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Allowed or not Allowed - CCP some guidance?

Author
Uppsy Daisy
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-02-13 20:58:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Uppsy Daisy
First the relevant point from the EULA

"You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game."

Next the things that could possibly be categorised as breaking the above, or not.

1) Use the EVE In-Game Browser's ShowMarketDetails() javascript method to move the market pane to a specific item.

2) Use the EVE In-Game Browser's ShowMarketDetails() javascript method in a loop to cycle through a predefined set of items, (given that there is a built-in delay between each item showing to prevent server overload and abuse).

3) Load prices from the EvE client cache that have previously been viewed in the Market Pane, by using the many available libraries (libevecache, EveCacheParser, EveCache.NET).

It really is very, very easy to string these three together into something that will feed you up to date sell/buy orders of anything. Given your characters current sell/buy orders are available through the EVE API, even the simplest of simpletons could see how this could be 'used' to accelerate the rate that a character acquires ISK.

Now, up until the last week, all of these (apart from putting them together perhaps) were considered perfectly legal.

Commonly used sites with market scanners that have been linked to many times from these forums with no comment from CCP:

- http://eve.addicts.nl/market_scanner.php
- http://eve-central.com/home/upload_suggest.html
- http://eve-marketdata.com/update_market.php
- https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1721979

All of these sites us the In Game Browser *specifically* for the purpose of loading up the cached results.

- EveMon scrapes your cache 1), loads the prices, and sends them to Eve Central.

- Eve Mentat scrapes your cache and lets you compare the prices with your orders.

There are many, many, many player tools that have not been declared illegal that use one or all of these methods.

Then CCP Sreegs declares loading cache files to be illegal ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601788#post2601788 )

The player base really needs some clarity on what allowed and what is not.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#2 - 2013-02-13 21:33:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
I too would like an official CCP response on this.

There are too many gray areas presently and the HUGE potential for more GD forum drama given Sreegs recent comment about cache scraping.

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Felicity Love
Doomheim
#3 - 2013-02-13 21:38:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Felicity Love
... should make for some interesting debates/question periods during Fanfest....

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )

Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#4 - 2013-02-13 21:55:17 UTC
Hopping around the grey area is alright, as long as you are not surprised or angry when they decide enough is enough and they reach over and drag you in.
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#5 - 2013-02-13 21:55:42 UTC
Screegs was pretty clear in the thread you linked. He doesn't want anyone interacting with local files at all. I can see his point. Technically opening a file is modifying it, since the file's metadata has to be updated to reflect the last time it was accessed. So that strict stance is just an extremely literal interpretation of the EULA.

It's not policy to ban people for cache-scraping today. Given the above-mentioned literal approach that Screegs takes on these things, I would take those words to mean exactly what they say. The implication is that the story could change tomorrow, or as soon as CCP gets the cache scraping functionality provided by the API, which is what Screegs said he wanted in the thread you linked to.

So yeah, bottom line is that cache scraping is illegal. But you won't get banned for it. Yet.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon

Uppsy Daisy
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-02-13 21:59:45 UTC
The 'Date Last Accessed' time stamp is optional on NTFS file systems.

In Windows 7 it is disabled by default.

http://beingpc.com/2011/04/how-to-enable-time-stamp-in-windows-7/

Palovana
Inner Fire Inc.
#7 - 2013-02-13 22:02:56 UTC
Glathull wrote:
Screegs was pretty clear in the thread you linked. He doesn't want anyone interacting with local files at all. I can see his point. Technically opening a file is modifying it, since the file's metadata has to be updated to reflect the last time it was accessed. So that strict stance is just an extremely literal interpretation of the EULA.

It's not policy to ban people for cache-scraping today. Given the above-mentioned literal approach that Screegs takes on these things, I would take those words to mean exactly what they say. The implication is that the story could change tomorrow, or as soon as CCP gets the cache scraping functionality provided by the API, which is what Screegs said he wanted in the thread you linked to.

So yeah, bottom line is that cache scraping is illegal. But you won't get banned for it. Yet.


Opening a file is NOT modifying it - if you set noatime on the file system (and I do so to prevent unnecessary SSD writes), the file's inode isn't updated when you access it.

But I don't run a cache scraping program either (though the cache gets SCRAPPED as in deleted before I start the client after every patch).

So I really don't have a dog in this fight.
Pewty McPew
EVE Corporation 2357451
#8 - 2013-02-13 22:04:54 UTC
I smell a Goon market manipulation script on the way.......
Whitehound
#9 - 2013-02-13 22:05:32 UTC
It was an official CCP statement regardless of how hard it is to believe.

YOU BETTER BELIEVE THE MAN!!!Twisted

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#10 - 2013-02-13 22:08:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Glathull wrote:
Screegs was pretty clear in the thread you linked. He doesn't want anyone interacting with local files at all. I can see his point. Technically opening a file is modifying it, since the file's metadata has to be updated to reflect the last time it was accessed. So that strict stance is just an extremely literal interpretation of the EULA.

It's not policy to ban people for cache-scraping today. Given the above-mentioned literal approach that Screegs takes on these things, I would take those words to mean exactly what they say. The implication is that the story could change tomorrow, or as soon as CCP gets the cache scraping functionality provided by the API, which is what Screegs said he wanted in the thread you linked to.

So yeah, bottom line is that cache scraping is illegal. But you won't get banned for it. Yet.


While I can certainly also see his point, Sreegs does not make CCP policy by himself (e.g. the EULA), he simply enforces a section of it via his mighty banhammer.

That further contributes to the gray area

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#11 - 2013-02-13 22:15:27 UTC
If you have questions about what is and isn't allowed, you should file a petition.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Pap Uhotih
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2013-02-13 22:20:37 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:


Then CCP Sreegs declares loading cache files to be illegal ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601788#post2601788 )


I read Sreegs offering his own opinion. I dont think it is that confusing that an employee does not need to agree with all the rules, infact the rules should represent a trade off between multiple concerns and will unlikely ever represent any individuals view of perfection.

I think he later went on to say that he would rather information be available through the api which would not be a terrible thing, it seems it is the method that is of concern rather than the information gathered. From Sreegs perspective it would perhaps help him achieve his goals if any interaction with client files was prohibited entirely and I think it good the see him express that, it wouldnt be good if there were CCP employees that diddnt want changes that helped them achieve what they are being paid to do.
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#13 - 2013-02-13 22:24:05 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
The 'Date Last Accessed' time stamp is optional on NTFS file systems.

In Windows 7 it is disabled by default.

http://beingpc.com/2011/04/how-to-enable-time-stamp-in-windows-7/




Not everyone uses NTFS. I wouldn't ever not have time stamps on.


Regardless, I'm not trying to agree or disagree with you. I was trying to help you understand Screegs position based on what he said in the thread you linked to. That opening a file is modifying it under some circumstances was an interpolation of mine to help understand his point of view.

Maybe I was wrong. If so, I think the rest of my post still stands. Arguing with me as though I'm a mouthpiece for CCP is kind of silly.

I'm not here to explain Screegs. I was just trying to help you understand what he said.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon

Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#14 - 2013-02-13 22:28:33 UTC
Palovana wrote:
Glathull wrote:
Screegs was pretty clear in the thread you linked. He doesn't want anyone interacting with local files at all. I can see his point. Technically opening a file is modifying it, since the file's metadata has to be updated to reflect the last time it was accessed. So that strict stance is just an extremely literal interpretation of the EULA.

It's not policy to ban people for cache-scraping today. Given the above-mentioned literal approach that Screegs takes on these things, I would take those words to mean exactly what they say. The implication is that the story could change tomorrow, or as soon as CCP gets the cache scraping functionality provided by the API, which is what Screegs said he wanted in the thread you linked to.

So yeah, bottom line is that cache scraping is illegal. But you won't get banned for it. Yet.


Opening a file is NOT modifying it - if you set noatime on the file system (and I do so to prevent unnecessary SSD writes), the file's inode isn't updated when you access it.

But I don't run a cache scraping program either (though the cache gets SCRAPPED as in deleted before I start the client after every patch).

So I really don't have a dog in this fight.


Okay, so if you're on linux and you set turn off a specific setting for a specific file or if you're on win7 and have never needed to know when a file was created, accessed, or modified then it's possible to open a file without altering the metadata.

Fair enough. But I call those edge cases. Not something so common that you can interpret the terms of an EULA assuming those circumstances.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon

Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#15 - 2013-02-13 22:33:07 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Glathull wrote:
Screegs was pretty clear in the thread you linked. He doesn't want anyone interacting with local files at all. I can see his point. Technically opening a file is modifying it, since the file's metadata has to be updated to reflect the last time it was accessed. So that strict stance is just an extremely literal interpretation of the EULA.

It's not policy to ban people for cache-scraping today. Given the above-mentioned literal approach that Screegs takes on these things, I would take those words to mean exactly what they say. The implication is that the story could change tomorrow, or as soon as CCP gets the cache scraping functionality provided by the API, which is what Screegs said he wanted in the thread you linked to.

So yeah, bottom line is that cache scraping is illegal. But you won't get banned for it. Yet.


While I can certainly also see his point, Screegs does not make CCP policy by himself (e.g. the EULA), he simply enforces a section of it via his mighty banhammer.

That further contributes to the gray area



I think it's a grey area now because there are things preventing him from wielding his hammer. His intent is clearly indicated in the thread. That fact that his intent isn't official policy is something he's also clearly not happy about. So you can bet that Screegs is going to give up on this issue and forget about it or quit or something because he just doesn't care, or you can bet that he is going to arrange things so that official policy reflects his opinion that has been clearly expressed.

Which one of those two things do you think is more likely to happen?

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#16 - 2013-02-13 22:38:01 UTC
I'd just file a petition to be sure.

There does seem to be a difference in point of view as to what should or should not be allowed, at least until the API can provide a more manageable route to get to the same end... but I don't believe policy has changed... yet.

Still, petition it to be sure.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Sid Hudgens
Doomheim
#17 - 2013-02-13 22:43:46 UTC
Is the cache uploader enabled by default in EVEMON? I can't remember. Mine has been on but I've disabled it for now.

If it's on by default ... then you're all banned. Ugh

"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#18 - 2013-02-13 22:50:25 UTC
You presume I use EveMon. I use iClone to manage my skill queue. Yes, really.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Sid Hudgens
Doomheim
#19 - 2013-02-13 22:55:22 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
You presume I use EveMon. I use iClone to manage my skill queue. Yes, really.

-Liang


Yes you are a special and unique snowflake. Obviously I was talking about my fellow mere mortals who are only cool enough to use EveMon.

I apologize for painting you with the same brush. Roll

"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."

Agustice Arterius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#20 - 2013-02-13 23:21:32 UTC
More information on this would be cool.

People are quoting Screegs on reddit as if he is saying stuff like "I want to ban everybody for alt tabbing".

But I mean, that's reddit so...

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