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[Updated] How to repopulate nullsec - a question for highsec/WH players (and CCP)

First post
Author
Ghoest
#461 - 2011-10-25 20:44:15 UTC
Nulsec is empty because bubbles exist.

The only time people ever went to nulsec in large numbers is when Dominion made it profitable for people to sit in their home system running sanctums.

Nulsec will never be widely populated as long as bubbles exist.

Wherever You Went - Here You Are

Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#462 - 2011-10-25 20:50:15 UTC
Ghoest wrote:
Nulsec is empty because bubbles exist.

The only time people ever went to nulsec in large numbers is when Dominion made it profitable for people to sit in their home system running sanctums.

Nulsec will never be widely populated as long as bubbles exist.


That sir, is not correct. Sure it adds difficulty, but with proper scouting, and safe spots, one could literally roam unhindered through null. This comes with time and experience in null.

besides, if a hulk warps to zero to anything in null without a scout, it deserves to die. There is a teamwork requirement that I find put the residents through a colander and the weak/weakminded get caught.
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
#463 - 2011-10-25 21:21:42 UTC
Gate controls

the dev blogs pointed to a desire to have small groups move more quicky than large groups

... so something on the order is probably in the mix already.

Of course rules will be sticky in terms of giving away for another fleet to get into a pre-loaded system... very sticky indeed... probably needing some new mechanics hence a ways offf.

Worm hole space is essentially gate controlled 0.0 space ... maybe more worm hole space is needed, a new sort of region of 0.0 is created (or a few existing ones converted) is created without fixed gates but worm holes that constantly respawn after imploding and respawn maybe to a random other system in the same region .....every system would have two or three "worm gates" which would create a sort of unkowable maze to venture throught.

The bulk of the holes could vary in size two and have their remaining mass clear to see so people looking for smaller fleet pvp could get some general sense of the maximum that would jump through to them.

I think there are the mechanics in place to role out that sort of thing in a few months. (Probably need to create new space to do it to avoid the polical fallout if you took other peoples space from them by fiat for something that might just end up being a failed test. (you can't really know until you try some of these things and shouldn't really expect to know)

-- its just a matter of using existing features.. wormoles(the portal, not the space behind them), 0.0 sov space and rules, and exposing some info on the wormhole portal not shown before but which must have existed somewhere/

.

MaiLina KaTar
Katar Corp
#464 - 2011-10-25 21:52:08 UTC
Ghoest wrote:
Nulsec is empty because bubbles exist.

The only time people ever went to nulsec in large numbers is when Dominion made it profitable for people to sit in their home system running sanctums.

Nulsec will never be widely populated as long as bubbles exist.

Bubbles are just a symptom. One of many.

Nullsec was never populated in a meaningful way and never will be, because Eve is a realtime strategy game stupidly ignoring many of its genre's well established standards.

With a landscape where alliances of thousands can track and monitor activity of individuals by way of a few clicks on dotlan and a glance at local chat, how can one possibly assume that individuals and relatively small groups will show up in significant numbers?
It's not gonna happen as long as CCP's design leads don't drop the ball on things like local chat i.e. start respecting some of the basic standards of RTS game design.
Phal3n
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#465 - 2011-10-25 22:05:21 UTC
Metal Icarus wrote:
Ghoest wrote:
Nulsec is empty because bubbles exist.

The only time people ever went to nulsec in large numbers is when Dominion made it profitable for people to sit in their home system running sanctums.

Nulsec will never be widely populated as long as bubbles exist.


That sir, is not correct. Sure it adds difficulty, but with proper scouting, and safe spots, one could literally roam unhindered through null. This comes with time and experience in null.

besides, if a hulk warps to zero to anything in null without a scout, it deserves to die. There is a teamwork requirement that I find put the residents through a colander and the weak/weakminded get caught.


You my sir must live in 0.0; I would only add this.

Those who are looking for a safe way to get into null sec where the big scary monster won't eat you, it does not exist, you can follow the path as many others before you but always at a risk. Pilots like me who fly in 0.0, share the excitement that the next gate could hold 20, 30, 100 red's…this is why we do it. The risk and reward is real and not buttered up like it is in High Sec; If I were to request a change (trollers start your engines) to counter pirates in High Sec, place an immediate 24 hour war dec between the corps involved. This would allow for your Corp or Alliance mates to fight back on your behalf … something we already have in 0.0 :o)
For those who are brave, and want to be a part of something that is bigger than themselves, like to jump from planes, or swim in the ocean... Come down and play with the big kids in the deep side of the pool. 0.0 will welcome you with Open Arms ... Unlike high sec corps that players come and go from, in 0.0 your best mate is your wingman; if you win or lose it is due to the efforts of all.

