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Mining ships and EVE design philosophy.

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March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2013-02-11 05:33:22 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
La Nariz wrote:

Those are the points I don't agree with. The profitability of ganking was tied to the market just the same as the profitability of mining. Granted you shouldn't be making a profit off of ganking completely unfitted hulls, the income amount of that activity should be tied to RNG. In that situation sometimes you will win and sometimes you will lose. The ganking of people that chose to go for yield at expense of tank should be profitable though. The person decided to risk it all for the maximum reward part of maximizing the risk should be that you can be profitably ganked if you are not playing smart. How profitable is arbitrary and I'm not going to argue numbers.

We can extend this idea to mission runners/ratters/T2 fit combat ships. The dude who active tanks their faction or officer mission running/ratting tengu is in the same boat as the max yield miner. They have virtually no tank without activating his hardeners so if caught unaware they're going to die. They both maxed their reward but also maximized their risk.

We can extend your idea to suicide gankers. The dude who dedicates all the fitting for max DPS and puts 1 round of ammo into each gun....
His maximized his reward but also maximized his risk.

EWAR/tank/whatever? NOPE

Do they profitable to gank? Not sure.

Result: your idea can't be applied to every situation.


Suicide ganking a Tier 3 BC is profitable.

you mean suicide ganker is in tier 3?

OK. But mostg of gankers use T1 fitted Catalysts

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2013-02-11 05:34:00 UTC
March rabbit wrote:

We can extend your idea to suicide gankers. The dude who dedicates all the fitting for max DPS and puts 1 round of ammo into each gun....
His maximized his reward but also maximized his risk.

EWAR/tank/whatever? NOPE

Do they profitable to gank? Not sure.

Result: your idea can't be applied to every situation.


Let's apply it to this situation. Assume a T2 fit catalyst, it has:

[Catalyst, PVP - Suicide Gank]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Ship Scanner I
Limited 1MN Afterburner I

Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S

Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
[empty rig slot]

Hobgoblin II x1

3,848 EHP and 600~ dps. This is my fit I used for ganking so your mileage may vary.

It's fit for all gank and no tank, you could probably alpha it with a rupture if you wanted to. Remember the suicide ganker's risk is not "will the ship survive" it's "what will drop." Should you gank the above you most certainly could profit off of it.

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#63 - 2013-02-11 05:37:33 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Suicide ganking a Tier 3 BC is profitable.

you mean suicide ganker is in tier 3?

OK. But mostg of gankers use T1 fitted Catalysts


I mean exactly what I said. You can profitably gank a T2 fit Tier 3 BC. According to the logic of CCP, Tier 3 BC's need an EHP buff.

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#64 - 2013-02-11 05:47:27 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Suicide ganking a Tier 3 BC is profitable.

you mean suicide ganker is in tier 3?

OK. But mostg of gankers use T1 fitted Catalysts


I mean exactly what I said. You can profitably gank a T2 fit Tier 3 BC. According to the logic of CCP, Tier 3 BC's need an EHP buff.


Just like Hulk-Fit Zealots.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#65 - 2013-02-11 05:49:44 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Suicide ganking a Tier 3 BC is profitable.

you mean suicide ganker is in tier 3?

OK. But mostg of gankers use T1 fitted Catalysts


I mean exactly what I said. You can profitably gank a T2 fit Tier 3 BC. According to the logic of CCP, Tier 3 BC's need an EHP buff.


Just like Hulk-Fit Zealots.


How many tears can a hulk fitted zealot harvest?
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#66 - 2013-02-11 06:10:58 UTC
The problem is not, that it takes more destroyers to kill a mining barge. The problem is also not, that they are not profitable to gank for an income. Now you need to have a goal to accomplish in order to make ganking them profitable. That's a good thing.

The real problem is, that there are well known players out there, who believe that afk or solo miners are cooperating or socializing while they mine.

Remove standings and insurance.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#67 - 2013-02-11 06:33:05 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Suicide ganking a Tier 3 BC is profitable.


So why aren't autopiloting T3 BCs ganked in Uedama? What about the T2 & faction gank-fit Oracle that I regularly autopilot through Uedama with a hold full of faction crystals? Why isn't that ganked?

Why aren't mining ships continually moving? Could it be that setting up bookmarks and navigating between them is simply so much effort that the actively playing pilot is going to be better rewarded running missions, incursions or even hauling contracts rather than staring at rocks?

Perhaps it's simply the case that Goonswarm isn't posting a 10M bounty on every Oracle killed?

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#68 - 2013-02-11 06:45:09 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Suicide ganking a Tier 3 BC is profitable.


So why aren't autopiloting T3 BCs ganked in Uedama? What about the T2 & faction gank-fit Oracle that I regularly autopilot through Uedama with a hold full of faction crystals? Why isn't that ganked?

Why aren't mining ships continually moving? Could it be that setting up bookmarks and navigating between them is simply so much effort that the actively playing pilot is going to be better rewarded running missions, incursions or even hauling contracts rather than staring at rocks?

Perhaps it's simply the case that Goonswarm isn't posting a 10M bounty on every Oracle killed?


So protecting stupid people who make stupid choices is a game balance goal now?

Being active and intelligent let you safely run in a tankless setup for maximum income. Being inactive and intelligent let you run a tanked setup for slightly less income, but no need to be active.

You're arguing that an inactive idiot who takes no precautions to protect himself should be unprofitable to gank (and thus exactly as safe as the other two guys and make a higher income than the second guy).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#69 - 2013-02-11 06:57:19 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

The problem is that, with no effort whatsoever by the miner, they are unprofitable to gank (and thus unlikely to be ganked). Unlike any other fitted T2 ship (fit with guns, damage mods, no tank, just like the average Mack).

Before the silly EHP buff, miners could actually put time and effort into keeping themselves safe, or put neither in and roll the dice.


Incorrect statement, as usual.

Untanked Mack has 11625 hit points.
Before the buff they were usually attacked by 2-3 catalysts and it was profitable.

Now how many catalysts are needed say in 0.7 to kill it? What about 0.5 sec? Still unprofitable?

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ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#70 - 2013-02-11 07:09:59 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD LackOfFaith
Thread cleaned up according to the following rules:

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Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#71 - 2013-02-11 07:49:02 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD LackOfFaith
Snipped discussion of moderation. Please refer to the post below. -- ISD LackOfFaith

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ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#72 - 2013-02-11 07:54:49 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD LackOfFaith
Just a reminder:

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#73 - 2013-02-11 08:13:03 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Incorrect statement, as usual.

Untanked Mack has 11625 hit points.
Before the buff they were usually attacked by 2-3 catalysts and it was profitable.

Now how many catalysts are needed say in 0.7 to kill it? What about 0.5 sec? Still unprofitable?


Yes.

The mack is the problem ship as the hulk, coveter and retriever are all profitable to gank if they are untanked. The mack is not profitable even without a tank and when coupled with the largest ore bay we see the reason why it is the most popular barge on the market and why ganking of exhumers is at an all time low. Changes do need to happen because right now the barge lineup is broken and the goals of teircide have not been met.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2013-02-11 08:14:13 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
March rabbit wrote:

We can extend your idea to suicide gankers. The dude who dedicates all the fitting for max DPS and puts 1 round of ammo into each gun....
His maximized his reward but also maximized his risk.

EWAR/tank/whatever? NOPE

Do they profitable to gank? Not sure.

Result: your idea can't be applied to every situation.


EWAR would have worked great to disrupt gankers. So would a 650mm Nado (takes 2 volleys just like 800s, but better tracking and higher ROF).

The Suicide Ganker maximised his risk by fitting no ECCM or Tank. Everybody knew that they fit no ECCM or Tank, and the GCC mechanics mean that the defender (with ECM or DPS) doesn't need to worry about losing their ship.

ECM Drones would commonly keep an awake Hulk pilot from being blown up.

In addition, the Suicide Ganker has a guaranteed loss of his ship, meaning that a bad loot drop can easily make a gank unprofitable even if everything else went perfectly.

it's all OK but you didn't answer to my question.

