sent Abaddons into Angel missions. Yeah, the rat resists can really slow things down.

But the point is not that the Drake is so OP (though it was, and arguably still is); the point is that missions that were intended to be run by multiple people, possibly in battleships, can instead be soloed, not just by a marauder, but by a single T1 battlecruiser. And that's why the payout was nerfed. So the current payout level (which got nerfed twice, once with the elimination of drone alloys and again with the elimination of meta 0 drops) is already designed for a single person.

As to Sura Sativa's suggestion, the problem with making missions competitive is that it removes their most distinguishing feature, which is that you can just log in, chat up an agent, and go. Take that away, and the only kind of PVE left where you can just saddle up and ride will be ice mining.


The problem with non-solo content is that I can't find many people to group up with. Mostly it goes along with no loot distribution help which means that it's hard to just group up when someone is afraid you'll just take their stuff. Also it's not helped because people tend to not trust each other in EVE -- something the company promotes and fosters. Distrust is a central aspect of this game.

Finding people who also want to mission can be difficult for me (located around Rens). I'd actually like to try my hand at incursions as well, but finding people to do things with is much harder here than in most MMOs I've played. Maybe I've just missed something.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#47 - 2013-02-14 21:55:37 UTC
the above said:

hopefully making PvE a bit more like PvP will shake things up a bit. i wouldnt mind if Level 4's become un-soloable because u get tackled and jumped on by overwhelming DPS. instead if they require a bit of team work, ships of varying size and/or role or skillful piloting, it would up the game a bit.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#48 - 2013-02-14 22:03:14 UTC
After reading this thread up to this point, I have a great suggestion.

Remove all content from EVE that isn't PvP. All of it. No missions, no mining, no plexes, no moons, no ratting. Nothing but gatecamps, roaming gangs, bubbles and sov war. That way the only thing left to do in EVE will be to shoot at other people.

Perhaps then the crying PvPers, who are in fact an infinitely bigger source of tears than the carebears they hold in such low regard, will finally be happy.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#49 - 2013-02-14 22:03:34 UTC
Quintessen wrote:


Finding people who also want to mission can be difficult for me (located around Rens). I'd actually like to try my hand at incursions as well, but finding people to do things with is much harder here than in most MMOs I've played. Maybe I've just missed something.


incursions are a very high level entry. the difference between the lowest level incursion sites and the 2nd level is ridiculous. u go from requiring a couple of frigs, to several battleships with logi support only. and if ur a lone player and u try to join up with an incursion fleet, they're only interested if ur bringing bling fit faction battleships. i got told i couldn't attend unless i got a fed navy web, wut? and of course they dont want u making ur own fleet and coming into their sites...

so something with a similar feel to incursions that isnt an exclusive carebear club would be nice.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#50 - 2013-02-14 22:13:58 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Quintessen wrote:


Finding people who also want to mission can be difficult for me (located around Rens). I'd actually like to try my hand at incursions as well, but finding people to do things with is much harder here than in most MMOs I've played. Maybe I've just missed something.


incursions are a very high level entry. the difference between the lowest level incursion sites and the 2nd level is ridiculous. u go from requiring a couple of frigs, to several battleships with logi support only. and if ur a lone player and u try to join up with an incursion fleet, they're only interested if ur bringing bling fit faction battleships. i got told i couldn't attend unless i got a fed navy web, wut? and of course they dont want u making ur own fleet and coming into their sites...

so something with a similar feel to incursions that isnt an exclusive carebear club would be nice.


This isn't really on-topic with the thread, but..

A better solution for (almost) everyone involved is simply to smash the exclusivity. Reduce the payout slightly, reduce the difficulty slightly so as to provide a lower barrier for entry. Sure, the people already running shiny fleets will clear them even faster but then there's the part where incursion sites only spawn so fast... and if they don't have a fixed respawn rate, they should. Make it easier for someone to say "Fine, I'll make my own fleet" and then actually do so, get into an Incursion and start killing things, and you'll find that the "exclusive country clubs" immediately start rageposting about their iron grip being utterly broken.

/derailment
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#51 - 2013-02-15 08:16:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Azrael Dinn
Vaju Enki wrote:
L4 should be in lowsec.


