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Mining ships and EVE design philosophy.

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#41 - 2013-02-11 04:35:22 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
We can extend this idea to mission runners/ratters/T2 fit combat ships. The dude who active tanks their faction or officer mission running/ratting tengu is in the same boat as the max yield miner.


Not even close. If the max yield miner was fitting officer modules, sure. The profit for ganking a T2 fit ship should not be enough to cover the cost of ganking it.

Well, unless you wanted to encourage people to engage in more PvP, at which point I'm all for it. But make that happen across the board. Until it's profitable to gank the T2 fit Abaddon, why should it be profitable to gank the T2 fit exhumer?

You gankers want to have your cake and eat it too.


The abaddon is a battle ship. You argument is only valid for ganking a skiff. You should look up heavy interdictor/heavy assault ship for T2 version of the intended cruiser EHP target for mack/hulk. Can you profitably gank those if fit in T2 for full gank to compare with full yield?

Faction fit should be profitable just like any idiot sporting that meta 4 Aoede Mining laser upgrade selling for 750 million in Jita.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#42 - 2013-02-11 04:44:35 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Mara Rinn wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
We can extend this idea to mission runners/ratters/T2 fit combat ships. The dude who active tanks their faction or officer mission running/ratting tengu is in the same boat as the max yield miner.


Not even close. If the max yield miner was fitting officer modules, sure. The profit for ganking a T2 fit ship should not be enough to cover the cost of ganking it. Now if there were officer strip miners to go with those extremely rare high-meta MLUs, I'm sure you'd see some fools try to use them. I have no complaints about gankers making a profit from the foolishness of others.

Of course making a T2 fit ship a profitable ganking prospect would encourage people to engage in more PvP, at which point I'm all for it. But make that happen across the board. Until it's profitable to gank a T2 fit HAC, why should it be profitable to gank the T2 fit exhumer?

You gankers want to have your cake and eat it too.


So, what you're saying is: The Zealot needs a massive EHP buff?

The equivalent Mackinaw fit is unprofitable to gank in most situations. This Zealot is quite profitable to gank in almost all situations. But hey, ganking a T2 fit ship should not generate enough revenue to cover the cost of ganking it, right? So Zealots clearly need a buff. (I can do this with just about Every T2 cruiser). And, by the way, the T2 salvage off of a Hulk is a big part of it, so remember, it's a T2 fit, T2 ship.

It never was profitable to gank a WELL FIT Hulk, that traded some measure of "efficiency" for tank. A pre-change T2 fit brick Hulk still mined more than any other ship in the game, and was never profitable to gank.

[Zealot, IMA HULK]

Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script

Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II

[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2013-02-11 04:49:00 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
We can extend this idea to mission runners/ratters/T2 fit combat ships. The dude who active tanks their faction or officer mission running/ratting tengu is in the same boat as the max yield miner.


Not even close. If the max yield miner was fitting officer modules, sure. The profit for ganking a T2 fit ship should not be enough to cover the cost of ganking it. Now if there were officer strip miners to go with those extremely rare high-meta MLUs, I'm sure you'd see some fools try to use them. I have no complaints about gankers making a profit from the foolishness of others.

Of course making a T2 fit ship a profitable ganking prospect would encourage people to engage in more PvP, at which point I'm all for it. But make that happen across the board. Until it's profitable to gank a T2 fit HAC, why should it be profitable to gank the T2 fit exhumer?

You gankers want to have your cake and eat it too.


I gave the example of the faction/officer fit because it is the most memorable for me. You can profit off of ganking T2 fit active tanked tengus as well. If the HAC/HIC/Recon/Logi decides to select something other than tank and sit there unawares then yes it should be possible to profitably gank them.

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#44 - 2013-02-11 04:49:11 UTC
For those discussing the size of tank and fittings these ships should have, consider that the Covetor/Hulk is closer to battle-cruiser than cruiser in size, while the Procurer/Skiff is closer to cruiser in size.

