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Mining ships and EVE design philosophy.

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Le Badass
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#121 - 2013-02-11 22:33:20 UTC
Wow, 6 pages of poorly camouflaged ganker tears.
Zol Interbottom
Blimp Requisition Services
#122 - 2013-02-11 23:04:50 UTC
Goons complaining they cant suicide gank easily anymore

BWAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

"If you're quitting for the 3rd time you clearly ain't quitting" - Chribba
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#123 - 2013-02-11 23:16:18 UTC
Zol Interbottom wrote:
Goons complaining they cant suicide gank easily anymore

BWAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA


Le Badass wrote:
Wow, 6 pages of poorly camouflaged ganker tears.


Two fine examples of people who do not read a topic before they post.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#124 - 2013-02-11 23:21:27 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
handige harrie wrote:


It's also not possible to make a profit ganking unfitted abaddons or Rokhs or empty freighters. For most ships it just doesn't work that way.


All frigates, destroyers, cruisers, BC, T3 cruisers, recons, heavy assault ships, interdictors, haulers and even some of the battleships can be ganked for profit if they fit T2 mods with no tank.
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#125 - 2013-02-11 23:32:29 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
handige harrie wrote:


It's also not possible to make a profit ganking unfitted abaddons or Rokhs or empty freighters. For most ships it just doesn't work that way.


All frigates, destroyers, cruisers, BC, T3 cruisers, recons, heavy assault ships, interdictors, haulers and even some of the battleships can be ganked for profit if they fit T2 mods with no tank.

Dont remind people of all the horrid boosting tengus that get killed by a lone tornado that provide enough ISK for the next 10 ganks each of which provide for the next 10 until the poor nado pilot cants see his guns for all the zeroes.

Also baltec it helps if you give values to your hypothetical as right now you are just saying given optimum chances we will make maximum profit.
A completely useless statement.

Saying something like if the value of your fit (not counting ship rig and subsystems) is 5x the cost to gank based on
11k alpha nado @ 130 mil
350 dps gankalyst @ 10 mil capable of applied 8k damage
800 DPS blastos @ 110mil capable of applied 28k damage
600 DPS Brutix gank fit @ 80 mil capable of applied 16k damage
means whether we will gank you, gamble on the risk of failure, or ignore you for your tank
Would be far more useful.

Also are those the right values?
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2013-02-11 23:33:38 UTC
handige harrie wrote:
Seeing the amount of whining in local in Abudban and Hek about untanked retrievers getting killed by destroyers on some days, I don't think op has a point.

Mining barges still die to ganking by people in destroyers.

Stop your whining, it doesn't make any sense.


My point is that CCP did not follow their own design philosophy with respect to mining ships. In their effort to please the howling AFK-miner crowd they decided to hideously buff the EHP off all of the mining ships rendering one of the trade-offs, tank, pointless. Then they decided to make a double mistake by exempting the ore bay from being expanded removing another trade-off, cargo space. Due to those two horrible changes mining ships are literally the only class of ship in which you can "have your cake and eat it too."

Any ship that is T2 fit with NO tank can profitable to gank, why should that not apply to mining ships?

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Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#127 - 2013-02-12 01:00:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
All frigates, destroyers, cruisers, BC, T3 cruisers, recons, heavy assault ships, interdictors, haulers and even some of the battleships can be ganked for profit if they fit T2 mods with no tank.

Devil's advocate - could T2 defensive modules be a lure for potential profit, especially if they were attached to a "weak" exhumer or mining barge? Whereas it may appear as a deterrent, wouldn't a ganker consider a lone Hulk in a 0.5 or 0.6 system, even if "tricked out" for defense on the off-chance any T2 module may survive?
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2013-02-12 01:12:30 UTC
Guttripper wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
All frigates, destroyers, cruisers, BC, T3 cruisers, recons, heavy assault ships, interdictors, haulers and even some of the battleships can be ganked for profit if they fit T2 mods with no tank.

Devil's advocate - could T2 defensive modules be a lure for potential profit, especially if they were attached to a "weak" exhumer or mining barge? Whereas it may appear as a deterrent, wouldn't a ganker consider a lone Hulk in a 0.5 or 0.6 system, even if "tricked out" for defense on the off-chance any T2 module may survive?


As a ganker I would not do so because easier targets are common and the chance of failure is not worth the extra ~1mil from the defensive module drop. Now if they decided to use faction hardeners that's a different story.

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GetSirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#129 - 2013-02-12 01:23:47 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
It never was profitable to gank a WELL FIT Hulk, that traded some measure of "efficiency" for tank. A pre-change T2 fit brick Hulk still mined more than any other ship in the game, and was never profitable to gank.



Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I

Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
'Anointed' I EM Ward Reinforcement

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

this is approx the deterent pre-change hulk tank.

If a combat ship needed two power mods to fit a tank, plus had no remaining slots for any utilities? It would be regarded as a failfit. If as the OP posits that there is a general theme of compromise in Eve, this is not - it is a complete sacrifice.

oh and prove a point:

Covetor
Medium Overlock rig x 2

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

empty mid

Mining Laser Upgrade x 2

this outmined a pre-change tanked hulk. fully insured hull and a third of the price.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2013-02-12 01:26:55 UTC
GetSirrus wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
It never was profitable to gank a WELL FIT Hulk, that traded some measure of "efficiency" for tank. A pre-change T2 fit brick Hulk still mined more than any other ship in the game, and was never profitable to gank.



Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I

Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
'Anointed' I EM Ward Reinforcement

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

this is approx the deterent pre-change hulk tank.

If a combat ship needed two power mods to fit a tank, plus had no remaining slots for any utilities? It would be regarded as a failfit. If as the OP posits that there is a general theme of compromise in Eve, this is not - it is a complete sacrifice.

oh and prove a point:

Covetor
Medium Overlock rig x 2

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

empty mid

Mining Laser Upgrade x 2

this outmined a pre-change tanked hulk. fully insured hull and a third of the price.


You can at least give us the relevant numbers, EHP/Yield/cargo space.

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#131 - 2013-02-12 02:56:00 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

CCP Soundwave made a howler of a statement, that he (quite rightly) never defended when he was called on it.

Because, according to a simple reading of his statement, Freighters should gain more EHP the more ISK they fit into their cargo hold.


Incorrect again. A simple reading of his statement would tell freighters should not be profitable to gank "per se" (that is the bare hull). Exactly what *often* happens for exhumers.


Then by your reading, Exhumers were fine before the buff.

Their bare hull was never profitable to gank. Fit with an appropriate tank fit, they were never profitable to gank. Only when Fit to mine with no tank fit, were they profitable to gank. And even then only in lower security systems.

Show me a link to a profitable suicide gank of an unfit Exhumer. Before or after the buff. You say it happened often, I'm sure you can provide evidence.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#132 - 2013-02-12 03:01:06 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
GetSirrus wrote:
If a combat ship needed two power mods to fit a tank, plus had no remaining slots for any utilities? It would be regarded as a failfit. If as the OP posits that there is a general theme of compromise in Eve, this is not - it is a complete sacrifice.


So you can't mine in that fit? Oh wait, yes you can. There are only 3 important stats for a mining ship (Tank, Yield, Cargo). There are more than 3 important stats for a combat ship. That's why comparisons to combat ships are irrelevant.

I did forget about the effect of the brand-new-at-the-time CPU rigs that did allow the Covetor to eke by the Fully tanked Hulk, but it sacrifices any semblance of tank and I think you'd find you would have a hard time insuring the ~20m worth of T2 modules you'd be holding in your pinata-ey belly.

Almost forgot. A 1 MLU Hulk was plenty tanky enough to be unprofitable to gank in .7 and above. (IIRC it was also right around or just below breakeven in .5).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#133 - 2013-02-12 03:04:12 UTC
GetSirrus wrote:
If a combat ship needed two power mods to fit a tank, plus had no remaining slots for any utilities? It would be regarded as a failfit. If as the OP posits that there is a general theme of compromise in Eve, this is not - it is a complete sacrifice.


So your justification for not fitting a tank was that the extra cargo & yield was worth the risk of losing a 200mil ship? In that case, you wilfully chose that path. The person fitting the tank decided it wasn't worth the risk & ultimately did better than those who were too greedy to fit a tank.

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2013-02-12 04:13:09 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
GetSirrus wrote:
If a combat ship needed two power mods to fit a tank, plus had no remaining slots for any utilities? It would be regarded as a failfit. If as the OP posits that there is a general theme of compromise in Eve, this is not - it is a complete sacrifice.


So your justification for not fitting a tank was that the extra cargo & yield was worth the risk of losing a 200mil ship? In that case, you wilfully chose that path. The person fitting the tank decided it wasn't worth the risk & ultimately did better than those who were too greedy to fit a tank.

So then having a choice but needing that choice to be tank in every slot in order to be a deterrent represents a ship with proper fittings?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#135 - 2013-02-12 05:08:38 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
GetSirrus wrote:
If a combat ship needed two power mods to fit a tank, plus had no remaining slots for any utilities? It would be regarded as a failfit. If as the OP posits that there is a general theme of compromise in Eve, this is not - it is a complete sacrifice.


