Player Features and Ideas Discussion

1. Always expect PVP in this game. Always. There is in fact very little true safety in this game. When you warp into low security systems the game issues a warning. The same goes for when jumping into 0.0. You get a warning. You may have turned it off. That was your Choice™. The warning is still there even if you told the game client to disable it.

1. Always expect PVP in this game.

1. Always expect PVP in this game.

2. There are built in limitations to the covert ops cloak built into the game. Your statement acts as if none exist.

3. Pilots appearing in local is controlled by gates and stations. Those people inside the gates and station are just doing their job. Why should they risk being fired because someone is using a cloak? This isn't the FBI wire tapping a criminal's house where they can only listen in for the first 2 minutes or unless something criminal is being discussed. Are you in a system with a station or a gate? Yes? Then you appear in local. There are systems that don't have stations or gates that were provided to you. I suggest you choose to use them.

4. There are many ways to deactivate a cloak (anti-cloak mechanics). Use them.

* - Exactly. Many pilots like to be in local. Those who don't use the systems provided to them. Follow their lead.



Players are given the tools to generate their own style of gameplay. I suggest you do the same. You have made it painfully obvious that you dislike people who are cloaked up. Go to those systems where it doesn't matter (as much). They are called wormholes and security systems ranging from 0.1 to 1.0.

Thank you.

Wormholes. Solved.

Thank you.

P.S. Using "machiavellian" and then abbreviating gate into "g8" in the same post is a bit of a fail, in my opinion.

Sol, I gotta hand it to you, you are only a few steps off on this one.

I myself will fly immediately into the nearest wormhole, singing something from my son's TV programs most likely.

But, only on the following conditions:

Stable entry and exit points. Seriously, if I want to visit some place it helps that I can get back in, and the entry is there.

Outposts. Seriously, I want to throw my feet up on the couch, eat cheesey poofs, and flip through local market listings.

Oh, yeah, I want the Market too. My supply of exotic dancers must be maintained so I can properly represent. And they want me to buy the weirdest stuff to keep them happy.
(FYI: Happy exotic dancers = happy Nikk... )

And med clones. Seriously, the outpost should have this without asking, but it helps to specify these things.

The problem is:
The cloaker can remain a threat in local without any risks involved, uncloaking only on its own advice.
Never in risk.

The locals must keep on their toes because it is impossible to say if a cloaker is next to you in a belt, ready to drop a cyno for a black-ops fleet. or completely Afk at a safespot while at work.


Its a balancing issue, the effect versus the investment.
There are no other ingame functions where the playingfield is so highly unbalanced.

So I suggest the following solution to cloaking, which is viable and does not change normal gameplay. It only prevents the Afk cloaking issue and nothing else.

Make Cloaking devices cause a small generation of heat, low enough to allow 30 minutes of cloaking, 1 hour with good skills and 2 hours with a covert ops cloaking device.

Now the cloaker can still go and be safe, however after enough cloaking items onboard start taking damage.
After a while, the cloaking device and other highslot items may break, unless you decloak and allow the Heatstatus to dissapate.

This means for a few minutes of cooldown, you can still harass people, BUT you cant leave the computer online while going to sleep or work, to harass people with no risk.

Sensible, simple and in line with game mechanics, if you go over the time. Use repair paste to fix the damage just like after overheating.

The problem is balanced.

The locals also experience no risk, as they are able to get safe as a result of local warning them well in advance of the cloaked vessel being able to intercept them.

As you described, the cloaker can drop the cloak, and cyno in additional forces.
The locals can also do this, with additional variations such as having them log in at a POS or outpost.

The resulting stalemate effect is called PvP. In this competitive contest, the two sides see who is willing to wait the longest.
Neither side is capable of mining or ratting without risking the other attacking.

So one side remains cloaked, while the other is cloaked / behind POS shields / docked at outpost.

Now, if you want to place an equal heat buildup on these aspects, the POS and outpost, that is different.

Try posting this again with a less awful title.

PvE'ers are criticizing my ideas as too favorable for cloakers and cloakers are criticizing my ideas as too favorable for PvE'ers - I'll take this to mean that my ideas are pretty good - if in need of refinement.

Personal responses:

F3ARL3SSx - I included your idea in my original posts. I probably won't respond to any more suggestions that have already been made (or linked to) in the original posts, I'll try to document the discussion in the first post as it goes along so that we keep our ideas organized.

Hakan - Thank you. On the idea of optional local; I like the idea but it really needs it's limits, and whether or not (and how) this should be implemented depends on whether or not the standard state remains as it is or becomes delayed. The main problem I see with it is using the mechanic to give alliances more control with less effort over their sov space. I'll have to consider this idea a little more before being able to make a full response.