The Moa (a cruiser) has 1800-odd shield HP, 5% bonus to shield resistance per level, 4 low slots, 4 mid slots, 780PG. The Hulk has 1500-odd shield HP, 5% bonus to shield resistance per level, 2 low slots, 4 mid slots and about 35PG. I'm happy to accept arguments about the mining specialisation of the Hulk requiring that it doesn't have a particularly strong power plant, but I feel it deserves something more than 1/20th of a cruiser PG.

CCP did the wrong thing by buffing the base hull. They need to give players enough rope to hang themselves: give the barges and exhumers the fittings comparable to similar sized ships, then let the players make the mistakes. The Hulk would be able to field an awesome tank with just double what it currently has. There are other options for addressing the profitability of ganking mining barges: you wouldn't need to fit much tank if the strip miners and ice harvesters used about 1/3 to 1/2 of the current material requirements.

Bringing the exhumers fittings in line with other ships of the same size would be a good start though. Given their nature as sedentary devices (i.e.: they do their job by standing still), I'd like somewhere between cruiser and battle-cruiser tankability. But by no means should the Mackinaw have second best yield, second best tank and a vast ore bay. It has to lose something in the trade.

I disagree with Mallak though: even with the destroyer buff, the ganking rate wouldn't be anywhere near as high if the loot drops and salvage from a T2-fitted exhumer weren't so valuable.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2013-02-11 04:57:10 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
CCP did the wrong thing by buffing the base hull. They need to give players enough rope to hang themselves: give the barges and exhumers the fittings comparable to similar sized ships, then let the players make the mistakes. The Hulk would be able to field an awesome tank with just double what it currently has. There are other options for addressing the profitability of ganking mining barges: you wouldn't need to fit much tank if the strip miners and ice harvesters used about 1/3 to 1/2 of the current material requirements.

Bringing the exhumers fittings in line with other ships of the same size would be a good start though. Given their nature as sedentary devices (i.e.: they do their job by standing still), I'd like somewhere between cruiser and battle-cruiser tankability. But by no means should the Mackinaw have second best yield, second best tank and a vast ore bay. It has to lose something in the trade.


I agree to a point, fitting skills need to be valuable to anyone who uses a ship. So as long as the PG/CPU is around there its fine. Remember too that the dev's said cruiser so around cruiser size is where everything should be.

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#46 - 2013-02-11 04:57:18 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
We can extend this idea to mission runners/ratters/T2 fit combat ships. The dude who active tanks their faction or officer mission running/ratting tengu is in the same boat as the max yield miner.


Not even close. If the max yield miner was fitting officer modules, sure. The profit for ganking a T2 fit ship should not be enough to cover the cost of ganking it. Now if there were officer strip miners to go with those extremely rare high-meta MLUs, I'm sure you'd see some fools try to use them. I have no complaints about gankers making a profit from the foolishness of others.

Of course making a T2 fit ship a profitable ganking prospect would encourage people to engage in more PvP, at which point I'm all for it. But make that happen across the board. Until it's profitable to gank a T2 fit HAC, why should it be profitable to gank the T2 fit exhumer?

You gankers want to have your cake and eat it too.


I gave the example of the faction/officer fit because it is the most memorable for me. You can profit off of ganking T2 fit active tanked tengus as well. If the HAC/HIC/Recon/Logi decides to select something other than tank and sit there unawares then yes it should be possible to profitably gank them.


The missiles ones don't really add-up tho. A cerberus with T2 BCU and heavy launcher for example has less isk fitted than a full T2 mack. I guess it's the same for the other T2 missile cruiser. Laser and hybrid seems to depend on which weapon you run but they can be higher by a good margin.

How many millions of isk need to be fitted to become profitable?
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-02-11 04:59:33 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

The missiles ones don't really add-up tho. A cerberus with T2 BCU and heavy launcher for example has less isk fitted than a full T2 mack. I guess it's the same for the other T2 missile cruiser. Laser and hybrid seems to depend on which weapon you run but they can be higher by a good margin.

How many millions of isk need to be fitted to become profitable?


It's all controlled by the market so the answer to that is ~it depends~.

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#48 - 2013-02-11 05:02:15 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
I gave the example of the faction/officer fit because it is the most memorable for me. You can profit off of ganking T2 fit active tanked tengus as well.