CCP Sound Wave -- it is done. No need to nurf anything now; just fix the long list of broken things in 0.0. Part of the thrill of 0.0 is constant effort required to hold your own, to fight for what you believe, and to belong to a group of people that like to call you friend…( mostly LOL). To Fight to hold something that you believe in, whether right or wrong, in the world, in Eve, this is what we do.
If you continually put restraints how can it truly be a SandBox .... Part of Eve's appeal is the freedom to choose your path. Whether your part of a Major Alliance; or a renter to a Mega Alliance; 0.0 life is what we chose. Those that want to venture in to the deep end - Do. How do you make it more appealing to new players? Let it continue to be free form action. If we wanted scripts we would play W.O.W

Thank you for your time.

Phal3n
betoli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#466 - 2011-10-25 23:17:22 UTC  |  Edited by: betoli
Phal3n wrote:

If you continually put restraints how can it truly be a SandBox .... Part of Eve's appeal is the freedom to choose your path. Whether your part of a Major Alliance; or a renter to a Mega Alliance; 0.0 life is what we chose.


Nice rhetoric.

Eve is a game. Like any game, it has rules. Those rules constrain you in choosing your path, in your own words; "Whether your part of a Major Alliance; or a renter to a Mega Alliance". So big alliance or suck big alliance c**k then. nice. Good rules create choices, not constraints.
betoli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#467 - 2011-10-25 23:33:17 UTC
Diomedes Calypso wrote:
Gate controls

the dev blogs pointed to a desire to have small groups move more quicky than large groups

... so something on the order is probably in the mix already.


Worm hole space is essentially gate controlled 0.0 space ...



Interesting idea

A variation (without the wormhole connotation) would be to do this with a 'recharge time' on gates. Using a gate depletes power by the amount of mass it shifts. A gate recharges with time, in exactly the way the capacitor works (a total capacity and recharge rate), such that a frigate gang can almost always move freely, but some gates seriously impede movement of large gangs of larger ships.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#468 - 2011-10-26 06:04:42 UTC
Maybe this thread is asking the wrong question.

An alternative point of view

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Adelphie
The Lone Wolves.
#469 - 2011-10-26 08:01:12 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Maybe this thread is asking the wrong question.

An alternative point of view


That's a great post linked - When I have a minute I will add some of the suggestions to the OP.

Read this link people - the man has sense.
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#470 - 2011-10-26 09:16:00 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Metal Icarus wrote:
Undo the Sanctum nerf.


What was so abhorrent in the first place as to bring it about?


CCP logic.

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#471 - 2011-10-26 09:52:33 UTC
Nyla Skin wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Metal Icarus wrote:
Undo the Sanctum nerf.


What was so abhorrent in the first place as to bring it about?


CCP logic.


It was a horrible vast ISK fountain.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Ghoest
#472 - 2011-10-26 12:11:49 UTC
Metal Icarus wrote:
Ghoest wrote:
Nulsec is empty because bubbles exist.

The only time people ever went to nulsec in large numbers is when Dominion made it profitable for people to sit in their home system running sanctums.

Nulsec will never be widely populated as long as bubbles exist.


That sir, is not correct. Sure it adds difficulty, but with proper scouting, and safe spots, one could literally roam unhindered through null. This comes with time and experience in null.

besides, if a hulk warps to zero to anything in null without a scout, it deserves to die. There is a teamwork requirement that I find put the residents through a colander and the weak/weakminded get caught.



Learn to think dude.

The fact that you can cope with an issue or that you deem it fair has nothing to do with the reality that the issue drives people away.

Bubbles are the biggest reason normal players dont go to nulsec.

Wherever You Went - Here You Are

Hung TuLo
Running with Dogs
Northern Coalition.
#473 - 2011-10-26 13:00:54 UTC
Ghoest wrote:
Metal Icarus wrote:
Ghoest wrote:
Nulsec is empty because bubbles exist.