And security status should be permanently negative if it ever drops below -5, and everyone with a sec below 0 should be a free target for anyone in high sec.

Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
After reading this thread up to this point, I have a great suggestion.

Remove all content from EVE that isn't PvP. All of it. No missions, no mining, no plexes, no moons, no ratting. Nothing but gatecamps, roaming gangs, bubbles and sov war. That way the only thing left to do in EVE will be to shoot at other people.

Perhaps then the crying PvPers, who are in fact an infinitely bigger source of tears than the carebears they hold in such low regard, will finally be happy.


This is called warhammer 40000 Twisted.



How about if you pirates keep to your thing in low sec and let the bears do their thing in high sec. And if lvl4 missions would be moved to low sec then the missioners would move to 0.0 or do lvl3 missions in high sec. There is NO reason why a missioner would even want to go to low sec. And if all of this would happen then you would complain about null bears.

Do you pirates ever run out of tears when it comes to the point that you need to find easy targets?

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#52 - 2013-02-15 10:24:00 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Snip


Perhaps if the would-be pirates didn't try to instantly swarm on everything all the time and hunt their prey to extinction, lowsec wouldn't have the reputation for being vastly more dangerous than nullsec and people might actually risk going there sometimes.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#53 - 2013-02-15 11:11:31 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Snip


Perhaps if the would-be pirates didn't try to instantly swarm on everything all the time and hunt their prey to extinction, lowsec wouldn't have the reputation for being vastly more dangerous than nullsec and people might actually risk going there sometimes.


hopefully making PvE more like PvP can give the PvE'res some resistance running sites and missions in low. however, once this happens, low sec pirates will be too scared to engage and will probably go to hi-sec.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#54 - 2013-02-15 11:17:47 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Snip


Perhaps if the would-be pirates didn't try to instantly swarm on everything all the time and hunt their prey to extinction, lowsec wouldn't have the reputation for being vastly more dangerous than nullsec and people might actually risk going there sometimes.


hopefully making PvE more like PvP can give the PvE'res some resistance running sites and missions in low. however, once this happens, low sec pirates will be too scared to engage and will probably go to hi-sec.


Perhaps they'll declare that missions should be moved to NPC null instead, so they can have bubbles without being shot at by the alliances that own sov null.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#55 - 2013-02-15 13:38:16 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:


when ppl try to show off their fit and say it can get so much isk/hour, they completely ignore tax, costs (some ppl use faction or T2 ammo and then completely ignore the ridiculous cost of such ammo) and assume that they always get max money for their loot and LP's. others outright lie about how much they get.

In truth, if i run missions for a day rather than focusing on other incomes (like null sec ratting), 70 mil a day with about 4-5 hours of play (which i dnt always have) is what i can generally achieve. the LP's will be saved for an implant ill be lucky to sell in the same month. loot will go into a hauler i'll mass sell for half its worth or reprocess, but it will generally make me far less money then its estimated price.

i do this with a 800 drone DPS rattler worth around 800mil all in, including T2 rigs.



lol 800 dps faction mission boats.

2013.02.14 13:49:04 Bounty Prizes 13,293,750.00 ISK
2013.02.14 13:44:51 Agent Mission Time Bonus Reward 2,700,000.00 ISK
2013.02.14 13:44:51 Agent Mission Reward 2,410,000.00 ISK

Thats 18mil shot in 15 minutes (as you can see I was back in station 5 minutes before the tick ended), with a t2 fit, tier1, tech1 battleship, out of region ( bloods vs regular dominix), without bothering to loot or salvage.

ie 70mil / hr peak rate including LP, 40mil/hr average rate including LP - I would expect a 5 hour binge to net at least 185mil after faction ammo, and I'd expect there are people out there who blitz properly who can do at least twice what I do.
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#56 - 2013-02-15 14:12:16 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
TL:DR

Level 4's are a decent means of income given the risks. but many ppl lie, exaggerate or omit details and the reason some carebears have so much money is because they are not buying ships every week like most eve players and they can run missions all day, every day (botters or dnt have full time jobs).