General responses:

1. It's possible to place two quotes into a single post by choosing "quote", copying the text from the page that comes up, and pasting that into your final post. Alternatively, there is a "quote" option when making a reply. I just suggest using these so as to limit the number of double-posts, they accelerate the rate at which these threads become hard to manage.

2. I don't really want to respond to straw-man fallacies. Beyond making it longer, mis-quoting and attacking the incorrect quotation does not add to the discussion. I also will try to save time by not repeating myself. For instance, I already addressed why I am suggesting these changes and how I justify suggesting these changes, therefore, while the feedback is valuable, I won't make any more specific responses to posts that suggest, without explanation, that I accept game mechanics as they are.

3. Capital cloaks. There is a serious problem with cloak scanners if they can easily detect capitals, because it breaks capital cloaking altogether. Capitals cloak primarily as a defensive technique, and even if using it offensively, are plenty balanced because they must decloak in order to initiate their painfully slow align and warp. Once in warp they warp slowly - there are more than enough ways to gain intel on the presence of a capital ship already. So, if a cloak scanner is added, make capitals immune to cloak scans.

4. Shutting down local entirely or turning it into delayed mode entirely is a big, big thing. Whether or not this breaks canon or fixes any problems we have is besides the point for the purpose of this thread. The issue here is that a change of this magnitude effects every k-space activity in the entire game, and that's a much larger and much different discussion than what I intended to bring up here.

5. If you agree with me that there are issues here, I think the issues should be solved as simply as possible. My goals are to re-work the current system in such a way as to make afk cloaking less "invincible" but just as viable, and to limit the passive defensive options for players running high-risk, high-reward PvE in null. I think solutions like adding heat to cloaks add absolutely no work for PvE players, nor do they effectively increase the ability to defend oneself from hostile cloaked players. This is a pretty one-sided nerf to cloaks that adds a minor annoyance instead of positively effecting gameplay. Besides, we have to remember that ANY change will effect our friends as much as our enemies.

6. A corp mate suggested removing the idea of a "beacon" on the cloak scan, so that while a cloak-scanning ship would need to be stationary and decloaked, it couldn't be warped to instantly. Thoughts?



Do you not see what I did there?

I think we are all forgetting some facts:

1) Modules cannot be used while cloaked, whether it be propulsion, weapons, etc. There is no danger from a cloaked ship. When it uncloaks on the other hand...different story.

2) The term AFK stands for AWAY FROM KEYBOARD. While the true definition of this eludes many people, I tend to believe that it means that PEOPLE ARE AWAY FROM THEIR KEYBOARDS, or in other words UNABLE TO EXECUTE COMMANDS RELATED TO GAMEPLAY.

Now if we combine these into what some may call AFK CLOAKING, we have a double useless ship that cannot use modules and has no one at the keyboard to make commands. This type of activity does not effect any 'actual' player at all.

Now for more facts. The ONLY 'people' truly effected by AFK CLOAKING are bots that rely on local to tell them when to POS up or logoff. If you are botting, you are bad and should feel bad, and we have no pity for you because your bots dont work because of the lone red/neut in your system who hasnt said a single word in 3 weeks.

Now if someone were to be cloaked, and happens to uncloak and lights a cyno causing your precious mining op to be OMGWTFBBQD...then that person was not AFK, and in fact had to UNCLOAK to use modules..hence that person is/was not an AFK CLOAKER.

We understand the literal interpretation of the term. Over a long period of time on the forums, the term "AFK Cloaker" has become a convention that describes a player who is both AFK and cloaked most of the time, but unpredictably at-keyboard and very much not-cloaked. I don't think anyone is dumb enough to think that there is a literal threat from someone who is both cloaked and away from keyboard, just as there is absolutely no danger from falling off a cliff, only from landing.

i read the whole thing, just as an fyi

as a covert ops pilot, i find all of your suggestions redonculous, other than the one about removing a cloaked ship from local chat after a certain amount of time, because how do they know im there if i am cloaked?

the whole point of a cloak is to be un-detectablee.

as of right now, only local gives people a means to know you are there, and honestly its bullshit

and as to the ratters not feeling like they can rat in null because they dont want to lose their ship, then dont leave highsec, thats just stupid.

your post was well thought out and written, but you only had one valid point, and i stated it above, the rest, anything that is a means of finding a cloaked ship other than the current mechanic of bumping it from 2km, is garbage, and goes against what cloaking is.

if oyu dont like the fact that you cant safely rat anywhere but highsec, then go play some ****** mmo where they dont like pvp because people whine aobut getting their asses burned. ( not directed at you, but at every player who thinks thye should be able to be "safe" anywhere thats not docked in an npc station