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A Hypothetical Skill Question, Would This Be Fair?

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Azrin Stella Oerndotte
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#41 - 2013-02-12 17:41:01 UTC
Why haven't this thread been locked yet? It's clearly a poorly hidden duplicate.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#42 - 2013-02-12 17:41:49 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
You are being pedantic with this argument over the use of the word mechanic, but if you look at the fundamental logic then both scenarios are exactly the same.
…except in every single way. I'm not being pedantic — I'm being accurate. Your decision to skip over the important bits only manages to make you inaccurate in your description of what's actually happening.

Quote:
If you want to use the word mechanics, then before the mechanic of the mining barge skill was to allow you to progress to fly an orca. The mechanic of the drone interfacing skill is to give your drones 100% extra damage. Both those mechanics were programmed into the game and it cannot be argued that one somehow was not a mechanic of the game before. Any difference is merely superficial.
Still incorrect. The advantage you've skilled for being handed out to all and sundry is not superficial — it's critical. You can choose to ignore that part as much as you like. The fact remains: absolutely nothing is being lost in the Orca change, which is why there is absolutely nothing to reimburse. In your hypothetical example (and in all historical examples) something was lost. Ignoring this fact only ever makes you incorrect and the entire basis for your argument ignorant.


You have misunderstood the original question I posed. In both examples nothing has been lost.

In the drone example, the 100% damage bonus was removed from the skill, and added to all drones as standard. Nothing has been lost and the skill is still useful due to its mining bonus.

In the Mining Barge example the ability to allow you to train for an orca was removed from the skill, and added to the game as standard. Nothing has been lost, and the skill is still useful due to its mining bonus.

See the similarity there? You cannot argue one is right and at the same time the other is wrong.
You haven't yet provided a valid reason why this change would happen. Also you seem to not know, that this skill was already changed from it's original purpose. I accepted the change and didn't cry for my SP back. How odd.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#43 - 2013-02-12 17:43:28 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
In the drone example, the 100% damage bonus was removed from the skill, and added to all drones as standard. Nothing has been lost and the skill is still useful due to its mining bonus.

Yes, but any advantage you had over someone without the skill was removed, necessitating a reimbursement.

Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
In the Mining Barge example the ability to allow you to train for an orca was removed from the skill, and added to the game as standard.

Incorrect. You still have to train Industrial Command Ships, and any other prerequisites, to fly an Orca, but any advantage you have for training Mining Barge has not been removed.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#44 - 2013-02-12 17:43:52 UTC
Azrin Stella Oerndotte wrote:
Why haven't this thread been locked yet? It's clearly a poorly hidden duplicate.

I reported it already, but vOv.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#45 - 2013-02-12 17:47:59 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Incorrect. You still have to train Industrial Command Ships, and any other prerequisites, to fly an Orca
Oh wait. Is that it?!
Has he simply missed the fact that, no, you can't just skill for an Orca straight out of character creation? Ugh
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#46 - 2013-02-12 17:49:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Karl Hobb
Tippia wrote:
Has he simply missed the fact that, no, you can't just skill for an Orca straight out of character creation? Ugh

Man, that would be awesome... Or even better, just being able to fly an Orca when you make a new character, like his hypothetical Drone Interfacing change.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#47 - 2013-02-12 17:50:02 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Your DI example is fundamentally different from what's happening to the Orca — losing an advantage is different from not losing one. Or are you saying that losing an advantage is the same as keeping it?


I'm sorry, you are just not making a coherent argument here. Simply repeating the same mantra to yourself as you are doing does not change this. As I have clearly laid out and gave a rational explanation for, fundamentally both examples given are the same. Simply stating they are not, which is what you are doing, does not show anything.

If you are to be responded to in any further post then please lay out exactly in which ways the two examples are fundametnally different, and this does not include any pedantic wording or superficial reasons, you need to lay out an actual fundamental reason in which the two are different.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#48 - 2013-02-12 17:52:07 UTC
Azrin Stella Oerndotte wrote:
Why haven't this thread been locked yet? It's clearly a poorly hidden duplicate.


Yes, this is what people do when the answer a question gives them is incompatible to their opinion they've already formed. Very sad.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#49 - 2013-02-12 17:52:35 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
As I have clearly laid out and gave a rational explanation for, fundamentally both examples given are the same.

I don't know what fantasy land you live in, but giving an advantage to the entire playerbase that was once given by training a skill is entirely different than removing a prerequisite from a skill.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#50 - 2013-02-12 17:53:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Karl Hobb
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Azrin Stella Oerndotte wrote:
Why haven't this thread been locked yet? It's clearly a poorly hidden duplicate.

Yes, this is what people do when the answer a question gives them is incompatible to their opinion they've already formed. Very sad.

They make new threads seeking different answers to the ones given? That is pretty sad.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#51 - 2013-02-12 17:55:23 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
In the drone example, the 100% damage bonus was removed from the skill, and added to all drones as standard. Nothing has been lost and the skill is still useful due to its mining bonus.

Yes, but any advantage you had over someone without the skill was removed, necessitating a reimbursement.

Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
In the Mining Barge example the ability to allow you to train for an orca was removed from the skill, and added to the game as standard.