15mil bounty mission that takes an hour to complete is a good one?
You dont know how to get rid of bounty taxes?
1000/1 ISK/LP rate?
WOW. You are bad at agent running. Deal with it.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#57 - 2013-02-15 14:32:37 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
For me it's not more targets to shoot. IT's more about effort to get your money.


Yet you fail to explain with numbers how much isk per hour you do in high sec without 10x isbox toons, with a regular connextion time (2h 3x week should be considered as normal) and how much time you would need to GRIND rabbits to cover the eventual loos of your so pimpy uber pixels ferrari.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#58 - 2013-02-15 14:40:15 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
... however, once this happens, low sec pirates will be too scared to engage and will probably go to hi-sec.


Which they already do without any consequence other than show a red box, high sec is the safest place for those elite pvp fans.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#59 - 2013-02-15 14:44:58 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:


when ppl try to show off their fit and say it can get so much isk/hour, they completely ignore tax, costs (some ppl use faction or T2 ammo and then completely ignore the ridiculous cost of such ammo) and assume that they always get max money for their loot and LP's. others outright lie about how much they get.

In truth, if i run missions for a day rather than focusing on other incomes (like null sec ratting), 70 mil a day with about 4-5 hours of play (which i dnt always have) is what i can generally achieve. the LP's will be saved for an implant ill be lucky to sell in the same month. loot will go into a hauler i'll mass sell for half its worth or reprocess, but it will generally make me far less money then its estimated price.

i do this with a 800 drone DPS rattler worth around 800mil all in, including T2 rigs.



lol 800 dps faction mission boats.

2013.02.14 13:49:04 Bounty Prizes 13,293,750.00 ISK
2013.02.14 13:44:51 Agent Mission Time Bonus Reward 2,700,000.00 ISK
2013.02.14 13:44:51 Agent Mission Reward 2,410,000.00 ISK

Thats 18mil shot in 15 minutes (as you can see I was back in station 5 minutes before the tick ended), with a t2 fit, tier1, tech1 battleship, out of region ( bloods vs regular dominix), without bothering to loot or salvage.

ie 70mil / hr peak rate including LP, 40mil/hr average rate including LP - I would expect a 5 hour binge to net at least 185mil after faction ammo, and I'd expect there are people out there who blitz properly who can do at least twice what I do.



oh is it maths time? when did you accept the mission?
when did you start the mission?
what was the total payout of the mission?

I can also link the last three ticks that come into my wallet but that doesnt mean it took that long to finish what it was that made that isk tick happen

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2013-02-15 14:47:41 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:


when ppl try to show off their fit and say it can get so much isk/hour, they completely ignore tax, costs (some ppl use faction or T2 ammo and then completely ignore the ridiculous cost of such ammo) and assume that they always get max money for their loot and LP's. others outright lie about how much they get.

In truth, if i run missions for a day rather than focusing on other incomes (like null sec ratting), 70 mil a day with about 4-5 hours of play (which i dnt always have) is what i can generally achieve. the LP's will be saved for an implant ill be lucky to sell in the same month. loot will go into a hauler i'll mass sell for half its worth or reprocess, but it will generally make me far less money then its estimated price.

i do this with a 800 drone DPS rattler worth around 800mil all in, including T2 rigs.



lol 800 dps faction mission boats.

2013.02.14 13:49:04 Bounty Prizes 13,293,750.00 ISK
2013.02.14 13:44:51 Agent Mission Time Bonus Reward 2,700,000.00 ISK
2013.02.14 13:44:51 Agent Mission Reward 2,410,000.00 ISK

Thats 18mil shot in 15 minutes (as you can see I was back in station 5 minutes before the tick ended), with a t2 fit, tier1, tech1 battleship, out of region ( bloods vs regular dominix), without bothering to loot or salvage.

ie 70mil / hr peak rate including LP, 40mil/hr average rate including LP - I would expect a 5 hour binge to net at least 185mil after faction ammo, and I'd expect there are people out there who blitz properly who can do at least twice what I do.


My general experience is they're not all like this though.

And please post your fit (or at least your ship and major modules). People keep claiming stuff like this, but provide little if any evidence that it's just that easy to get into.