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Is a viable pvp MISSILE BATTLESHIP too much to ask for?
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Zaq Phelps
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-02-10 15:47:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Zaq Phelps
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
A1C Jericho wrote:
Actually i am not "complaining" as you put it , but while a Drake pilot for example would be wanted/needed in
a gang/fleet, would the same be applied for a Raven pilot in BS fleet/gang ?


I too make it a regular habit to turn down 1500 DPS Ravens from my fleets.

-Liang

Ed: I also turn down Scorpions and Phoons. Man, **** those missile ships. All missile ships are terrible.



1500 whatnow....?


Flight of Ogres, torp launcher II's, rage torps, perfect skills, RL-1005 implant, TD-605 implant, overheat. -1640dps. Even includes a MWD, scrambler, web, target painter and 78k ehp.

[New Setup 1]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
Torpedo Launcher II,Scourge Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II,Scourge Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II,Scourge Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II,Scourge Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II,Scourge Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II,Scourge Rage Torpedo
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Drones_Active=Ogre II,3
Implant_Active=Zainou 'Snapshot' Torpedoes TD-605
Implant_Active=Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005

Crash booster would probably help, but I haven't really gotten into using them. Liang also probably has a better fit laying around (since I just threw this together to show that yes it is quite probable and not anymore expensive than running around in a faction battleship or tengu). Also my battleship alt can fly this with less than perfect skills at 1572 dps... so definetly doable. I didn't even add faction BCU's.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#22 - 2013-02-10 17:19:53 UTC
Problem is that "missile battleship" by default means Caldari, and Caldari, by default, means shield tanking. While I'm sure everyone has their "special exception" magical fittings to share, generally speaking people prefer armor tanking to shield tanking in PvP because that lets them get the most out of their mana potions er I mean cap boosters.

So it's not that it can't be done, it's just that most people are fixated on "what everyone else does" and can't bothered with anything different.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-02-10 18:26:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Falin Whalen
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Problem is that "missile battleship" by default means Caldari, and Caldari, by default, means shield tanking. While I'm sure everyone has their "special exception" magical fittings to share, generally speaking people prefer armor tanking to shield tanking in PvP because that lets them get the most out of their mana potions er I mean cap boosters.

So it's not that it can't be done, it's just that most people are fixated on "what everyone else does" and can't bothered with anything different.



AHEM! Care to revise your statement?

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#24 - 2013-02-10 18:49:25 UTC
Zaq Phelps wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
A1C Jericho wrote:
Actually i am not "complaining" as you put it , but while a Drake pilot for example would be wanted/needed in
a gang/fleet, would the same be applied for a Raven pilot in BS fleet/gang ?


I too make it a regular habit to turn down 1500 DPS Ravens from my fleets.

-Liang

Ed: I also turn down Scorpions and Phoons. Man, **** those missile ships. All missile ships are terrible.



1500 whatnow....?


Flight of Ogres, torp launcher II's, rage torps, perfect skills, RL-1005 implant, TD-605 implant, overheat. -1640dps. Even includes a MWD, scrambler, web, target painter and 78k ehp.

[New Setup 1]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
Torpedo Launcher II,Scourge Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II,Scourge Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II,Scourge Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II,Scourge Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II,Scourge Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II,Scourge Rage Torpedo
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Drones_Active=Ogre II,3
Implant_Active=Zainou 'Snapshot' Torpedoes TD-605
Implant_Active=Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005

Crash booster would probably help, but I haven't really gotten into using them. Liang also probably has a better fit laying around (since I just threw this together to show that yes it is quite probable and not anymore expensive than running around in a faction battleship or tengu). Also my battleship alt can fly this with less than perfect skills at 1572 dps... so definetly doable. I didn't even add faction BCU's.


That's a pretty god damb expensive PvP fit. If you need 300M worth of faction damage mods to make it fit and deliver the DPS, plus even more than that in implants, and even then you're not going to deliver full DPS to anything that can't outrun a fat heavy raven then military experts are saying why not just bring a Moros and have done with it?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-02-10 19:29:30 UTC
Still, interesting to see its possible.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-02-10 22:37:28 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Malcanis wrote:
Zaq Phelps wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
A1C Jericho wrote:
Actually i am not "complaining" as you put it , but while a Drake pilot for example would be wanted/needed in
a gang/fleet, would the same be applied for a Raven pilot in BS fleet/gang ?


I too make it a regular habit to turn down 1500 DPS Ravens from my fleets.

-Liang

Ed: I also turn down Scorpions and Phoons. Man, **** those missile ships. All missile ships are terrible.



1500 whatnow....?


Flight of Ogres, torp launcher II's, rage torps, perfect skills, RL-1005 implant, TD-605 implant, overheat. -1640dps. Even includes a MWD, scrambler, web, target painter and 78k ehp.

[New Setup 1]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
Torpedo Launcher II,Scourge Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II,Scourge Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II,Scourge Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II,Scourge Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II,Scourge Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II,Scourge Rage Torpedo
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Drones_Active=Ogre II,3
Implant_Active=Zainou 'Snapshot' Torpedoes TD-605
Implant_Active=Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005

Crash booster would probably help, but I haven't really gotten into using them. Liang also probably has a better fit laying around (since I just threw this together to show that yes it is quite probable and not anymore expensive than running around in a faction battleship or tengu). Also my battleship alt can fly this with less than perfect skills at 1572 dps... so definetly doable. I didn't even add faction BCU's.


That's a pretty god damb expensive PvP fit. If you need 300M worth of faction damage mods to make it fit and deliver the DPS, plus even more than that in implants, and even then you're not going to deliver full DPS to anything that can't outrun a fat heavy raven then military experts are saying why not just bring a Moros and have done with it?


The price compliments the amount of fail in that lulz km waiting to happen...Lol
ACE McFACE
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#27 - 2013-02-10 22:49:21 UTC
Zaq Phelps wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
A1C Jericho wrote:
Actually i am not "complaining" as you put it , but while a Drake pilot for example would be wanted/needed in
a gang/fleet, would the same be applied for a Raven pilot in BS fleet/gang ?


I too make it a regular habit to turn down 1500 DPS Ravens from my fleets.

-Liang

Ed: I also turn down Scorpions and Phoons. Man, **** those missile ships. All missile ships are terrible.



1500 whatnow....?


Flight of Ogres, torp launcher II's, rage torps, perfect skills, RL-1005 implant, TD-605 implant, overheat. -1640dps. Even includes a MWD, scrambler, web, target painter and 78k ehp.

[New Setup 1]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
Torpedo Launcher II,Scourge Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II,Scourge Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II,Scourge Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II,Scourge Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II,Scourge Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II,Scourge Rage Torpedo
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Drones_Active=Ogre II,3
Implant_Active=Zainou 'Snapshot' Torpedoes TD-605
Implant_Active=Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005

Crash booster would probably help, but I haven't really gotten into using them. Liang also probably has a better fit laying around (since I just threw this together to show that yes it is quite probable and not anymore expensive than running around in a faction battleship or tengu). Also my battleship alt can fly this with less than perfect skills at 1572 dps... so definetly doable. I didn't even add faction BCU's.

Why have that when you can have more DPS and a more expensive ship!
[Vindicator, MEGA DPS]

Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Damage Control II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
Estamel's Modified Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Estamel's Modified Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Tobias' Modified 100MN Microwarpdrive

Cormack's Modified Neutron Blaster Cannon, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge L
Cormack's Modified Neutron Blaster Cannon, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge L
Cormack's Modified Neutron Blaster Cannon, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge L
Cormack's Modified Neutron Blaster Cannon, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge L
Cormack's Modified Neutron Blaster Cannon, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge L
Cormack's Modified Neutron Blaster Cannon, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge L
Cormack's Modified Neutron Blaster Cannon, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge L
Cormack's Modified Neutron Blaster Cannon, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge L

Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Large Core Defense Field Extender II


Ogre II x5

2287 DPS. Better than a Raven

Now, more than ever, we need a dislike button.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#28 - 2013-02-10 23:25:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
ACE McFACE wrote:

Why have that when you can have more DPS and a more expensive ship!
[Vindicator, MEGA DPS]

Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Damage Control II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
Estamel's Modified Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Estamel's Modified Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Tobias' Modified 100MN Microwarpdrive

Cormack's Modified Neutron Blaster Cannon, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge L
Cormack's Modified Neutron Blaster Cannon, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge L
Cormack's Modified Neutron Blaster Cannon, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge L
Cormack's Modified Neutron Blaster Cannon, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge L
Cormack's Modified Neutron Blaster Cannon, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge L
Cormack's Modified Neutron Blaster Cannon, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge L
Cormack's Modified Neutron Blaster Cannon, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge L
Cormack's Modified Neutron Blaster Cannon, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge L

Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Large Core Defense Field Extender II


Ogre II x5

2287 DPS. Better than a Raven


Amusingly you will lose that to a CNR.

-Liang

Ed: For the record, you can get 1400-1600 DPS out of a T2 fit Raven with no implants at all. So all this bullshit because someone threw up a faction fit Raven is utter nonsense.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
ChaseX
The Executives
#29 - 2013-02-11 07:58:26 UTC  |  Edited by: ChaseX
why can't people start to see things in their context? missiles are king in pve so maybe they are intended to "suck" in pvp. even though they are not as bad as some people might think.

regarding the "you need lots of webs etc." statement: how many slots on a turret boat are occupied with tracking mods? how many slots on a missile boat are occupied with webs / painters? roughly the same.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-02-11 08:54:02 UTC
Missiles aren't bad in PvP,

Large missiles are hard to use, now as far as I can remember CCP acknowlaged the problem with Cruise missiles, they are now reballancing Battlecruiser and the hammered the Heavy missile, I expect them to take a look at the larger missiles with the reballence of the battleships. If it will become anything you hope for remains to be seen, though making the guided missile skill efect the torps certanly helped.

So I'd sit tight and await the summer update.
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2013-02-11 10:23:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Valleria Darkmoon
A1C Jericho wrote:
I never said missile ships are terrible, read the original post carefully, i only wanted to point out that there isn't a BS missile platform that can perform this role as effectively or perhaps "easily" as a cruiser / frigate missile platform, while other weapon systems can do this transition more effectively in their line of ships.


Not really sure what you mean here, those smaller weapons systems apply the damage well to targets the same size or larger than themselves and the same is true of a torp battleship. How often do you see battleships floating around in small gangs these days though? Small gang is important though because as stated already missiles frequently perform better in small gangs than giant fleets.

If you think a HAM Caracal for example can apply a lot of damage to a frigate, I have a video from last night I can upload raw to youtube for you. I get primaried by two HAM Caracals, a Scythe (granted it's only one launcher to appear on mails and shame on the pilot for that) and a Blackbird, not great missile dps by any stretch but not zero either. I'm flying a dual rep Incursus which I brought specifically because I knew what I was getting into and as it turns out I was overcautious, even with all the drones on me (The Scythe had damage drones as well, making that single launcher kind of redundant for km spamming) I tanked it on one rep without even breaking a sweat AND I wasn't even linked. Heavy missiles I might have needed that second rep and rapid lights I would have been instantly killed, but that's lights vs. frigate at that point.

ED: Watching the footage back I was target painted the entire fight as well. 44 damage per full missile volley.

Torps do fit this general trend in missiles it's just easier to see because the number of ships they have a hard time applying damage to is much greater than for smaller missiles and they have a hard time applying damage to a lot of the ships you see more frequently.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Denuo Secus
#32 - 2013-02-11 10:50:41 UTC
Torp BSs do frig class damage to frigates. So when fighting a frig in a torp BS (worst case) you basically get a frig vs. frig fight while one of both "frigs" has BS tank, cap and utility. Doesn't sound that bad to me tbh.

Sure...a torp BS cannot blap said frig. But at the same time this BS will never be completely useless against frigs orbiting under large turrets. With growing numbers turret BSs become better because of positioning. At least one of them should have zero transversal. Also: instant damage.

By this logic missile BSs are true (very) small gang ships! Big smile
Oska Rus
Free Ice Cream People
#33 - 2013-02-11 11:48:21 UTC
typhoon. :D 4xtorps, 4x650mm, web, scram, TP, armour tank.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-02-11 14:19:55 UTC
A1C Jericho wrote:
Hi all i am quite new at this (game & forums) and i apologize in advance if there's been a topic regarding this matter posted before... but while i keep reading and searching about this, i realize that beside the already viable Caldari ships ( Drake, Tengu and so on ) there is a "hole" in the battleship line of ships that can use missiles effectively for pvp!

I would like to hear opinions or advice regarding this from more seasoned veterans of the game.

Thx!



As soon as you start getting on BS sized Missiles you better train that Target Painter skill, fit at least one and have good drone skills (to kill tacklers), if you don't use or don't want to use at least one TP, forget about it.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-02-11 14:22:41 UTC
Oska Rus wrote:
typhoon. :D 4xtorps, 4x650mm, web, scram, TP, armour tank.



Awesome with top skills however this means top gunnery skills and missile skills+drones, not sure at all this is what OP needs.
Seems he's calamari so add on top armor skills to use that "thing" properly.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Otrebla Utrigas
Iberians
#36 - 2013-02-11 14:41:50 UTC
Torp raven is a nice small gang ship. More like an oversized HAM Drake. Just let your friends tackle and web (daredevils or rapiers are OK for that) and with your painter (usually 2X painters) you will apply almost full damage to BC and BS range, and good damage to cruisers.

The problem is, most of the time 2 bombers have the same DPS and three times the range, while retaining frig speed and GTFO capabilities in case something goes wrong. Most of the time I use Manticores, but sometimes I bring the big fat ass to the party.

But as a heavy DPS/Anchor in small BC fleets is quite good.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-02-11 15:13:16 UTC
Gal'o Sengen wrote:
The problem is more that there's only two Tech 1 Missile Battleship hulls, compared to like a Dozen Turret ones. Torpedoes desperately need more range though. At least 35km.


Mine have... Oh wait, Golem. Sry I tend to forget that.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
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