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Living in a C4 without a tower?
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Matt Ellis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-02-13 16:40:10 UTC
Melikor Tissant wrote:
Matt Ellis wrote:
Cool. you sound like you know what your doing. Bear in mind that the orca has the signature radius of a planet(not quite), so you might not have time to warp over, store ships and warp out, depending on how good the attacking party is. Just a heads up, alot of WH'ers are pretty good in working out where your safe is before they even launch probes, so they can get you in 1 scan. If you want to get away quicker, make sure you fit the orca with a 100mn Microwarp, and pulse it when warping. Gives you a 10sec align > warp. Unless his probes are on you when you decloak, he wont get to you in time.



Have some experience in making safe spots Big smile
The warpdrive trick will be used of course.


Then best of luck to ya. Fly Dangerous, and i hope we meet in Space o7
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2013-02-13 18:57:02 UTC
Melikor Tissant wrote:
Cheers.

Thanks for the solid replies.

We can each hold at least 3 pilots up at a time.
So it can be two tengus, two probers, an orca and a salvager/BR hauler.

We were thinking that if we find out someone is probing around and its not us, we can jump to the orca, replace the tengus with covert-ops/recons and hide everything in different spots (orca jump to another safe location while cloak timer is running).
This should take care of not needing to jump around until NPC timer is out. I have a bit of experience doing so in null.

From the suggestions, it seems that putting up a death-star large tower is required if we want to live constantly in there.
The only problem I guess is refuling it, needing to constantly do runs to high sec bringing fuel in (at least ice products if the WH provice us with the rest). I was hoping to avoid it, and only have to bring my BR in and out of WH space using a prober as escort to bring stuff out and ammo in.

One correction: you'll want a 'hard' dickstar setup with neuts, not a deathstar.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#23 - 2013-02-13 20:58:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Melikor Tissant wrote:
Thanks for the replies.


The reason we were thinking about not using a POS is because we aren't online every day.
So if someone comes and see our small tower with just a maintenance array, he will call a few friends and they will blow it up, and we won't know about it by the time we do come online.

I guess a carrier at the moment is out of the question. An offline orca might still be viable if we want to keep the T3s off the grid, even when using a POS.

I guess putting a small tower with a ship array to store the few inexpensive ships (salvager, a few probers, T1 haulers) and some ammo will be fine and not too expensive if we lose them, while the expensive loot we keep in the orca.

This sounds more reasonable?


And to the "lol"s earlier, we want some challenge in the game. Null is boring (I was roaming in the north for 3 weeks doing some plexes and was not chased or cared about at all), low is full of gate camps mostly, and WHs seemed to be more "unknown" and fun because of that.
A C4 is deep enough to feel isolated from occacional pvpers or not too deep that be noticed by large pvp WH groups, we don't need an "amazing" WH to call it home, and its easy to get into lower sites or do sites locally with the right ships.


I'd say that a small POS is super handy to have, even if you're just camping. My C2 "camping" setup:
- Small POS (60M + Fuel)
- Char 1: Prowler (~150M?, loot goes here, log off in this) + T1 Salvage Cruiser (15M, sits in POS, who cares if you lose it)
- Char 2: Sleipnir (~700M?). I'm thinking of trying to switch to an Oracle or Zealot. Man, **** ammo anyway.

Scaling this up is fairly easy:
- Small POS
- Prowlers (loot goes here, immediately. Log off in this)
- T3 Booster Alts (Interdiction Nullified, Covops, probe launchers - sitting in POS to give boosts)
- T1 cruiser salvage ships sitting in the POS
- Offline Scanning Alts [Quickly becomes mandatory]
- DPS, Logi, whatever

Scaling the POS up to a large snarling death star of doom gives you a lot more flexibility and lets you actually live in the wormhole rather than simply camp in it. I guess it opens you up to people trying to knock it over, but ... /shrug

-Liang

Ed: I could probably do the same camp setup in a C3 and switch the Sleip for a Tengu. But I've found that a Sleip in a C2 makes me personally more ISK than a Tengu in a C3. It just takes too long to solo the sites in the C3 and ~pve~. I want to kill ****.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-02-13 21:08:01 UTC
IMO the only downside to a large "anything" star POS is the time and effort to set it up. Especially in a C4+. All the hauling of mods etc. Once it is done basically it becomes "I'm gonna be here awhile cause i certainly don't want to do that again anytime soon".

I understand why so many corps just leave their POS inside to rot when they move out. It's barely worth the isk to bother taking it down.
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
#25 - 2013-02-13 22:47:02 UTC
The idea of living in a WH as a nomadic corp is a concept a friend and I have explored in great detail. There is one HUGE problem, however: you ALL have to be on to really do anything effectively, whether running sites or moving holes. Its not realistic, especially giving how fluid wh space is. One moment you're all carebearing it up. The next moment, you are getting ganked and dying horribly.

Also, as a wormholer in absentia, I can tell you from when I was active, that we killed a many a cov ops frigates. It'd be a shame for your probers to accidentally themselves into a gate camp and you are stuck there.

You should just go large POS **** starred. No one coming into a C4 will bother it (most likely). C4s are empty because a lot of people choose to live in C2/C4 holes or just go up to C5 for escalations, as the payouts get so substantially much better. Plus, C4s do not get direct K-space access, as has been mentioned, so getting in and out is a huge, huge pain (sometimes).

Tl;Dr Get a POS. Disk Star it. Get at least two-three caps plus a subcap fleet. Trade cell phone numbers with friends for batphone purposes. Be space rich (somewhat--people in C5/C5 are richer and more pro).
Marsan
#26 - 2013-02-14 02:07:39 UTC
Heck an empty small POS is unlikely to be attacked. If you log off in your Orca, and Tengus with maybe a couple covert ops and a few cheap ship left hanging out inside the field. No one in their right mind will siege a small tower with no arrays in a C4, and stront. It's just just too painful to get a small tower kil.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#27 - 2013-02-14 02:20:44 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
IMO the only downside to a large "anything" star POS is the time and effort to set it up. Especially in a C4+. All the hauling of mods etc. Once it is done basically it becomes "I'm gonna be here awhile cause i certainly don't want to do that again anytime soon".

I understand why so many corps just leave their POS inside to rot when they move out. It's barely worth the isk to bother taking it down.


This can be minimised/streamlined a bit with some thought - a lot of people don't (seem to) really know how to setup a POS and either throw a handful of random mods on it or go nuts and haul in 100 of everything.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-02-14 03:44:09 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
IMO the only downside to a large "anything" star POS is the time and effort to set it up. Especially in a C4+. All the hauling of mods etc. Once it is done basically it becomes "I'm gonna be here awhile cause i certainly don't want to do that again anytime soon".

I understand why so many corps just leave their POS inside to rot when they move out. It's barely worth the isk to bother taking it down.


This can be minimised/streamlined a bit with some thought - a lot of people don't (seem to) really know how to setup a POS and either throw a handful of random mods on it or go nuts and haul in 100 of everything.



Well I put lots of thought into our POS setup. The mix of ECM, mix of guns etc, to also compliment the number of POS gunners we have etc. It doesn't change the fact that POS + FUEL + Stront + even the minimum number of mods is a fair amount to get in, especially into a C4. And once in its f**king tedious to anchor everything. I swear it has to be one of the worst interfaces ever.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#29 - 2013-02-14 05:15:05 UTC
Oh I'm not disagreeing, but a lot of people seem to make it harder work on themselves than it needs to be.
Xtrah
Overload This
#30 - 2013-02-14 09:16:31 UTC
Melikor Tissant wrote:
Xtrah wrote:
Farmers..? P

Aren't everyone?
Besides, with 5-6 hours a week of gameplay, I'm not sure either of us can be considered farmers.


Ehm, no. If you move into a WH to make ISK, you are considered a farmer regardless of hours per week playing, and the primary eviction target for PVP alliances. I live in a WH to lose billions worth of ships and laugh at it, to avoid the drama and politics of K-space, not to make ISK Smile

Good luck anyway.

YouTube channel

Latest video: Bhaals Deep against TLC (dread/triage)
Melikor Tissant
Odd Fluffy Bunnies
#31 - 2013-02-14 12:02:13 UTC
Xtrah wrote:
Melikor Tissant wrote:
Xtrah wrote:
Farmers..? P

Aren't everyone?
Besides, with 5-6 hours a week of gameplay, I'm not sure either of us can be considered farmers.


Ehm, no. If you move into a WH to make ISK, you are considered a farmer regardless of hours per week playing, and the primary eviction target for PVP alliances. I live in a WH to lose billions worth of ships and laugh at it, to avoid the drama and politics of K-space, not to make ISK Smile

Good luck anyway.


Some farm ISK, some farm tears.
But everyone are farming something P

But I get your point Smile

Anyway we talked and decided that a small tower to keep some of the hauling ships with some ammo in them is the best option. Cheap enough to maintain and we wouldn't care less if we log in and it will be gone.
The orca will keep all the expensive stuff, and we will bring several alts for probing, recon, support and so on with us.

If things go decent enough (not being evicted too many times), and we gather the ISK to support a larger tower, we might go to a dickstar if we need more expensive stuff or want to setup some BSs, or decide we enjoy it enough to join a WH corp if they accept us.

Cheers.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2013-02-14 13:31:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Melikor Tissant wrote:
Matt Ellis wrote:
Cool. you sound like you know what your doing. Bear in mind that the orca has the signature radius of a planet(not quite), so you might not have time to warp over, store ships and warp out, depending on how good the attacking party is. Just a heads up, alot of WH'ers are pretty good in working out where your safe is before they even launch probes, so they can get you in 1 scan. If you want to get away quicker, make sure you fit the orca with a 100mn Microwarp, and pulse it when warping. Gives you a 10sec align > warp. Unless his probes are on you when you decloak, he wont get to you in time.



Have some experience in making safe spots Big smile
The warpdrive trick will be used of course.



Don't rely on the warpdrive trick. Have the Orca already aligned to the next safe. And whatever you do, don't bump it.

Quote:
From the suggestions, it seems that putting up a death-star large tower is required if we want to live constantly in there.
The only problem I guess is refuling it, needing to constantly do runs to high sec bringing fuel in (at least ice products if the WH provice us with the rest). I was hoping to avoid it, and only have to bring my BR in and out of WH space using a prober as escort to bring stuff out and ammo in.


You only need to fuel the pos once a month, not constantly. As mentioned, a small tower is very portable though is seen as a trophy and not an obstacle by most w-space corps as they can be reinforced relatively quickly. But, it may be worth having one as a safe base of operations when you're online just use the Orca for it's SMA/CHA. Maybe put a small gun or two on it plus a web and/or scram to keep nosy frigates away. Or nothing at all. Just don't log off within its FF else you might come back to fleet waiting for you in its place.

And BTW, finding a chain to K-space isn't going to be that hard. Finding a safe chain is the hard part.

Don't ban me, bro!
Scoto Timta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-02-14 19:31:34 UTC
One of the main questions I think you need to ask yourself is, "What do I gain by living/camping in w-space versus daytripping?"

PVE sites...
The sites in your own hole will be limited, of course. You CAN be relatively secure when running them, but once they deplete you are looking at scanning down other systems (your static, etc). Security in those other holes is a bit less secure than in your home and only marginally (in my opinion) better than if you had entered from any other entry system.

I do a lot of scouting and I find that most holes I scan/enter appear quiet. That is, residents seem to be offline, nobody else is active, and often there are no K162s other than the one I used to enter. Securing that system for a pve op would be just about as easy as if it was my home's static.

PI...
If you plan to do PI then yes, this is only really viable by setting up shop in the hole. But it also kinda requires a long-term commitment, not just a 5-day camp, unless there are already low-tax Customs Offices. Then the question becomes - is it worth the cost of buying, equipping, and fueling a tower? Will the income from PI offset the tower cost/hassle? Depends on how many people do it, I would imagine.

PvP
You will have to roam for most of your PI (unless your tower is seiged, etc). Living in the starting hole is only a minor advantage in that you have 1 (or 2 if in a c2) guaranteed system. But otherwise, it is still "luck of the draw" as to what will be in your chain. But if you were living in hisec, for example, you can roam all over and find plenty of wormholes to explore. And then explore their statics and K162s. Much higher odds to find someone that is active. And since you are a small group of players, you aren't gonna be trying to find c5/6 groups to engage anyway.

One other advantage to daytripping... If you go wandering down a chain and get whacked, you lose the ship (and maybe pod) you were flying. All your other stuff is safe in k-space. If that happens while you live in w-space, I hope you have alts to scan a path back home to your stuff. Living in k-space, your stuff is safe in a station. Living in w-space, it is always vulnerable to someone shooting your POS/Orca/etc.

That wall of text isn't meant to talk you out of moving into w-space. From a perspective of having fun it might make sense for you to do it, even if it doesn't make economic sense. That is a decision only you can make. Just don't think you HAVE to live in w-space to do stuff there.
Ethan Revenant
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#34 - 2013-02-14 19:32:54 UTC
Just set up a POS with good defenses and do some PI to offset your fuel costs if you can. If you don't have tons of goodies floating around inside the shields and there are obviously not that many of you, people will probably leave you alone out of disinterest. If you want to live in a C4, I recommend a C4 > C3 if you can run the C3 sites efficiently. Be ready to shoot back if a few people land on you -- you'd be surprised at how far retaliation will get you. Don't bother with a capital if there's only two of you. It will be a very appetizing target when in space and you won't be able to defend it. It won't provide enough of an advantage to be worth it. I know you're ready to lose it and all, but just fly a Scimitar if you want dedicated shield logi.

If you really want a small tower, for the love of god defend it. Stront it and put on points and guns and webs and ECM and all that nonsense. People will lolreinforce things if you make it easy to sit on the POS and shoot at it. And seriously, be ready and willing to engage people who attack you. Fly something that can at least fight back against an equal sized force. You have to have something to spend that isk on, after all. Do a little hunting and killing of your own. You might like it.
Bronya Boga
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2013-02-17 15:22:01 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
C4s.. lol.
living in C4... haha lol.


Why is that funny? Ugh We enjoy it.
Hench Tenet
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2013-02-19 03:04:22 UTC
I don't know why you expected people to chase you down in your covops or tengu or w/e in k-space. If you are trying not to be found, you are 99% impossible to catch. And that is why people won't bother hunting you.
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