So your justification for not fitting a tank was that the extra cargo & yield was worth the risk of losing a 200mil ship? In that case, you wilfully chose that path. The person fitting the tank decided it wasn't worth the risk & ultimately did better than those who were too greedy to fit a tank.

So then having a choice but needing that choice to be tank in every slot in order to be a deterrent represents a ship with proper fittings?


Wrong.

A brick tanked Hulk was unprofitable to gank in every reasonable situation (everything's profitable to gank in enough Civvy gun ibises but that's idiotic).

A 1 MLU Hulk was unprofitable to gank in most situations. (And on the bubble in most others, depending on market conditions.)

A 2 MLU Hulk could be unprofitable to gank in many situations.

All are far less profitable than a 2 MLU, No Tank, Cargo Optimized Hulk with a survey scanner and, as such, were ganked less often because it was invariably more profitable to gank the No tank Hulk next to it.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#136 - 2013-02-12 05:48:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
handige harrie wrote:


It's also not possible to make a profit ganking unfitted abaddons or Rokhs or empty freighters. For most ships it just doesn't work that way.


All frigates, destroyers, cruisers, BC, T3 cruisers, recons, heavy assault ships, interdictors, haulers and even some of the battleships can be ganked for profit if they fit T2 mods with no tank.


Didn't read the thread.

Just wondering if you managed to find an excuse yet to post your 'don't carry 10B in the hold ' mantra yet. Sure, it has nothing to do with barges but that never stops you in every other thread.

Mr Epeen Cool
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#137 - 2013-02-12 05:51:22 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
GetSirrus wrote:
If a combat ship needed two power mods to fit a tank, plus had no remaining slots for any utilities? It would be regarded as a failfit. If as the OP posits that there is a general theme of compromise in Eve, this is not - it is a complete sacrifice.


So your justification for not fitting a tank was that the extra cargo & yield was worth the risk of losing a 200mil ship? In that case, you wilfully chose that path. The person fitting the tank decided it wasn't worth the risk & ultimately did better than those who were too greedy to fit a tank.

So then having a choice but needing that choice to be tank in every slot in order to be a deterrent represents a ship with proper fittings?


Wrong.

A brick tanked Hulk was unprofitable to gank in every reasonable situation (everything's profitable to gank in enough Civvy gun ibises but that's idiotic).

A 1 MLU Hulk was unprofitable to gank in most situations. (And on the bubble in most others, depending on market conditions.)

A 2 MLU Hulk could be unprofitable to gank in many situations.

All are far less profitable than a 2 MLU, No Tank, Cargo Optimized Hulk with a survey scanner and, as such, were ganked less often because it was invariably more profitable to gank the No tank Hulk next to it.


Why are you even blathering about profit.

There was never intended to be a profit in ganking. It's not a profession, it's a consequence. If someone annoys you for whatever reason, you gank them.

Mr Epeen Cool
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#138 - 2013-02-12 05:59:19 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Why are you even blathering about profit.

There was never intended to be a profit in ganking. It's not a profession, it's a consequence. If someone annoys you for whatever reason, you gank them.

Mr Epeen Cool


So now you're proposing an ISK-based tank for Freighters?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#139 - 2013-02-12 06:10:38 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Why are you even blathering about profit.

There was never intended to be a profit in ganking. It's not a profession, it's a consequence. If someone annoys you for whatever reason, you gank them.

Mr Epeen Cool


So now you're proposing an ISK-based tank for Freighters?


Could you please repeat that in English?

Because, as usual with you, your responses often have nothing whatsoever to do with what you quote.

Mr Epeen Cool
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#140 - 2013-02-12 06:32:48 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Mr Epeen wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Why are you even blathering about profit.

There was never intended to be a profit in ganking. It's not a profession, it's a consequence. If someone annoys you for whatever reason, you gank them.

Mr Epeen Cool


So now you're proposing an ISK-based tank for Freighters?


Could you please repeat that in English?

Because, as usual with you, your responses often have nothing whatsoever to do with what you quote.

Mr Epeen Cool


My response was just fine, as I've run through this line of discussion before. You simply chose to lack the context to make the response meaningful to you (by not reading the thread).

If ganking is not meant to be profitable, shouldn't you get more tank on your Freighter the more ISK value you pack into it?

If you shouldn't get more tank for filling it with more ISK (thus making it profitable to gank them when their owners are stupid), why should miners who fill their ships with ISK (T2 miners and MLUs without fitting any tanking modules) not be profitable to gank (again, only profitable when the owners are stupid)?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon