Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I know decisions have yet to be made on this, but I feel we can start the discussion on it.

What is expected to happen:

1) CCP is changing the industrial skill requirement to industrial 1 for all indy ships. Meaning a bestower amarr pilot can train Gallente industrial 1, and fly a Iteron V.

Here are "my" concept of these changes:

There really only needs to be 2 types of basic transport ships per race. One that transports Lots of items, but is slow, and one that transports much less, but is much faster.

Here is what should change.

A) Uniform the Hull numbers. All races should have 2 industrial ships (The Gallente lose 3 (Yes 3) hulls, The Minmatar lose 1, the Mammoth, but the Mammoth itself gets re-designated, read below under (ORE Runner).

B) There are to be 2 Classes of Industrial Ships.

1) The Ore Runner
2) The Large Cargo Transport
3) The Runner Transport ship.


1) The Ore Runner is a New Ship created by the ORE company, based off of the Mammoth (It is the Mammoth) to have a massive cargohold for Ores, Minerals, Ice and Compressed Ores. The Ore Runner can transport either Ores and Minerals And Ice AND Compressed Blocks (reprocessed from the ore) in its ore Hull. The ore hull should range between 85,000m3 to 100,000m3. Its Cargo Containing hull runs around 500m3. Slot layout would have to be retrofitted totally, but permit the following. Minimum 2 Highslots, Mediums 2, Lows 2. This ships speed/velocity is inbetween the Large Cargo Transport and the Runner Transport. The tank would be inbetween the Retriever and the Skiff mining barge. This gives these ships a adequate tank for what it is doing, it being mostly a Mining Transport, with a minimal cargohold. This hull would have a +1 warp Scramble strength resistance inherent to it.

Q) Why this ship? This creates two dynamics. For one, this allows for industrial theft, meaning a person could warp to a belt, and steal your jetcan of ore, but the limitation on the cargo hold itself would reduce the threat of people using these to go into missions and stealing your loot. This literally makes a specific ORE ship for hauling.

2) The Large Cargo Transport. Modify the Badger Mark II, the Bestower, The Iteron V and The Hoarder to have, with maxed skills, without expanders or rigs to have approximately 13,000m3 space to haul what it wants. With expanders, they are now just under the amount needed to transport a battleship.

Note: The original thread suggested that trasnport of a battleship is possible, but due to the possible inadvertent issues regarding C1 wormholes and its restriction of battlecruiser and below, the size of the transport has to be reduced to a max of 49,500m3.

Now the big question...

Why so much EHP?

These ships are to have a extremely high Hull armor. The hull armor should round out between 40,000 to 60,000 ehp (originally 100,00 ehp, but changed due to it no longer able to carry a battleship within its hull). The bonus to these ships... inherent Damage Control (Yes it is built into the ship, no activating required, and no it does not stack with the Damage control module. If you DO have a DCU on this ship, the higher/Stronger module will override this ships base DCU). The loadout inherently should look something like this: No high slots, 2 to 3 Mid slots, 2 to 3 low slots. Now this ship, if fitted for pure hauling, comes out to a whopping 49,500m3. If this ship exceeded 50,000m3, there would be issues with it bringing battleships through C1 highsec wormholes.

Now the other-side of the argument... How do I gank this? If you want to, you will have to commit ships similar to what you need to blow up a freighter in highsec (which happens, OFTEN). Highsec Freighter Gank Statistics.

By setting the Damage Control Unit as a inherent skill, this allows for 2 things.
1) Yes you can AFK auto pilot
2) If you do, you can still be blown to bits by a dedicated crew who wants to destroy you and get your shiny stuff. This does not prevent or protect people who load up billions into a hull, then afk autopilot through space.


