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Allowed or not Allowed - CCP some guidance?
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Mackenzie Hawkwood
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-02-13 23:23:59 UTC
Glathull wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Glathull wrote:
Screegs was pretty clear in the thread you linked. He doesn't want anyone interacting with local files at all. I can see his point. Technically opening a file is modifying it, since the file's metadata has to be updated to reflect the last time it was accessed. So that strict stance is just an extremely literal interpretation of the EULA.

It's not policy to ban people for cache-scraping today. Given the above-mentioned literal approach that Screegs takes on these things, I would take those words to mean exactly what they say. The implication is that the story could change tomorrow, or as soon as CCP gets the cache scraping functionality provided by the API, which is what Screegs said he wanted in the thread you linked to.

So yeah, bottom line is that cache scraping is illegal. But you won't get banned for it. Yet.


While I can certainly also see his point, Screegs does not make CCP policy by himself (e.g. the EULA), he simply enforces a section of it via his mighty banhammer.

That further contributes to the gray area



I think it's a grey area now because there are things preventing him from wielding his hammer. His intent is clearly indicated in the thread. That fact that his intent isn't official policy is something he's also clearly not happy about. So you can bet that Screegs is going to give up on this issue and forget about it or quit or something because he just doesn't care, or you can bet that he is going to arrange things so that official policy reflects his opinion that has been clearly expressed.

Which one of those two things do you think is more likely to happen?


Yes, he made his opinion abundantly clear, he believes that cashe scraping should be illegal, but he is currently in a minority at CCP that believe this to be the case and he doesn't want to accept that.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601747#post2601747
I've never agreed with it. My stance of "Don't modify the client" hasn't changed since day one. That GMs for some reason have a different interpretation than I do is irrelevant.

He now seems to be on a personal crusade to force this view on others and thus force a change in the rules and bugga the GM's that don't think as he does.
CCP need to sort this out and get everyone involved in this to work from the same page, as it were. This sort of inconsistency between GM has been going on for as long as I have been playing.

Why a switch on/off? Because the new animation doesn't add anything to gameplay and it's graphically annoying. In other words, it's worse than bad: it's useless. Simple as that. - Kina Ayami
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#22 - 2013-02-13 23:27:10 UTC
Agustice Arterius wrote:
More information on this would be cool.

People are quoting Screegs on reddit as if he is saying stuff like "I want to ban everybody for alt tabbing".

But I mean, that's reddit so...


In the News Article CCP Manifest provided here talk is about a blog coming soon.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2013-02-13 23:42:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Tbh, if you download the whole market of a whole region,
then you really really really deserve to get your ass kicked,
but THAT'S just my personal opinion.

What's not my personal opinion, though, is the following:


You do it ... and that's already kind of an unfair advantage ... but okay, you're smart.
Suddenly others become smart too and do it too.
One of these smart people becomes even smarter and makes this available to EVEN MORE PEOPLE.
Now EVEN MORE PEOPLE do it and suddenly ... who would have funk ! ... EVERYBODY DOES IT !


Conclusion: Market goes BOOM !


And i don't mean just The Forge and a few items.
No ! Come on, that's ridiculous !

I'm talking about
Literally
Every single item
In every region
In every system.


BOOM ! The End.
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#24 - 2013-02-13 23:45:05 UTC
Mackenzie Hawkwood wrote:


Yes, he made his opinion abundantly clear, he believes that cashe scraping should be illegal, but he is currently in a minority at CCP that believe this to be the case and he doesn't want to accept that.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601747#post2601747
I've never agreed with it. My stance of "Don't modify the client" hasn't changed since day one. That GMs for some reason have a different interpretation than I do is irrelevant.

He now seems to be on a personal crusade to force this view on others and thus force a change in the rules and bugga the GM's that don't think as he does.
CCP need to sort this out and get everyone involved in this to work from the same page, as it were. This sort of inconsistency between GM has been going on for as long as I have been playing.



I don't disagree with you at all. The OP wanted clarification, and I was trying to help out. I don't think we'll get any more than what we've already gotten.

CCP is divided on the issue. Screegs has an opinion. My guess is that his opinion will win in the long run and you're taking risks by cache scraping. But for an official statement, I doubt we will see one until some consensus is reached within CCP.

Until then, I interpret Screegs as meaning, "Do this at your own risk."

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#25 - 2013-02-13 23:46:34 UTC
Glathull wrote:
Mackenzie Hawkwood wrote:


Yes, he made his opinion abundantly clear, he believes that cashe scraping should be illegal, but he is currently in a minority at CCP that believe this to be the case and he doesn't want to accept that.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601747#post2601747
I've never agreed with it. My stance of "Don't modify the client" hasn't changed since day one. That GMs for some reason have a different interpretation than I do is irrelevant.

He now seems to be on a personal crusade to force this view on others and thus force a change in the rules and bugga the GM's that don't think as he does.
CCP need to sort this out and get everyone involved in this to work from the same page, as it were. This sort of inconsistency between GM has been going on for as long as I have been playing.



I don't disagree with you at all. The OP wanted clarification, and I was trying to help out. I don't think we'll get any more than what we've already gotten.

CCP is divided on the issue. Screegs has an opinion. My guess is that his opinion will win in the long run and you're taking risks by cache scraping. But for an official statement, I doubt we will see one until some consensus is reached within CCP.

Until then, I interpret Screegs as meaning, "Do this at your own risk."


I'm pretty sure that Sreegs will make a formal and official announcement when cache scraping is no longer allowed and the allowed functionality is replicated via API.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#26 - 2013-02-13 23:53:20 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


I'm pretty sure that Sreegs will make a formal and official announcement when cache scraping is no longer allowed and the allowed functionality is replicated via API.

-Liang



Almost certainly. But then again, I would've thought CCP would announce major changes to skills like orcas and command ships as early as they announced the dessy/BC changes. So who knows what they will announce.


But I digress . . . .

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-02-13 23:56:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Uppsy Daisy
Solstice Project wrote:
Tbh, if you download the whole market of a whole region,
then you really really really deserve to get your ass kicked,
but THAT'S just my personal opinion.

What's not my personal opinion, though, is the following:


You do it ... and that's already kind of an unfair advantage ... but okay, you're smart.
Suddenly others become smart too and do it too.
One of these smart people becomes even smarter and makes this available to EVEN MORE PEOPLE.
Now EVEN MORE PEOPLE do it and suddenly ... who would have funk ! ... EVERYBODY DOES IT !


Conclusion: Market goes BOOM !


And i don't mean just The Forge and a few items.
No ! Come on, that's ridiculous !

I'm talking about
Literally
Every single item
In every region
In every system.


BOOM ! The End.


The Eve Marketeer website (back when it was up) allowed you to do precisely this, with no interaction.

It was then trivial to start up a tool like Eve Mentat and load up all the prices via cache scraping, and compare them to your orders.

It was not rocket science, in fact quite the contrary.

And EVERYONE *was* doing it, and thinking it was legal.

But is it?
Marius Deterium
Crush Kill Destroy
#28 - 2013-02-14 00:00:32 UTC
Does it really matter what Screegs opinion is?

CCP needs clear definition on these issues and not let wild GMs and guys who call them self "Screeg" making bannable decisions on their whim at the time.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#29 - 2013-02-14 00:07:02 UTC
Glathull wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


I'm pretty sure that Sreegs will make a formal and official announcement when cache scraping is no longer allowed and the allowed functionality is replicated via API.

-Liang



Almost certainly. But then again, I would've thought CCP would announce major changes to skills like orcas and command ships as early as they announced the dessy/BC changes. So who knows what they will announce.


But I digress . . . .


Those are different departments

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#30 - 2013-02-14 00:07:52 UTC
Marius Deterium wrote:
Does it really matter what Screegs opinion is?

CCP needs clear definition on these issues and not let wild GMs and guys who call them self "Screeg" making bannable decisions on their whim at the time.


Yes, it does. Because he is the final arbiter of whether the application that you wrote to make your market trades inhumanly fast is a bot. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Marius Deterium
Crush Kill Destroy
#31 - 2013-02-14 00:09:24 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Marius Deterium wrote:
Does it really matter what Screegs opinion is?

CCP needs clear definition on these issues and not let wild GMs and guys who call them self "Screeg" making bannable decisions on their whim at the time.


Yes, it does. Because he is the final arbiter of whether the application that you wrote to make your market trades inhumanly fast is a bot. :)

-Liang


I believe my point was, that it shouldn't.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#32 - 2013-02-14 00:12:26 UTC
Marius Deterium wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Marius Deterium wrote:
Does it really matter what Screegs opinion is?

CCP needs clear definition on these issues and not let wild GMs and guys who call them self "Screeg" making bannable decisions on their whim at the time.


Yes, it does. Because he is the final arbiter of whether the application that you wrote to make your market trades inhumanly fast is a bot. :)

-Liang


I believe my point was, that it shouldn't.


There is always going to be someone who is the final arbiter. In this case, his name is CCP Sreegs.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2013-02-14 00:13:03 UTC
So what if I copy the data into a different directory then scrape it?
Or even better what if I play EVE once on a hdd then switch to another EVE client and use that on a separate hdd, reformatting and reinstalling EVE between each switch?
Or worse setup a raid backup then use the data written to the backup and thus never touch the game cache that is used in the first place?
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-02-14 00:13:46 UTC
I agree Liang.

There have been previous petitions to GMs about cache scraping, and they have come back saying it is legal, so long as it doesn't modify the files, which it doesn't.

This can be found in the forums if you search a bit.

Using the In Game Browsers in-built functions is surely legal, otherwise why not just remove them..

And it really is so simple to put the two together to make some very powerful tools by opening the market pane through the In Game browser, then scraping the prices from the cache.

People are using this method everywhere to update spreadsheets, buy/sell orders, etc

I find it hard to believe that CCP are now calling this 'botting'.

Or at least CCP Screegs, who is the final arbiter, is calling it botting.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#35 - 2013-02-14 00:15:52 UTC
NEONOVUS wrote:
So what if I copy the data into a different directory then scrape it?
Or even better what if I play EVE once on a hdd then switch to another EVE client and use that on a separate hdd, reformatting and reinstalling EVE between each switch?
Or worse setup a raid backup then use the data written to the backup and thus never touch the game cache that is used in the first place?


Once CCP declares the cache off limits, this behavior will get you banned. Use the API like you're supposed to.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#36 - 2013-02-14 00:18:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
I agree Liang.

There have been previous petitions to GMs about cache scraping, and they have come back saying it is legal, so long as it doesn't modify the files, which it doesn't.

This can be found in the forums if you search a bit.

Using the In Game Browsers in-built functions is surely legal, otherwise why not just remove them..

And it really is so simple to put the two together to make some very powerful tools by opening the market pane through the In Game browser, then scraping the prices from the cache.

People are using this method everywhere to update spreadsheets, buy/sell orders, etc

I find it hard to believe that CCP are now calling this 'botting'.

Or at least CCP Screegs, who is the final arbiter, is calling it botting.


Unfortunately you don't know what CCP is ruling botting. You just know that what "John" did has been ruled botting, and CCP Sreegs has said he'd rather cache scraping be illegal. Honestly, this all strikes me as a bunch of people wanting to find out exactly where the line is for their bots.

-Liang

Ed: I will disclose that my personal approach to botting is an instant and permanent ban to any suspicious behavior. You're better off with the lost user than allowing people to **** up your game for the entire population.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#37 - 2013-02-14 00:23:10 UTC
One final note: it is eminently reasonable that "John" was outright market botting and was claiming he was using more legitimate tools than he actually was. Just because he was a nice guy doesn't really mean anything here.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#38 - 2013-02-14 00:25:08 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:


Then CCP Sreegs declares loading cache files to be illegal ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601788#post2601788 )

The player base really needs some clarity on what allowed and what is not.


If I was a betting man, I'd say you got your clarity in your own post. A Dev has outright told you that its illegal, and he's the one that handles banning you for botting, so I'd probably just stick with what you've recently been told.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Tesal
#39 - 2013-02-14 00:41:55 UTC
Couldn't they just encrypt the cache if they didn't want you to use it? They did that with BACON I think.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#40 - 2013-02-14 00:45:12 UTC
Tesal wrote:
Couldn't they just encrypt the cache if they didn't want you to use it? They did that with BACON I think.


All this does is raise the barrier for entry. Botters still have access to both the hardware and the code running the cache.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.