Incorrect. You still have to train Industrial Command Ships, and any other prerequisites, to fly an Orca, but any advantage you have for training Mining Barge has not been removed.


Please read again carefully.

""the ability to allow you to train for an orca was removed from the skill""

"the 100% damage bonus was removed from the skill"

If your not understanding basic concepts then it is impossible to take anything you say seriously.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#52 - 2013-02-12 17:58:18 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
""the ability to allow you to train for an orca was removed from the skill""

That was never an ability of the Mining Barge skill.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#53 - 2013-02-12 18:00:53 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
As I have clearly laid out and gave a rational explanation for, fundamentally both examples given are the same.

I don't know what fantasy land you live in, but giving an advantage to the entire playerbase that was once given by training a skill is entirely different than removing a prerequisite from a skill.


This is what you are failing to grasp. Both things are fundamentally the same.

Players trained up mining barge to access the industrial command skill.

Players trained up drone interfacing to access the 100% damage bonus.

After the changes both sets of players both still have them, but that aspect from the skill has been removed and given to the entire player base.

I acknowledge this may be a difficult concept to grasp, but once you do then it logically it is impossible to differentiate between the two examples.
Azrin Stella Oerndotte
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-02-12 18:02:57 UTC
It is difficult to grasp because they are not the same.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#55 - 2013-02-12 18:04:19 UTC
No. No skill reimbursement, No remaps, just no.

Seriously CCP, where are we on docking people who want remaps and skill reimbursements 1 remap?

Dear Player,
Because of your constant posting about wanting SP reimbursement and/or a free remap, we are setting your current remap amount at -1. This will make you eligible to remap in 24 months when your available remap amount goes positive. Further requests for remap and/or reimbursements will be met with further reduction of remaps. Thank you.

Sincerly,

CCP Madeupnamehere.

There. Made the form letter for you. Hard parts done.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#56 - 2013-02-12 18:07:29 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
I'm sorry, you are just not making a coherent argument here.
Again, what part of reality is confusing you?

You have laid out an fundamentally incorrect explanation for why the two examples are the same. Unfortunately, this means that they're not actually the same when you look at how things really work. I have already explained why this is and ignoring or glossing over those differences only makes you ignorant and incorrect in your conclusion. The simple fact remains: the two cases only share one very irrelevant detail: they both entail skill changes. Everything else about them differs — there is no “fundamental sameness” about them.

So let's boil it down for you and see which part of reality you have a problem with.

In one case, you lose an advantage.
In another case, you don't.

That's the difference. That's why one case warrants a reimbursement and the other does not. This is what has caused every instance of reimbursement in the past and why the Orca skill swap does not.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#57 - 2013-02-12 18:09:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Azrin Stella Oerndotte wrote:
It is difficult to grasp because they are not the same.


Ok, lets break this down even further and see if it makes more sense to people.

So the reason that people train a skill is for some given benefit.

That benefit can be in the form of

a) bonuses to in game attributes

b) the ability to unlock further skills

c) the ability to fly ships

All of those are tangible benefits which can be measured.

- In the drone example the DI skill gives the benefit listed in "a"

- In the mining barge example the skill gives the benefit listed in "b"

Both are valid reasons that people train for a skill and that cannot be argued.

In both examples that benefit is being taken away from the skill and handed to everyone in the game. Therefore both examples are fundamentally identical.

I hope this now makes sense. If not then god help us.
Myrissa Kistel
Planetary Logistics
#58 - 2013-02-12 18:10:23 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
As I have clearly laid out and gave a rational explanation for, fundamentally both examples given are the same.

I don't know what fantasy land you live in, but giving an advantage to the entire playerbase that was once given by training a skill is entirely different than removing a prerequisite from a skill.


This is what you are failing to grasp. Both things are fundamentally the same.

Players trained up mining barge to access the industrial command skill.

Players trained up drone interfacing to access the 100% damage bonus.

After the changes both sets of players both still have them, but that aspect from the skill has been removed and given to the entire player base.

I acknowledge this may be a difficult concept to grasp, but once you do then it logically it is impossible to differentiate between the two examples.


So would I owe skill points back to CCP if I only had Drone Interfacing trained to 1? That would suck Sad
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#59 - 2013-02-12 18:11:57 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
After the changes both sets of players both still have them, but that aspect from the skill has been removed and given to the entire player base.

In your DI example, the 100% bonus was also given to people who trained DI to III or IV. The situation with Industrial Command Ships would be similar to your hypothetical if everyone was suddenly able to fly a mining barge at level V.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#60 - 2013-02-12 18:15:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Karl Hobb wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
After the changes both sets of players both still have them, but that aspect from the skill has been removed and given to the entire player base.

In your DI example, the 100% bonus was also given to people who trained DI to III or IV. The situation with Industrial Command Ships would be similar to your hypothetical if everyone was suddenly able to fly a mining barge at level V.


Almost correct, you are slowly getting there but not quite.

So DI III or IV would still be a useful skill as it would give a mining boost to drones, but everyone would get the 100% combat bonus.

Mining barge V would still be useful in so far that you can fly a mining barge, although everyone would get access to industrial command without it.