The only time people ever went to nulsec in large numbers is when Dominion made it profitable for people to sit in their home system running sanctums.

Nulsec will never be widely populated as long as bubbles exist.


That sir, is not correct. Sure it adds difficulty, but with proper scouting, and safe spots, one could literally roam unhindered through null. This comes with time and experience in null.

besides, if a hulk warps to zero to anything in null without a scout, it deserves to die. There is a teamwork requirement that I find put the residents through a colander and the weak/weakminded get caught.



Learn to think dude.

The fact that you can cope with an issue or that you deem it fair has nothing to do with the reality that the issue drives people away.

Bubbles are the biggest reason normal players dont go to nulsec.




I think you are wrong. Whether its bubbles or stasis webifiers or any other game mechanic tha traps your ships. It is the mechanics of the game. The PVP player that controls the situation is the winner. A bubble might effect NULL at a gate or a station but is not used at other places in a system.

What do you consider normal? Industrialists? Those that are trying to create a profit through trading? PVPers?

Non risk takers?


NULL is not for the faint at heart. NULL has risks and rewards. Learn to adapt to the events that occur. You jump into a bubble? Adapt to that, how do you get out of the bubble and stay alive? Do you even know the limitations of a bubble? Do you know how do deal with one?

Don't tell me that the bubble is the greatest reason why people don't go into null because this shows how ill informed you are. The problem for people is not the bubble, its the safety.








"In space all warriors are cold warriors" ---  General Chang  Star Trek VI

Ghoest
#474 - 2011-10-26 13:52:00 UTC
Hung TuLo wrote:
Ghoest wrote:
Metal Icarus wrote:
Ghoest wrote:
Nulsec is empty because bubbles exist.

The only time people ever went to nulsec in large numbers is when Dominion made it profitable for people to sit in their home system running sanctums.

Nulsec will never be widely populated as long as bubbles exist.


That sir, is not correct. Sure it adds difficulty, but with proper scouting, and safe spots, one could literally roam unhindered through null. This comes with time and experience in null.

besides, if a hulk warps to zero to anything in null without a scout, it deserves to die. There is a teamwork requirement that I find put the residents through a colander and the weak/weakminded get caught.



Learn to think dude.

The fact that you can cope with an issue or that you deem it fair has nothing to do with the reality that the issue drives people away.

Bubbles are the biggest reason normal players dont go to nulsec.




I think you are wrong. Whether its bubbles or stasis webifiers or any other game mechanic tha traps your ships. It is the mechanics of the game. The PVP player that controls the situation is the winner. A bubble might effect NULL at a gate or a station but is not used at other places in a system.

What do you consider normal? Industrialists? Those that are trying to create a profit through trading? PVPers?

Non risk takers?


NULL is not for the faint at heart. NULL has risks and rewards. Learn to adapt to the events that occur. You jump into a bubble? Adapt to that, how do you get out of the bubble and stay alive? Do you even know the limitations of a bubble? Do you know how do deal with one?

Don't tell me that the bubble is the greatest reason why people don't go into null because this shows how ill informed you are. The problem for people is not the bubble, its the safety.










Blaming "safety" is a waste of everyones time. Of course if it was as safe as high sec it would be populated - because then it would just be more high sec.

The point of this thread is why so few people go to nul sec.

Bubbles are a barrier to potential new nulsec players and avoidable by expereinced players they are horrible game design.

New players die at bubble with out feeling like they did anything at all while they were in nulsec. Its one thing to get jumped while doing an activity like ratting. That makes you unhappy but you feel involved. But bubble pretty much just kill people with in their first 2 or 3 jumps into nulsec. They die helplessly and dont come back because it seems like a waste of time.

Wherever You Went - Here You Are

Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#475 - 2011-10-26 14:11:08 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Maybe this thread is asking the wrong question.

An alternative point of view



The best thread about how the game actually stands and how this game could/should be improved.

Risk vs Reward accordingly to the "choice" you do. The big lines are just fine to me.
Hung TuLo
Running with Dogs
Northern Coalition.
#476 - 2011-10-26 14:18:14 UTC
Ok, then everytime a player hits a bubble and dies, they should give up. Don't even consider it again?


By your thinking, If I have a hulk in highsec and a goon decides to kill me. Then I should'nt Mine in a hulk again.