So why aren't active tanked tengus dying as much as exhumers?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#49 - 2013-02-11 05:05:54 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Mara Rinn wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
I gave the example of the faction/officer fit because it is the most memorable for me. You can profit off of ganking T2 fit active tanked tengus as well.


So why aren't active tanked tengus dying as much as exhumers?


They tend to be at their keyboards and able to make life difficult for the gankers.

Miners have similar options. They simply choose not to employ them.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2013-02-11 05:06:48 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Mara Rinn wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
I gave the example of the faction/officer fit because it is the most memorable for me. You can profit off of ganking T2 fit active tanked tengus as well.


So why aren't active tanked tengus dying as much as exhumers?


I can think of three factors, it wasn't as widely publicized (no tenguageddon), there are less tengus than their are exhumers in PVE activities, and those people are more willing to adapt/learn from their mistakes. As can be seen from minerbumping.com highsec miners are very stubborn which means they are more likely to refuse to learn from what happened, I cannot prove that the tengu pilots are less/more/equally stubborn but based on forum participation by them I think it is more likely that they are less stubborn than highsec miners.

E: Make that four, tengu pilots are less likely to be AFK.

E2: Tengu pilots have the ability to kill the ganker.

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#51 - 2013-02-11 05:13:53 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
I gave the example of the faction/officer fit because it is the most memorable for me. You can profit off of ganking T2 fit active tanked tengus as well.


So why aren't active tanked tengus dying as much as exhumers?


They tend to be at their keyboards and able to make life difficult for the gankers.

Miners have similar options. They simply choose not to employ them.


I never used a DCU but unless it has a CD to prevent it from always running, a mack is cap stable running it even with an adaptive invulnerability field II.

There must be something wrong with that or everybody terrorized of gettign ganked would run that right?
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#52 - 2013-02-11 05:16:10 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
I never used a DCU but unless it has a CD to prevent it from always running, a mack is cap stable running it even with an adaptive invulnerability field II.

There must be something wrong with that or everybody terrorized of gettign ganked would run that right?


It's a low slot. They aren't prepared to lose yield to fit it.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2013-02-11 05:18:40 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

I never used a DCU but unless it has a CD to prevent it from always running, a mack is cap stable running it even with an adaptive invulnerability field II.

There must be something wrong with that or everybody terrorized of gettign ganked would run that right?


Everyone goes straight for max yield because their are currently no downsides for doing so. Using a DCU would reduce yield.

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-02-11 05:18:43 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
I never used a DCU but unless it has a CD to prevent it from always running, a mack is cap stable running it even with an adaptive invulnerability field II.

There must be something wrong with that or everybody terrorized of gettign ganked would run that right?


It's a low slot. They aren't prepared to lose yield to fit it.


COmmon. There must be something else. Like it can't keep on going right? Can't auto repeat? I mean it's so stupid.

And weren't the exhumer EHP based on structure before?
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2013-02-11 05:21:34 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
I never used a DCU but unless it has a CD to prevent it from always running, a mack is cap stable running it even with an adaptive invulnerability field II.

There must be something wrong with that or everybody terrorized of gettign ganked would run that right?


It's a low slot. They aren't prepared to lose yield to fit it.


COmmon. There must be something else. Like it can't keep on going right? Can't auto repeat? I mean it's so stupid.

And weren't the exhumer EHP based on structure before?


It costs very little cap and prevents the fitting of an MLU which reduces isk/hr. It can auto repeat and yes they did use to be structure based.

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-02-11 05:24:05 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
I never used a DCU but unless it has a CD to prevent it from always running, a mack is cap stable running it even with an adaptive invulnerability field II.

There must be something wrong with that or everybody terrorized of gettign ganked would run that right?


It's a low slot. They aren't prepared to lose yield to fit it.


COmmon. There must be something else. Like it can't keep on going right? Can't auto repeat? I mean it's so stupid.

And weren't the exhumer EHP based on structure before?


No, that's pretty much it. It uses 1gj on cap per cycle, has a huge cycle time & takes a low slot.

Yes, but you could get 36k EHP with a good shield fit tank.