On the inherent DCU. Inherent damage control is set at a base level of 45% resists, equal to a damage control of a "Basic Damage Control" unit. Which should give your hull approximately 40,000 ehp. The base Hull Armor is equal to 22,000 actual hit points. Tanked out, with 2 bulkheads and 1 active damage control II, brings the ehp to 55,000. The hauler fit for pure space, will its inherent DCU at 45%, have a EHP of 40,000. Having no real ability to repair itself, the ship can survive a single attacker doing 1000 dps, for about 45 seconds. With the active tank and bulheads, your closing in on a minute +. A group of 5 attackers doing 1000 dps on you, your survival time drops down to a whopping 9 seconds of survival. This ship will not be able to slowboat 15km out, to the gate, in 9 seconds, before being blown up by a gang of dedicated gankers. A single person who wants to gank haulers will have to aim more towards going after the Runner Transport Ship (see 2nd post).

Note: As indicated above, these ship has one Huge negative. This ship has a massive reduction to the amount of time it takes a Armor and Shield repairer to repair (aka, it would take upwards of 5 times for the self armor repairer to actually repair). So a medium armor repairer would take 50 seconds to actually cycle, instead of 12 seconds. You are not meant to repair yourself, though if someone outside of this ship decides to repair you.. good going.

A balance of what can be hauled vs what it costs to blow up the industrial is created. The reason for no high slots it to prevent this ship from cloaking in anyway, shape or form (It is a T1 Hauler after all). These are the slowest ships you can fly out of the T1 industrials.

how many of these stpid industrial ship change thread ideas have to be made? post on one of the othr threads and stop cluttering the forum

Is the native size of the cargo hold of an industrial ship not good enough already? My Iteron Mk V pushes well over 30,000 m3 of space. I am certain other pilots can report higher numbers. Add in secure cans and you can extend it even further.

Other ships already have larger ore holds. Namely, the Mackinaw weighing in with 35,000 m3. Is this not enough for you?

And, it is my opinion that anyone who mines with an industrial is not paying attention to the much better options out there.

So, in a word: no.

Thank you.

The concept is to break up the ships from what they do and to give them actual roles. The roll of "Move Stuff", now changes to "Move Specific Stuff in different ways". If you want to be the global mover of everything, you have the Freighters. If you do not want to risk a 1.7 billion isk ship, you now have alternatives.

The Ore Hauler is specific for mineral movement, useful on small mining operations, or for movement of minerals without using a freighter or a Orca. Do you need to use this hauler to jetcan into.. no. Would you use this hauler to move the minerals from the Orca, or Space station, Or POS, over to other areas without having to use something the size of a Orca or Freighter, considering it can move both Minerals and Straight ore? It is an option for those who do not want to field a 700 million isk ship for merely transporting ore (be it in highsec, lowsec, nullsec or wormholes). I do think the ore hold itself would need to be a little higher than I set it at to be attractive though, probably around 100,000 with skills and fitted. Allows people who don't mine to move stuff, or for industrialist to have a alternative way of getting basic minerals without having to contract out a freighter, if they so choose. Or for mining ops a method of moving their haul to and from the field without requiring to slowboat an Orca 10 to 20 jumps just to move ore.

The transport is just that... a transport ship with a huge hold, that is not a freighter, and does not infringe of what the freighter does. Could you do the same in a Orca/Carrer/Rorqual.. yea. Would you want to just to transport some basic stuff around?

The Runner Transport...you need something quickly, or you want to move something that you don't want people to see. Do you risk it.. sure. Do you feel better using it... some would. Do ganker's have a new lovely target that might drop a pot of gold at random with minimal investment because the ships made of tissue paper..sure.

So I am being rude then, to defend the original poster's post! The point that I was making was that Androch was being rude by dismissively and negatively trashing the OP. The OP went out of his way to create a well crafted post that he thought might benefit the game. I appreciate that his ideas might not be to everyone's taste and that similar threads may come around regularly enough, but that is still no reason to try and effectively shut down a thread with such a dismissive comment that added nothing to the debate.

These forums are full of threads and posts that have been debated to death a million times, yet the same topics keep on coming up for discussion time after time, people don't tire of them if they presented in a new and different way like all of the afk cloaking threads out there or the anti-botting threads.

I accept that my response was harsh, but I didn't like Androch's tone, I felt it was abusive and not deserved by the OP, hence the reason why I responded the way I did. It seemed deliberately crafted to cause offence to the OP, yet I am the one getting the fallout for pointing this out. It's not the words it's the tone...

I too feel that industrials need a long overdue look at. Given that mining barges have had a much needed buff resulting in increased ore holds and versatility and that other aspects of the ship classes have been evolved to be more powerful I think that Industrials at the very least should align to warp quicker, have bigger holds and bigger EHP.

As they stand now, the T1 vessels are nothing more than slow, mobile containers. A single jet can holds more than a much larger industrial ship so at the very least hold capacity should be looked at.

I would also like to see more of a defence on these vessels, industrials that can carry drones, have bonuses for Ewar etc would be very welcome.

I'm all for the +1 Warp Scramble strength as this effectively gives each ship a free low slot which is badly needed on the Badger to say the least.

Ok I fed the troll, I humbly apologise. Coming back to the thread I agree that t1 industrials should be versatile and not overpowered but a good start is a bigger general purpose hold and some dedicated subsystems to assist in escape would be nice. Hence the bonus to ewar I suggested and align times. I like the poor mans orca suggestion. Something needs to be done as industrials are now easier to gank than the old mining barges.

Updated the initial post. Realized that there does not need to be 4 different Ore Transport ships.. 1 will do.




Well if you look at haulers presently, they all do the same thing... haul. We mostly go for the one that can haul the most.

Creating types of hauling opens up some gameplay into the decisions of what the hauler makes, and what the other players make. Right now they all do the same thing. You create 3 types (a ore hauler, a transport, and a fast transport), gives people some choices on what they can use.

The Ore Runner, I suspect, would be more widely used than people think. Right now, if you are hauling ore from 1 location to another, you are using a Orca or a Freighter, both top well over 500,000,000 isk. A ore hauler would give players an option for specific transport, that would not require a billion isk of ships and parts to move your happily mined ore over. The estimated stats function for such a vehicle, as oddly enough, there are people out there who actually LIKE to mine (I know a few). A dedicated hauler with a large hold that does not infringe on the other haulers would work out as a viable mechanic.

The reason I went with such a high EHP amount on the Large Cargo Transport is because currently, the haulers are about as tanky as wet tissue paper. The concept isn't to have a hauler that blows up because someone sneazes on it. If you want to destroy it, you will have to commit resources to do it (and not a 3 day destroyer trial alt) to do it. The average ganker per ship, can probably put out between 700 to 1500 dps. It would take about 10 of them a minute to blow-up one of the heavy tank industrials. In lowsec/null, not really an issue, in Highsec I can see it being a problem with the lowbie gankers, but the dedicated people still wouldn't have much of an issue (as I stated in my first post, Freighters get blown up, and they have nearly double the amount of hit points this designed industrial has). Can you afk in it.. yea, is it invincible or ungankable.. not in the least. If a number of 80,000 ehp functions better, so be it. I actually would want a inherent DCU in a ship like this "It is a different idea and more interesting than other concepts". As we all know.. there is no Safe Place in Eve.

I had issues coming up with a competent concept for the Fast Transport. For one, I like the concept of having a non-scannable hull, but I also do not like that the entire hull could be non-scannable (that is for the T2 Blockade runners). Having a switch would make the mechanic clunky, but having 2 holds I believe would be more interesting regarding the ship.

I can probably say that a static/expandable hidden hold could work if its set for 500m3, and the main scannable cargohold of the ship was set at 2500m3, expandable to 15,000. That would keep it as a fast transport, that would not infringe on the Large Cargo Transport. It would become the mainstay of everyday shipments, and the large cargo would be the heavy hitter of the general population, while the freighter would be the mega transports.

Essentially.. we did this.

1) Light Transport (Aka the Fast Transport) (2500m3 hold, 500m3 unscannable hold, tissue paper armor)
2) Medium Transport (The Cargo Transport) (13,000m3, max at 51,000m3, inbetween Battleship and Freighter Armor 80,000)
3) Heavy Transport (The Freighter)
4) Ore Transports (For Mining/Minerals/Industrialists, 100,000m3 ore hold, minimal cargo hold).

I'll clarify the reasoning here because we are talking about several subjects as one topic. So lets break it down.

1) Why do people gank freighters/industrials
2) Why should a industrial have a high ehp, does that reward people for the wrong actions?
3) Giving a ship with high hull hit points, high cargo capacity is overpowered.

1) Why do people gank freighters/industrials. There are two commonly known reasons. The first reason is the anarchist reason.. just to do it as it is fun, heck maybe the guy has a kill right on him, or you are at war with them, and they decided to undock in a Obelisk. Well its his bad day (aka you punish an idiot). The second reason and the more widely adapted one, is economics. This reasoning only applies to highsec, as any hauler caught in low, null, or wormhole is destroyed without a second thought.

People will Scan the Cargo Hold of the hauler, and make a determination. Is what he is hauling valuable enough for me to lose my ship to concord.... If it is, and you believe you can make a profit off of it.. boom, you attack the hauler. The bigger the hauler, the bigger the ship you have to bring. People readily suicide gank freighters with gangs of ships. The only reason they do it is because the freighter itself has a greater worth than all of the ships the people are committing to the suicide gank (aka your idiot afk hauling 2 to 3 billion+ worth of cargo).

Now before we go down this road, realistically, we are talking solely about highsec, and pretty much solely about suicide ganking (aka teaching the person a lesson by suiciding my ship into theirs so that I can take their pretty loot). If you are at war with a corporation and you find one of these ships, I am sure you can take car of business as needed.

If I took a Tornado, and I suicide ganked a Iteron V that was hauling 1 piece of veldspar, it would be a idiotic move by all standards. If I took that Tornado, and suicide ganked a Iteron V that was moving 20 plexes, I would be a hero to us all.

Lets multiply it. If I took a Gang of 10 Tornado, and attempted to suicide gank a Cargo Transport with 60,000 EHP tank, that was hauling 1 piece of veldspar, I would probably kill the Hauler, but the gang would get laughed into oblivion.

Now if I took that same Gang of 10 Tornado's, and attempted to suicide gank a Cargo Transport with 60,000 EHP tank, that was hauling 20 plexes, we'd all be heroes. The investment to blow up the ship was worth it.

Has the change in transport (increasing its EHP to between 60,000 to 100,000 ehp) changed the transporter (the person hauling) at all? Has the person become "smarter"? All this change does is cause the gankers (we are using highsec as an example), to commit more into blowing up a Cargo Transporter, for the potential of getting a higher reward. In the end, the payout would be the same (or higher), you the Ganker would have to commit more to a gank. The person flying the transport ship has been thoroughly punished thinking a 60 to 100,000 EHP tank would protect them.


In regards to the Ore Transport, the concept is to give industrialist a way of transporting such items, without having to fork over 600 to 1.7 billion isk. If you use a Cargo Transporter instead of the Ore transporter, you will be only able to transport Half the Ore, and it would take you longer to do it (as the Cargo Transporter is inherently Slower than the Ore Transporter). The ore Transporter is the intermediary between the Orca and the Transport, allowing for substantially larger amounts of Ore (as well as Ice, minerals, and compressed blocks), to be transported. If it gets blown to bits.. heck its not the end of it all, it was a relatively cheap transportation ship, that has specific roles.

If people want to be "stupid" in there haulers.. by all means let them.

Being able to move a large amount of ore around SHOULD carry a hefty price.