I would say that 75% of the problem is the game mechanics and 25% inexperience. Reduce the automated isk moon generators and force economy in NULL with MIning. Reduce the allowed size of an alliance and corps. Increase the Mining profit in Null.

Maybe there should be NPC corps in NULL as well. just a suggestion.

"In space all warriors are cold warriors" ---  General Chang  Star Trek VI

Ghoest
#477 - 2011-10-26 14:45:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Ghoest
Hung TuLo wrote:
Ok, then everytime a player hits a bubble and dies, they should give up. Don't even consider it again?


By your thinking, If I have a hulk in highsec and a goon decides to kill me. Then I should'nt Mine in a hulk again.

I would say that 75% of the problem is the game mechanics and 25% inexperience. Reduce the automated isk moon generators and force economy in NULL with MIning. Reduce the allowed size of an alliance and corps. Increase the Mining profit in Null.

Maybe there should be NPC corps in NULL as well. just a suggestion.


Look another logic fail.


If you want new people to get involved in nulsec dont put a nooby trap at the entrance.

Wherever You Went - Here You Are

March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#478 - 2011-10-26 15:41:34 UTC
Ghoest wrote:

Bubbles are a barrier to potential new nulsec players and avoidable by expereinced players they are horrible game design.

New players die at bubble with out feeling like they did anything at all while they were in nulsec. Its one thing to get jumped while doing an activity like ratting. That makes you unhappy but you feel involved. But bubble pretty much just kill people with in their first 2 or 3 jumps into nulsec. They die helplessly and dont come back because it seems like a waste of time.

There is a little fix. People don't die BECAUSE of bubbles. People die BECAUSE of other people is waiting near this bubble. Or (such a very rare case) because of NPC rats if you spend too much time to get out.

See what does it mean? It means that not each bubble you found will stop you. Most of a time bubbles are used to prevent people to attack fast from gates to belts or anomalies. So almost 100% of time no one is waiting near to kill newcomer. So you got to bubble, found no one around, got out of bubble and continued to travel.

I don't speak about some "special" 0.0 places where people have like 23.5/7 gate camps and such stuff. These places aren't supposed to be visited by newcomers anyway Cool

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Nomad I
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#479 - 2011-10-26 15:57:56 UTC
I like the 0.0 because it's necessary to organize and to stay focussed to survive. I was in 0.0 since my char was 3 months old. When I was flying the Megathron the first time, I invested all my ISK to be in a large fleet in Delve War I. No bubble, no Titan with Area of effect Weapon or no bad leader could stopp my live in 0.0.

That what the most of you want is nothing more than easy kills being rich without any effort. War is dedication and stay focussed. Most of you failed, when demanding nerfs hitting your enemys. Most of you failed, demanding getting rid of bubbles.

There are some points :

- Strenghen production in 0.0 multiplying the number of slots by 3-10
- Make the 0.0 bigger to give more room to small alliances.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#480 - 2011-10-26 16:04:05 UTC
Yeah it's not the bubbles it's the bubble camps.


One of the best ways to think about it when addressing these issues with people who have KBs full of T1 ships and pods is to get them to admit that they won.

You see, if you are going to kill everything that moves, and few things move after a while, you won! CCP should send you a trophy. What would be on the trophy? I think a little statue of a 300lb teenager standing on a 5 year old kid might work.

And once more, like the high-sec war dec, what would we find if we compared the incidence of legitimate usage compared to how many times it's used to "get kills"? I bet we would find that while a bubble is a strategic tool, and at times tactical, we would find it more often used to trap and kill everything "for the kills". So once again, you abuse the toy, people are going to want to take it away from you .

I don't understand why there is such a disconnect. Eve is after all a game of consequences. And the consequence is that if you camp, blob, and kill everything that is not blue, you will not get around to much killing and blobbing after a while.

As for eliminating bubbles - who knows. They have their use. As I pointed out previously, there is no "chance" in the current setup. People will take chances in a game. Every game is a game of chance. If we didn't have gates we would see as much use of Deep Space probes as we see bubbles. Deep probes are hardly used (Except by bots to peg sites: they go system to system, drop one probe, scan...). Bubbles are all over the place.

If you had to be hunted to be killed, you would have a chance. Bubbles are a tarp. Chances are more attractive than traps.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!