Ships & Modules

Afs are fine, almost all work quite well, yes most of the will die to a 5mil condor but so will every dessie and most crusiers. You kind of need a way to counter kiters for them to work, fw areas give you this ability altho a snakes/linked condor will kill nearly every af even if it lands on 0 as it is so fast taht with heat you will be out of range before the af can even lock you.

Arty wolf still is great as is the kiting harpy, if you want to fly close range brawler setups you might be better off in nulsec then lowsec.

Not even close. AB destroyer is slower than a battleship, which means you get kited, transversal drops to zero, and turrets hit you for maximum dps. And with your paper HP you're going to be dead in seconds against 500-1000+ incoming dps from a single ship. Your "tank" only works against missiles, and even then web/painter is going to get the dps up high enough to tear a destroyer apart long before it can return the favor.

AFs, on the other hand, have the speed to get in close where they can out-run tracking and stay alive.

I said you're slower than a battleship just to emphasize how slow you are. Cruisers/BCs are even faster than battleships and have more than enough dps to insta-kill a destroyer. The point is that destroyers have no tank at all beyond a frigate-scale buffer, take 100% damage from all sub-capital turrets, and can, at best, warp out against anything bigger than a T1 frigate.

AFs, on the other hand, have the speed to get transversal above zero against things smaller than capital ships, so they might have a chance of surviving more than a few seconds. So the argument that an AB destroyer's tank can even come close to an AF's is obvious nonsense.

I think you're unnecessarily harsh on Destroyers. They're better than you give them credit for.

-Liang

besides the current argument over destoyers anyone guide me in the right direction i have mostly decent missile and hybrid skills with some okay projectile gun skills when i flew rifters.

im only about 1 day or so from my first AF so im trying to make a decision without having to buy all of them and test for myself

You obviously haven't heard of the gallentes 1mil isk (total) fit atron that they use by the hundreds. That 1mil frigate pretty much defeated and chased evoke out of cal mil space. Afs have a niche but you wont sling shot a good pilot in say a condor.. and yes a standard "cheap fit condor would take down an af they go 4km's with superior agility. Oonly an inexperience pilot would get caught by a slingshot.. unless you are saying that the af has a loki boost where it's web can go to 19 then it might have a chance but then to be fair you have to say the condor has a loki boost and is pointing you out to 36-42 ol'd. Which in that case you'd have 0 chance of sling shot. condor could just hit orbit at 30.

I kind of feel afs need a lil boost or at least need to be looked at on a case by case basis. A few tweaks here and there would bring them back i think. For instance in fw why would i fly an enyo or ishkur when i can get more dps and almost equal tank from say an algos (at half the price) only af advantage is lil more speed and lower sig once mwd is off.

Like to hear what some af lovers think cause they were fun when they were boosted but now that there are new destroyers all frigs and crusiers have been upgraded the af's don't have much appeal. I mean the t1 attack cruisers are as fast or faster then afs that seems like a disconnect to me. But perhaps it's as intended.

I absolutely LOVE my Enyo on my PvP toon. Most people seriously underestimate how much sheer R*pe it can lay down while staying very mobile and decently tanky. I even have a lol PvE fit for it that does almost 600 DPS (heat) while tanking up to 160 dps (Guristas or Serpentis) and STILL remaining under 90mil including the ship. I get a lot of funny comments from player who think I'm gonna die in a fire to a dozen+ NPCs at once, that is until they see me melting Battleships in an AF lol.

I wouldn't say the jag sucks...but fwiw my best ship in PvP is, and always has been, the fire tail.

Kiting jags don't really work. Where the jag shines is that its a brawler that is much faster than other brawlers. It in many ways feels more gallente than minmatar. You can win a good number of fights, but you have to choose carefully and understand its limitations.

Wolf is kind of awesome ATM, although its low agility makes it vulnerable to slingshotting.

Don't try the artillery wolf outside of fleets. Use auto wolf with tracking enhancers instead. Comparable damage below 24km with better tracking, easier fitting, and if you **** up and they close you still might win due to good tracking and the extra damage you did by kiting before they closed.

And to the guy who said wolf/jag should trade optimal falloff bonuses, they should just change them both to falloff or give one of them something new. Optimal bonuses on minmatar weapons are generally ****. At most PvP engagement scales falloff is better for artillery, and falloff is definitely better for autos. They need to abandon the optimal bonus on Minnie ships. Seriously, if there's even one viable fitting that benefits from the optimal somebody tell me, cause I'd love to be proven wrong here.

True, but what is the typical engagement range of a thrasher? Its great at longer ranges but most fights sit around 16-30km for arti ships of that size. Falloff bonuses are, for all intents and purposes, identical at those ranges. There's some minor differences but its fairly negligible. My issue with optimal is for most PvP setups it is equivalent to falloff, or in the case of autos, strictly inferior.

The reason the thrasher is so good is because of the strength of small projectiles and its bonuses. If you removed the optimal, autocannon thrashers would still kick ass but arti would die off. If you switch to a falloff bonus then arti is equivalent and autos are op. Its just an annoying bonus because on every ship other than the thrasher(which gets that bonus for free), it is extremely limiting.

Jaguars were good because of their slot layout and resist profile, not their bonuses. And when was the last time anybody saw a muninn?

Honestly we agree on most points. I guess it comes down to preference really, but I think the bonus is UP and don't care for it.

Yes.

And a wolf with an opt bonus is trash.

Dual TE wolf is better than the arty wolf in every way, save damage projection beyond about 20k... say, that's about where point range ends, isnt it?