Miner: fits for max REWARD, min TANK. Should be profitable to suicide gank? You say: YES.
Suicide ganker: fits for max REWARD (DPS), no TANK. Should it be be profitable to suicide gank?

You right, ganker loses his ship anyway. But this is outside of question about Eve Online fitting ideology "trade off". Either we use this ideology or not.
You accuse miners for ignoring it. But we have suicide gankers who does not have such "trade offs".

At the end i don't think we should point fingers to miners for ignoring "fitting trade offs" unless whole suicide ganking works outside of this ideology (which is THE MAIN fitting ideology of Eve Online)

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#75 - 2013-02-11 08:15:42 UTC
March rabbit wrote:

it's all OK but you didn't answer to my question.

Miner: fits for max REWARD, min TANK. Should be profitable to suicide gank? You say: YES.
Suicide ganker: fits for max REWARD (DPS), no TANK. Should it be be profitable to suicide gank?

You right, ganker loses his ship anyway. But this is outside of question about Eve Online fitting ideology "trade off". Either we use this ideology or not.
You accuse miners for ignoring it. But we have suicide gankers who does not have such "trade offs".

At the end i don't think we should point fingers to miners for ignoring "fitting trade offs" unless whole suicide ganking works outside of this ideology (which is THE MAIN fitting ideology of Eve Online)


Ganking boats are profitable to gank.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2013-02-11 08:21:52 UTC
La Nariz wrote:

Let's apply it to this situation. Assume a T2 fit catalyst, it has:
...
3,848 EHP and 600~ dps. This is my fit I used for ganking so your mileage may vary.

It's fit for all gank and no tank, you could probably alpha it with a rupture if you wanted to.

that's interesting because all ganker wrecks i've seen contained T1 modules only. However i can agree: should you use T2 modules it can be profitable to gank you.

La Nariz wrote:

Remember the suicide ganker's risk is not "will the ship survive" it's "what will drop." Should you gank the above you most certainly could profit off of it.

i will just repeat: question was "fitting trade offs" and "fit without tank should be profitable to gank". It's not about victim losses or ganking "risks". It is only about drop. Miners gankers have drop from T2 modules + T2 ship (these days it is T1 ships). And if you gank suicide ganker you will get drop from T1 ship + (mostly) T1 modules.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Josef Djugashvilis
#77 - 2013-02-11 08:27:45 UTC
Perhaps Exhumer gankers are still upset that they cannot just use a Destroyer to earn a good profit and they have moved onto something else to make 'easy' isk.

Anyway, if more folk are mining as it is now safer, surely we all gain as the resulting fall in mineral prices will mean cheaper ships for pvp?

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#78 - 2013-02-11 08:41:06 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Suicide ganking a Tier 3 BC is profitable.


So why aren't autopiloting T3 BCs ganked in Uedama? What about the T2 & faction gank-fit Oracle that I regularly autopilot through Uedama with a hold full of faction crystals? Why isn't that ganked?

Why aren't mining ships continually moving? Could it be that setting up bookmarks and navigating between them is simply so much effort that the actively playing pilot is going to be better rewarded running missions, incursions or even hauling contracts rather than staring at rocks?

Perhaps it's simply the case that Goonswarm isn't posting a 10M bounty on every Oracle killed?


Because there's a freighter behind you with 30bil worth of loot in it's hold & Oracles don't require Technetium to make. Why would we post an open bounty on something that we won't benefit from?

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#79 - 2013-02-11 08:41:59 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Anyway, if more folk are mining as it is now safer, surely we all gain as the resulting fall in mineral prices will mean cheaper ships for pvp?


For the most part, we don't care if ships cost more. It's the miners that care for some odd reason.

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#80 - 2013-02-11 08:43:45 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Perhaps Exhumer gankers are still upset that they cannot just use a Destroyer to earn a good profit and they have moved onto something else to make 'easy' isk.



More along the lines that there is nothing we can use to make a profit on ganking macks and the lineup of the barges being unbalanced meaning the teircide failed.