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[Discussion] T2 Production
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
#1 - 2013-02-10 12:48:31 UTC
Hey all!


Just wondering... are there are any t2 producers that read this part of the eve forums that actually work through the entire chain for t2 production?

ie. from moon goo all the way to the final product.

Understandably this may mean null sec indys so if u wanna post via an alt im cool with that too.

thanks! \o/
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#2 - 2013-02-10 13:44:32 UTC
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
Hey all!


Just wondering... are there are any t2 producers that read this part of the eve forums that actually work through the entire chain for t2 production?

ie. from moon goo all the way to the final product.

Understandably this may mean null sec indys so if u wanna post via an alt im cool with that too.

thanks! \o/



Oh, I'm sure there are plenty.

What I want to know is why this would be important to know, and important enough to start a thread, and what you expect to gain from knowing it ?

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-02-10 13:52:02 UTC
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
Just wondering... are there are any t2 producers that read this part of the eve forums that actually work through the entire chain for t2 production?

ie. from moon goo all the way to the final product.


So you're looking for people who mine, refine, copy, invent, do PI, mine moons, react moon mats and finally manufacture the final item?
Sugar Bunny InSpace
Toward the Terra
#4 - 2013-02-10 14:03:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Sugar Bunny InSpace
Response to your question:
- sorry I don't fulfill all the criterias

Did you actually mean to ask if there is a players that does Moon mining and also uses his products to make T2. To me it seems to much inefficient to bother.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#5 - 2013-02-10 14:04:13 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
Elena Thiesant wrote:
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
Just wondering... are there are any t2 producers that read this part of the eve forums that actually work through the entire chain for t2 production?

ie. from moon goo all the way to the final product.


So you're looking for people who mine, refine, copy, invent, do PI, mine moons, react moon mats and finally manufacture the final item?


well more the moon mining from scratch aspect all the way to final production.

i admit that PI, normal mining for building the t1 items like ships and RAM tech items etc.. are fairly easy to do, and a fairly widespread.

its more looking for some people with a good viewpoint about the relationship between moons, their location (rough) their output and what these materials are eventually turned into with respect to the final products racial diversity.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#6 - 2013-02-10 14:36:11 UTC
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:

its more looking for some people with a good viewpoint about the relationship between moons, their location (rough) their output and what these materials are eventually turned into with respect to the final products racial diversity.



The really good moons are all controlled by the really large Null Sec Alliances, therefore they make most of the T2 manufacturing components for T2 items themselves and sell them on the market, or they make up to the stage where you can buy the, say, Fullerines, and finish the T2 Component yourself.

I could be wrong, but I don't think any particular product is at the moon goo level is used for racial specific items, like Oxy Isotopes required for Gallente Fuel Blocks. Some T2 Components required for ships as an example are different for each races ships, but I don't think the racial path goes all the way back to specific moon goos.


BTW, this would not be an efficient process unless one is a member of one of those Large Sec Alliances, and even then doing this entire chain solo would be next to impossible.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#7 - 2013-02-10 14:36:12 UTC
As a bonus, you're looking for individuals who own moons literally all over the map.
I'm pretty certain nobody owns one of every moon.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#8 - 2013-02-10 14:40:32 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
The really good moons are all controlled by the really large Null Sec Alliances, therefore they make most of the T2 manufacturing components for T2 items themselves and sell them on the market, or they make up to the stage where you can buy the, say, Fullerines, and finish the T2 Component yourself.


Accurate as always. Explains why you can't buy Tech in Jita and why the reaction farm I used to run always ran at a loss, buying the scraps that the big alliances couldn't use. Oh, neither of those are true.

Alliances generally dump their moon goo on the market. They do this because Alliance income sources need to be largely passive or it essentially boils down to some guy donating ISK to the Alliance. Reaction farms are not particularly passive.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#9 - 2013-02-10 14:49:42 UTC
well the thing i really wanna talk about it something i noticed when building a diagram charting the r8's and 16's through to final t2 components, but with data about how many of those moons are in highsec/lowsec, and in what region.

i found a surprising disparity in the conclusion i came to compared to this quote from CCP's wiki about t2 component production.

CCP Evelopedia wrote:
Studying these tables helps understand demand for certain advanced materials, their inputs, and ultimately raw materials gathered from the moons to create them. It also explains why certain races use certain materials - because the moons in and around those empire space contain a greater concentration of those minerals.
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-02-10 14:57:01 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
I could be wrong, but I don't think any particular product is at the moon goo level is used for racial specific items, like Oxy Isotopes required for Gallente Fuel Blocks. Some T2 Components required for ships as an example are different for each races ships, but I don't think the racial path goes all the way back to specific moon goos.


It does.

The 4 racially different materials are:
Tungsten Carbide (used in Amarr components)
Titanium Carbide (used in Caldari components)
Fernite Carbide (used in Minmatar components)
Crystallite Carbide (used in Gallente components)

When you go back to raw materials, each of those requires a different raw mat that isn't used in any other simple reaction

Tungsten Carbide requires Tungsten
Titanium Carbide requires Titanium
Fernite Carbide requires Scandium
Crystallite Carbide requires Cobalt
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#11 - 2013-02-10 14:57:36 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
well the thing i really wanna talk about it something i noticed when building a diagram charting the r8's and 16's through to final t2 components, but with data about how many of those moons are in highsec/lowsec, and in what region.

i found a surprising disparity in the conclusion i came to compared to this quote from CCP's wiki about t2 component production.

CCP Evelopedia wrote:
Studying these tables helps understand demand for certain advanced materials, their inputs, and ultimately raw materials gathered from the moons to create them. It also explains why certain races use certain materials - because the moons in and around those empire space contain a greater concentration of those minerals.


No mine-able moons exist in HS (or .4 space, or WHs). All the rest are distributed either randomly or regionally throughout Lowsec and Nullsec. Dotlan has partial lists of moons for some areas.

I think the R8s are the racial ones.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#12 - 2013-02-10 15:09:57 UTC
well my problem for quite a while is getting accurate reliable information, and levering reliable complete info about moons in null sec is laughable, and well... i really dont have the time to go and drop tens of thousands of probes on every moon in null sec.

so the info i used was via dotlan. but NOT nullsec data... only data on 'empire regions'. tbh i didnt know that r8's and 16's werent in systems 0.4 or above, you learn something new every day i guess!

an example of the thing that puzzles me is the sheer amount of cobalt moons in amarr space compared to gallente space. Its even higher in average % chance of cobalt moons in an amarr system compared to a gallente system.
(as theres over 900+ systems essentially considered amarrian vs less than half that of systems considered gallente)

Heres the table i put together just fyi
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-02-10 15:14:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Elena Thiesant
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
so the info i used was via dotlan. but NOT nullsec data... only data on 'empire regions'. tbh i didnt know that r8's and 16's werent in systems 0.4 or above, you learn something new every day i guess!


It's not that they're not there. Afaik you can survey a moon even in highsec. You cannot anchor a moon mining module in 0.4 or above or in WH space, hence you can't mine the moons at all above 0.3.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#14 - 2013-02-10 15:17:40 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
well my problem for quite a while is getting accurate reliable information, and levering reliable complete info about moons in null sec is laughable, and well... i really dont have the time to go and drop tens of thousands of probes on every moon in null sec.

so the info i used was via dotlan. but NOT nullsec data... only data on 'empire regions'. tbh i didnt know that r8's and 16's werent in systems 0.4 or above, you learn something new every day i guess!

an example of the thing that puzzles me is the sheer amount of cobalt moons in amarr space compared to gallente space. Its even higher in average % chance of cobalt moons in an amarr system compared to a gallente system.
(as theres over 900+ systems essentially considered amarrian vs less than half that of systems considered gallente)

Heres the table i put together just fyi



There are no Mineable moons in .4 or above because you cannot mine moons in .4 or above.

There are actually 264,611 mineable moons. You're having trouble finding accurate, public information, because there is no accurate, complete list of moons anywhere.

If you notice, there are far more Cobalt moons overall listed on Dotlan in LS than any other R8. Dotlan simply isn't accurate.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-02-10 15:26:08 UTC
its actually kind of funny, there are a ton more cobalt moons in genesis (amarr space) then there is in essence (gallente space) though thats just a comparison between two regions and doesnt define anything as a whole.

there isnt a huge amount of attention paid to lore when it comes to goo distribution but it does in general follow.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#16 - 2013-02-10 16:01:58 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

There are actually 264,611 mineable moons. You're having trouble finding accurate, public information, because there is no accurate, complete list of moons anywhere.


the issue there is if i tried to collect the data myself, say i launched a survey probe 1 a minute (a massively tall order tbh), 24 hours a day (pretty much impossible due to downtime) itd still take me close to 6 months to do so. thats not even considering itd cost me approximately 20Bil in survey probes.

with that knowledge alone i can understand why accurate and complete moon data is a closely guarded secret.

the questions rolling around in my head are:


  • Why does it appear (even with less than totally accurate info) that r8's and r16's are not exactly matched in location with what theyre used to make racially.
  • Why is it only r 8's and r16's contribute to the racial differences to t2 ships?
  • Can the proposed ring mining help alleviate any issue with this, if there even is one?
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#17 - 2013-02-10 16:26:14 UTC
Elena Thiesant wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
I could be wrong, but I don't think any particular product is at the moon goo level is used for racial specific items, like Oxy Isotopes required for Gallente Fuel Blocks. Some T2 Components required for ships as an example are different for each races ships, but I don't think the racial path goes all the way back to specific moon goos.


It does.

The 4 racially different materials are:
Tungsten Carbide (used in Amarr components)
Titanium Carbide (used in Caldari components)
Fernite Carbide (used in Minmatar components)
Crystallite Carbide (used in Gallente components)

When you go back to raw materials, each of those requires a different raw mat that isn't used in any other simple reaction

Tungsten Carbide requires Tungsten
Titanium Carbide requires Titanium
Fernite Carbide requires Scandium
Crystallite Carbide requires Cobalt



Ah. Thanks for the clarification.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#18 - 2013-02-10 16:31:31 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
The really good moons are all controlled by the really large Null Sec Alliances, therefore they make most of the T2 manufacturing components for T2 items themselves and sell them on the market, or they make up to the stage where you can buy the, say, Fullerines, and finish the T2 Component yourself.


Accurate as always. Explains why you can't buy Tech in Jita and why the reaction farm I used to run always ran at a loss, buying the scraps that the big alliances couldn't use. Oh, neither of those are true.

Alliances generally dump their moon goo on the market. They do this because Alliance income sources need to be largely passive or it essentially boils down to some guy donating ISK to the Alliance. Reaction farms are not particularly passive.



Both of our comments are entirely too speculative and subjective and not universal enough to be 'rules' or 'game information', and neither requires comment.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-02-10 17:48:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Kusum Fawn
It has been my experience that all the best moons are controlled by alliances and they dump them onto the market rather then react them themselves. I had a long discussion one time with an alliance rep who also happened to manage the tech moon they owned.

he wasnt open to reacting the tech with platinum (despite having the platin in the same system)
it seemed to be too much work for an alliance hand to do

It is usually the nonalliance moons that make the useful parts (the carbonides and ferrogels) for public consumption though many smaller reactors can also make that stuff.

Ruby is generally right though i often disagree with his tone, and Krixtal is often partly right but with a sunnier disposition.
Listen to who you want to.

EDIT
- Oh to the op, yeah i built a Phobos that way once, once. as getting the parts and all that was a huge hassle, securing the moons, (i didnt secure a tech moon just got some of the stuff direct) Its a huge pain and completely inefficient. If youa re thinking about it, I suggest starting at invention and working your way backwards rather then starting at goo.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Skorpynekomimi
#20 - 2013-02-10 19:25:52 UTC
Doing it yourself all the way up is horribly time-intensive. I helped a friend mine minerals for a carrier once, and it was days of grinding rocks. Days and days and days. Cycle, cycle, warp, dock, undock, warp, cycle, cycle, warp, dock, undock, ad nauseam.

I have since kicked the mining habit, unless I'm SERIOUSLY low on ISK. It's just so much quicker and easier to bulk-buy off the market, queue up jobs, and profit that way. I'm limited to the difference between mineral price and sell prices of the item, but the sheer speed at which the whole chain takes place makes up for it, and then some.
I imagine moon mining, reacting things, and so forth would be just as inefficient.

How far do you want to go? Making your own fuel blocks for the PoS? Extracting the P0 stuff yourself and factorying it up to materials? Mining all the ice yourself to fill up the fuel blocks?

Economic PVP
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