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BUFF the Dragoon! - Amarr hulls needs love

Author
Taoist Dragon
The Flying Dead.
#21 - 2013-02-08 07:51:12 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Pah! loads of frigs kite at the edge of scram range (incursus, Tormentor, rifter, merlin etc etc) without the range bonus and no primary damage bonus to a ship weapon system it has the real possibility of being kited to death. One of the most fun ways to screw dessy pilots off.

The range bonus gives it neut capability past scram range. Not everything is either 15+km's or at point blank. You need to get out more!


The only way that works is if the dragoon in question is sitting still and not acting nor reacting to some frigate taking its time to get into orbit (if that frig isn't careful he'll overshoot on his own), in which alternate universe does that happen? If a competent pilot would fly a non range bonused neut dragoon and you'd try to attack it with that scram frig you'd get 2 neuts cycled on you before you get into your orbit 2 out of 3 times, getting you into trouble before the fight starts for real. So it serves no purpose there.

Then we get to the ehp/dps stuff, your kiting frig will simply not last. apart from that you either lack the damage projection or you lack the tracking to deal with the Dragoon's drones, on top of that it has rockets.

All this theoretical "I'll orbit you at 8.5km so HAH" is exactly that; theoretical, could you overheat? sure but will it actually work against a competent pilot? not really because even if you were able to pull that off the dragoon's EHP/dps would still just crush you. So it, again, serves no purpose.

The range bonus does not help it killing frigs and it doesn't help it from dying to cruisers.


It's not theory. Scram kiting is a very powerful tactic as for some reason the majority of people trying to pvp seem to think in your face or 15km+ kiting is the only option.

The dragoon is a 2 mid slot ship = no range dictation. This means that every AB fitted frig will be faster than it and can easily keep it at the edge of scram range (speed and agility in a frig is much higher than an armour dessy).

Then as you say it becomes a game of numbers in terms of DPS/Tank etc. but once again this is where the greater speed and agility come into play. After all this is THE thing that made the rifter king of the hill for so many years!

AH But wait!

The dragoon can neut any frig to zip cap anywhere in scram range. ah! so that means no active reppers (asb aside), probably no tackle and prop mod and if it uses cap for weapons no DPS. oh well maybe, just maybe the extended range on the dragoon is useful after all for killing frigs?!? well who would have thought that eh! then your drones + whatever secondary damage system you employ (turrets/rockets etc) can just tear the target apart.

I'm not sure how your counter to my scenario gives any support to the idea that the neut range bonus is useless?

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

Moonasha
Orcses and Goblinz
#22 - 2013-02-08 08:35:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonasha
+1

I like using it because I like neut ships... but god is it sub par. It's also expensive, with that 100 m3 of drone space.

I think it's more or less a fleet support ship. Rack of neuts, and 25 m3 of drone space to use ECM drones, or crappy scout drone dps.

The thing is, when it's in range to use its neuts, it gets insta gibbed by any cruisers on field. I've only gotten them up to 10k ehp. When it isn't in neut range, it's just a bad drone boat. I would have much preferred some sort of resist / hp bonus to the drone speed bonus. It fits more in line with the amarr philosophy anyways.

The arbitrator does everything better. It can fit med neuts, and 3 tracking disruptors as well.
ijustTOOKyourMONEY
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-02-08 17:01:31 UTC
So conclusion: Out of ALL the new dessy's this is the worst and could use adjustment PERIOD.
Meridius
Tzedakah
The Rogue Consortium
#24 - 2013-02-08 17:28:16 UTC
+1
Taoist Dragon
The Flying Dead.
#25 - 2013-02-09 00:29:33 UTC
ijustTOOKyourMONEY wrote:
So conclusion: Out of ALL the new dessy's this is the worst and could use adjustment PERIOD.


Nope.

Not the worst. Just most people have no idea how to use it effectively that's all

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

fukier
Brave Collective
#26 - 2013-02-09 15:21:29 UTC
the problem with low dps and neuts is that it does not mix well with the attack concept and is better for the combat concept.
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#27 - 2013-02-09 15:42:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Katran Luftschreck
We went over this before: The flaw of the Dragoon isn't the ship, it's the skills needed to use it.

Want to fly Corax? Learn missiles. Done.
Want to fly Talwar? Learn missiles. Done.
Want to fly Algos? Learn drones. Done.

Want to fly Dragoon? Learn turrets, drones, missiles and neutralizer skills.

Who wants to spend that much time & effort on a ship that they'll outgrow in a week? Answer: Nobody. Yes, it's the great potential in the hands of an experienced pilot who has already mastered all four of those skills, but such a pilot isn't going to be wasting their time in something as tiny as a Dragoon.

In short, it tries to do too many things at once and thus ends up failing at all of them.

Addenum: Buffing won't solve this problem. If anything it would only make it worse. What the Dragoon needs is to be simplied. Lose the neutralizer and put that bonus into armor repair or something. Then pick missiles or turrets - don't try to do both at once.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#28 - 2013-02-09 15:59:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
It is being used, but the niche it has is infinitesimal .. neuting (awesome vs. some frigs (ie. blaster/laser boats)) with primary damage from drones (pointless vs. frigs). Should have a gun/launcher layout of 5/5/ instead of the redundant 3/3 and a slight speed bump.

It offers only the double range neuting which is not really that great .. stick with the Coercer. It might have had its left arm chopped off when they pillaged the lows to give it that silly 2nd mid (why wasn't it taken from highs???) but it still burns **** to the ground like nobody's business.
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
...Addenum: Buffing won't solve this problem. If anything it would only make it worse. What the Dragoon needs is to be simplied. Lose the neutralizer and put that bonus into armor repair or something. Then pick missiles or turrets - don't try to do both at once.

Amarr does not do repair bonuses .. a resist bonus on the other hand .. make it into a mini *new* Prophecy. Drones are workable if one has staying power which is one of the biggest issues with a slow boat like the Goon.
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#29 - 2013-02-09 16:47:49 UTC
Play to the ship's strength. I've had some recent fun with the following fit:

High:
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator x 6
Mid:
Meta AB
Warp Disruptor II
Low:
DC II
200 Rolled Tungsten
Adaptive Nano Plate II
DDA II
Rigs:
Trimarks x 3

Drones- 10 warriors, 5 hobgoblins

You alpha their cap, then go to one neut. AB out to 11.5km where your 10.2k EHP should outlast the opponent while your drones do the dirty work. How effective is the strategy?

Jaguar
Wolf
Merlin,Breacher,& Merlin
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
#30 - 2013-02-10 10:28:17 UTC
Zarnak has the right idea here. However, I still think the Dragoon is subpar considering the opponents it usually faces. It is good against brawling frigs, but then again, so are most destroyers.

Can it beat its own class at their game (assuming opponents of equal skill)? Thrasher, Corax, Talwar, Coercer, Algos?

Its lack of mobility and poor range make it a bad fleet ship. Incidentally, Zarnak, normally I would suggest to replace the AB with a webifier, the poor speed/mass of the Dragoon makes the webifier more effective.

I do exactly the reverse of what Zarnak does, I go all-out gank with it. No neuts at all. Close to 400dps with about 10k EHP outganks/tanks other destroyers.
ijustTOOKyourMONEY
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-02-13 19:57:30 UTC
Merdaneth wrote:
Zarnak has the right idea here. However, I still think the Dragoon is subpar considering the opponents it usually faces. It is good against brawling frigs, but then again, so are most destroyers.

Can it beat its own class at their game (assuming opponents of equal skill)? Thrasher, Corax, Talwar, Coercer, Algos?

Its lack of mobility and poor range make it a bad fleet ship. Incidentally, Zarnak, normally I would suggest to replace the AB with a webifier, the poor speed/mass of the Dragoon makes the webifier more effective.

I do exactly the reverse of what Zarnak does, I go all-out gank with it. No neuts at all. Close to 400dps with about 10k EHP outganks/tanks other destroyers.


So you have a fit you can share for that gank fit? and how does it fare?
Ginger Barbarella
#32 - 2013-02-14 00:20:54 UTC
Kasutra wrote:
Hypothesis: Players who like flying drone boats are predominantly Gallente-skilled and their first inclination is to look for ships of that race.


Your hypothesis is flawed. Most of my alts are T2 drone skilled (several T2 sentry) and i RARELY fly Gallente. The Gallente I do fly (like Vigilant) rely on guns, not drones. Drones in that boat are an after-thought.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac

Illia Vuilleurmier
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#33 - 2013-02-17 00:05:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Illia Vuilleurmier
The only thing i don't understand with the dragoon is its role bonus.

I don't see the point of having a 25% drone mwd speed bonus on a ship that's supposed to get his targets at close range, neuted and probably scrambled as well.

Either you control the engagement at close range and pretty much waste it (what's the point of that speed bonus on super-slow targets as less than 10km?), either you don't control the range of engagement against a faster, kitting opponent, and then, while it might be of some use (in the case that said kitter is a frig, otherwise that won't change much), it pretty much contradicts the fact that it is a role bonus, which should strengthen the strong points of the ship (short range drone + neut) rather than mildly mitigate one of its weaknesses.

In my opinion it should have a bonus that reinforces its role as a short range fighter.
Valleria Darkmoon
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#34 - 2013-02-17 05:55:43 UTC
I have nearly all 5s for the Dragoon and it's fantastic (yes I fly destroyers and T1 frigates with my 65 million SP), far more so against cap dependent frigs but decent against any of them.

As with most fits designed to fight against greater numbers it tries to hold range early, which is where the MWD speed comes into play as the initial skirmish I often have nothing pointed and am not in neuting range yet. I'll go for a group of 3 and once I force one off I can commit to the other two. Remember also that the Dragoon used to have a 25% capacitor recharge role bonus which was removed and incorporated directly into the hull so the MWD speed is just gravy.

As for the fit itself, my secrets are my own until someone kills it, then it's up to them if they want to share it with you.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.

Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#35 - 2013-02-17 08:57:52 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
dude, you're better than this.


I am not defending the dragoon (I don't have an opinion as I haven't really messed with it much).

I am saying that usage statistics does not tell you anything about a ship's effectiveness.


It does.Roll


He's overstating his case by saying it says nothing, but quite a lot of ships/fits are popular because they don't require much skill to use decently rather than because they're the best choice, and there are a fair few ships/fit that are unpopular because they are hard to fly, require outside-the-box fitting, unorthodox tactics, or just because "everyone knows they suck".

The Dragoon is an unorthodox destroyer, so people tend to reject it out of hand or try to make it into an ersatz-Algos. That doesn't make it bad.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#36 - 2013-02-17 09:29:33 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
The Dragoon isn't sub-par by any means... it just isn't very good for skirmishy stuff that people are used to at the frigate-destroyer level. It's a brawler ship that is designed to remove the ability for certain ships to fight back (blaster and laser ships) and deal continuous damage.

Highs:
2x Meta 4 neuts
1x Meta 4 nos
3x Rocket launchers

Mids:
MWD
Scram

Lows:
Damage Control
2x Adaptive Plates
Meta 4 400mm plate

Rigs:
2x Ancillary
1x Trimark

Drones:
5x Hobgoblins
5x webber drones

Notes:
- 10k ehp
- about 200 DPS
- flies at about 1000 m/sec
- use the web drones to slow down fast stuff enough to apply a scram and neuts, then deploy damage drones and overload the rockets.
Grimpak
Manufactorum.
Atomic Fusion Industries
#37 - 2013-02-17 09:32:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimpak
honestly, stat-wise the dragoon is good.

the reason why it isn't used tho, it's because it looks like a fat, pregnant coecer, and the algos is much better looking.



so yes, it seems that the dragoon problems are pretty much visual. hell even the talwar is sorta better looking.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Illia Vuilleurmier
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#38 - 2013-02-17 16:07:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Illia Vuilleurmier
I LOVE the look of the Dragoon.
It was said however in the last CSM minutes that both the CSM and devs were aware of its close resemblance to the coercer and may alter the look of one of them.
Grimpak
Manufactorum.
Atomic Fusion Industries
#39 - 2013-02-17 16:52:19 UTC
Illia Vuilleurmier wrote:
I LOVE the look of the Dragoon.
It was said however in the last CSM minutes that both the CSM and devs were aware of its close resemblance to the coercer and may alter the look of one of them.

it being a vampire drone ship, it should've had a more .... "devilish" look.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#40 - 2013-02-17 17:53:22 UTC
I fought a few more battles wih the fit I posted above. (All neuts). I love the concept but am considering a few tweaks. The Disruptor isn't doing anything for me. Kitey frigates will zoom away at their leisure and stuff that needs their MWD shut off NOW I'm forced to wait for the neuts to kill instead. With three trimarks the Dragoon spends just a little too much time in a thrasher's death blossom range.

Managing the Dragoon's cap is also like juggling chainsaws. When you pull it off it is impressive. Multiple targets make life hell though. Ideally you kill the cap of a target and then go to one neut. With everything running the capacitor only has 24 seconds of life. I recently killed a AC Thrasher but lost to his tormentor buddy when I didn't have enough cap to shut off his point (was in structure from thrasher when tormentor entered plex)

I was thinking of the following changes:

Change Disruptor to scrambler.
Change out the three trimarks to two port egress maximizer rigs and a semiconductor memory cell rig.

This will make the ship slightly faster and more agile. It will pull range on projectile brawlers a bit faster. It will also double the cap life from 24 to 48 seconds. Cool The bad news is you lose 2k EHP to end around 8k.
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