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2013-02-11 05:25:10 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
I never used a DCU but unless it has a CD to prevent it from always running, a mack is cap stable running it even with an adaptive invulnerability field II.

There must be something wrong with that or everybody terrorized of gettign ganked would run that right?


It's a low slot. They aren't prepared to lose yield to fit it.


COmmon. There must be something else. Like it can't keep on going right? Can't auto repeat? I mean it's so stupid.

And weren't the exhumer EHP based on structure before?


It costs very little cap and prevents the fitting of an MLU which reduces isk/hr. It can auto repeat and yes they did use to be structure based.


I WAS LIED TO!!!!

The average EvE player is not more intelligent than a WoW player!

GAWD!!!!!

All hulkageddon could of been stopped at the cost of 9% yield...

I'm ...
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2013-02-11 05:25:53 UTC
La Nariz wrote:

Those are the points I don't agree with. The profitability of ganking was tied to the market just the same as the profitability of mining. Granted you shouldn't be making a profit off of ganking completely unfitted hulls, the income amount of that activity should be tied to RNG. In that situation sometimes you will win and sometimes you will lose. The ganking of people that chose to go for yield at expense of tank should be profitable though. The person decided to risk it all for the maximum reward part of maximizing the risk should be that you can be profitably ganked if you are not playing smart. How profitable is arbitrary and I'm not going to argue numbers.

We can extend this idea to mission runners/ratters/T2 fit combat ships. The dude who active tanks their faction or officer mission running/ratting tengu is in the same boat as the max yield miner. They have virtually no tank without activating his hardeners so if caught unaware they're going to die. They both maxed their reward but also maximized their risk.

We can extend your idea to suicide gankers. The dude who dedicates all the fitting for max DPS and puts 1 round of ammo into each gun....
His maximized his reward but also maximized his risk.

EWAR/tank/whatever? NOPE

Do they profitable to gank? Not sure.

Result: your idea can't be applied to every situation.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#59 - 2013-02-11 05:30:22 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
La Nariz wrote:

Those are the points I don't agree with. The profitability of ganking was tied to the market just the same as the profitability of mining. Granted you shouldn't be making a profit off of ganking completely unfitted hulls, the income amount of that activity should be tied to RNG. In that situation sometimes you will win and sometimes you will lose. The ganking of people that chose to go for yield at expense of tank should be profitable though. The person decided to risk it all for the maximum reward part of maximizing the risk should be that you can be profitably ganked if you are not playing smart. How profitable is arbitrary and I'm not going to argue numbers.

We can extend this idea to mission runners/ratters/T2 fit combat ships. The dude who active tanks their faction or officer mission running/ratting tengu is in the same boat as the max yield miner. They have virtually no tank without activating his hardeners so if caught unaware they're going to die. They both maxed their reward but also maximized their risk.

We can extend your idea to suicide gankers. The dude who dedicates all the fitting for max DPS and puts 1 round of ammo into each gun....
His maximized his reward but also maximized his risk.

EWAR/tank/whatever? NOPE

Do they profitable to gank? Not sure.

Result: your idea can't be applied to every situation.


Suicide ganking a Tier 3 BC is profitable.

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#60 - 2013-02-11 05:33:20 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
March rabbit wrote:

We can extend your idea to suicide gankers. The dude who dedicates all the fitting for max DPS and puts 1 round of ammo into each gun....
His maximized his reward but also maximized his risk.

EWAR/tank/whatever? NOPE

Do they profitable to gank? Not sure.

Result: your idea can't be applied to every situation.


EWAR would have worked great to disrupt gankers. So would a 650mm Nado (takes 2 volleys just like 800s, but better tracking and higher ROF).

The Suicide Ganker maximised his risk by fitting no ECCM or Tank. Everybody knew that they fit no ECCM or Tank, and the GCC mechanics mean that the defender (with ECM or DPS) doesn't need to worry about losing their ship.

ECM Drones would commonly keep an awake Hulk pilot from being blown up.

In addition, the Suicide Ganker has a guaranteed loss of his ship, meaning that a bad loot drop can easily make a gank unprofitable even if everything else went perfectly.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon