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Is it just EVE...
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Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#1 - 2013-02-07 19:47:04 UTC
or does every MMO suffer from "You shouldn't have more stuff than me because you have more friends" entitlement? I have a feeling it's particular to EVE because of the PVP sandbox, but I haven't played any other MMOs.

I don't get it. Why do some people feel that all content should be available to every player, without effort and without teamwork?

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#2 - 2013-02-07 19:47:48 UTC
Why dont we all have Blue Party Hats?

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2013-02-07 19:48:55 UTC
eve, unlike most mmos, is a game you play against other people

if you're used to playing wow where everyone can be level 80, it is VERY UNFAIR that you can't be the king of space in EVE without killing the old king which you are too friendless to do

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2013-02-07 19:52:24 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
eve, unlike most mmos, is a game you play against other people

if you're used to playing wow where everyone can be level 80, it is VERY UNFAIR that you can't be the king of space in EVE without killing the old king which you are too friendless to do


This is, I think, the crux of the issue. In Wow, you don't NEED friends to reach the end game content. They can certainly help you get there faster, but they aren't necessary. In Eve, if you want to accomplish anything that puts your name on the map, you better have friends. It's also, I think, confusing that Eve doesn't really have an End Game. It has End Game-ish content, like sov and supercaps, but even those can be walked away from without any real issues.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Tyrendian Biohazard
The Bastards
Sedition.
#5 - 2013-02-07 19:52:32 UTC
Any game will have that mentality, but the fact is that Eve does very well with lateral expansion compared to standard MMOs and incorporates all aspects of the game to become successful. Logi pilots are needed, miners are needed, industrialists are needed, etc. Where in other MMOs, progression often dictates how good your gear is, Eve makes you go out an earn it. Even then, earning it doesn't mean its the best for a certain situation. Typical MMOs just don't do that as well as Eve.

Twitch streamer and EVE NT tournament broadcaster.
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#6 - 2013-02-07 19:57:25 UTC
Sounds like the OP suffers from "I have more friends, so i deserve more stuff" entitlement. P

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Diesel Phumes
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-02-07 20:08:20 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
eve, unlike most mmos, is a game you play against other people

if you're used to playing wow where everyone can be level 80, it is VERY UNFAIR that you can't be the king of space in EVE without killing the old king which you are too friendless to do


This is, I think, the crux of the issue. In Wow, you don't NEED friends to reach the end game content. They can certainly help you get there faster, but they aren't necessary. In Eve, if you want to accomplish anything that puts your name on the map, you better have friends. It's also, I think, confusing that Eve doesn't really have an End Game. It has End Game-ish content, like sov and supercaps, but even those can be walked away from without any real issues.


Are you serious? Have you ever played WoW?

Do you know what end-game content in WoW really is? Do you know what a gladiator title is? Do you know that end-game content in WoW is only completed by about 3% of the player base, and the top .5% of this 3% are sponsored to play?

I don't understand all these comparisons made to WoW. End-game in WoW is based in 1 of two areas:

1) Being a top arena team (top .5%) [Team implies either 2, 3, or 5 people]
2) Being the first or second or third guild to clear the end-game content which only 3% of the playerbase will ever actually accomplish [This end-game content requires a 25-man raid to clear]

So, to come in here and say that it doesn' take friends to clear the end-game in WoW is absolutely absurd.
Myrissa Kistel
Planetary Logistics
#8 - 2013-02-07 20:09:03 UTC
Every MMO I have ever played it was easier and more fun with more people. Even EvE is a lot more fun if you play with others. Right now all my friends are pretending to be pandas instead of spaceships so I am here alone Sad
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#9 - 2013-02-07 20:15:31 UTC
Diesel Phumes wrote:
So, to come in here and say that it doesn' take friends to clear the end-game in WoW is absolutely absurd.

Do people whine as much about end-game content in WOW as they do here regarding their own personal tech moon?

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2013-02-07 20:18:07 UTC
Diesel Phumes wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
eve, unlike most mmos, is a game you play against other people

if you're used to playing wow where everyone can be level 80, it is VERY UNFAIR that you can't be the king of space in EVE without killing the old king which you are too friendless to do


This is, I think, the crux of the issue. In Wow, you don't NEED friends to reach the end game content. They can certainly help you get there faster, but they aren't necessary. In Eve, if you want to accomplish anything that puts your name on the map, you better have friends. It's also, I think, confusing that Eve doesn't really have an End Game. It has End Game-ish content, like sov and supercaps, but even those can be walked away from without any real issues.


Are you serious? Have you ever played WoW?

Do you know what end-game content in WoW really is? Do you know what a gladiator title is? Do you know that end-game content in WoW is only completed by about 3% of the player base, and the top .5% of this 3% are sponsored to play?

I don't understand all these comparisons made to WoW. End-game in WoW is based in 1 of two areas:

1) Being a top arena team (top .5%) [Team implies either 2, 3, or 5 people]
2) Being the first or second or third guild to clear the end-game content which only 3% of the playerbase will ever actually accomplish [This end-game content requires a 25-man raid to clear]

So, to come in here and say that it doesn' take friends to clear the end-game in WoW is absolutely absurd.



did you just sperg out over wow bullshit and dumb titles

wow is a cooperative game. eve is a competitive game. wanking over who completed the cooperative mode first is dumb and pointless. everyone can do it if they want, but only the strong few with the will to power in eve will have the mightiest space empire

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2013-02-07 20:28:50 UTC
Weas, because of the combination of goonhood and rodent-name your posts remind me of Vile Rat every time.

:(

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-02-07 20:35:09 UTC
Weaselior wrote:

did you just sperg out over wow bullshit and dumb titles

wow is a cooperative game. eve is a competitive game. wanking over who completed the cooperative mode first is dumb and pointless. everyone can do it if they want, but only the strong few with the will to power in eve will have the mightiest space empire

His response was more to the idea that end game content could be achieved without cooperation in WoW, which isn't true. Unlike eve there are more or less specified endgame activities which require cooperation.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2013-02-07 20:47:26 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
Weas, because of the combination of goonhood and rodent-name your posts remind me of Vile Rat every time.

:(

it's worse on my somethingawful username, evilweasel, especially since we both modded the politics forum

:(

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-02-07 20:49:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Weaselior wrote:
Diesel Phumes wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
eve, unlike most mmos, is a game you play against other people

if you're used to playing wow where everyone can be level 80, it is VERY UNFAIR that you can't be the king of space in EVE without killing the old king which you are too friendless to do


This is, I think, the crux of the issue. In Wow, you don't NEED friends to reach the end game content. They can certainly help you get there faster, but they aren't necessary. In Eve, if you want to accomplish anything that puts your name on the map, you better have friends. It's also, I think, confusing that Eve doesn't really have an End Game. It has End Game-ish content, like sov and supercaps, but even those can be walked away from without any real issues.


Are you serious? Have you ever played WoW?

Do you know what end-game content in WoW really is? Do you know what a gladiator title is? Do you know that end-game content in WoW is only completed by about 3% of the player base, and the top .5% of this 3% are sponsored to play?

I don't understand all these comparisons made to WoW. End-game in WoW is based in 1 of two areas:

1) Being a top arena team (top .5%) [Team implies either 2, 3, or 5 people]
2) Being the first or second or third guild to clear the end-game content which only 3% of the playerbase will ever actually accomplish [This end-game content requires a 25-man raid to clear]

So, to come in here and say that it doesn' take friends to clear the end-game in WoW is absolutely absurd.



did you just sperg out over wow bullshit and dumb titles

wow is a cooperative game. eve is a competitive game. wanking over who completed the cooperative mode first is dumb and pointless. everyone can do it if they want, but only the strong few with the will to power in eve will have the mightiest space empire


He is pointing out some PvP in WoW. Like the arenas in which, despite the cooperative nature, people actually PvP for higher rankings and titles.

So some parts of WoW have a whole lot of compeition just like there is a whole lot of cooperation in EvE.

I mean generally one man corps don't build titans by themselves.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Kate stark
#15 - 2013-02-07 20:53:25 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Weaselior wrote:

did you just sperg out over wow bullshit and dumb titles

wow is a cooperative game. eve is a competitive game. wanking over who completed the cooperative mode first is dumb and pointless. everyone can do it if they want, but only the strong few with the will to power in eve will have the mightiest space empire

His response was more to the idea that end game content could be achieved without cooperation in WoW, which isn't true. Unlike eve there are more or less specified endgame activities which require cooperation.


wrong.

a friend wouldn't shut up about wow to me so i put a month's gametime on it.
i clicked "join lfr" then went afk, and let 24 other people kill every raid boss for me.

you don't even have to cooperate, know, or talk to the people in wow to experience the endgame content.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Sab Sab Five
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-02-07 20:55:15 UTC
Quote:
"You shouldn't have more stuff than me because you have more friends"


Every game suffers from this, but it isn't the game that has this mentality. Its the people who are anti-social, or are too casual to invest time and interest to make friends. This causes people to have limitations that are set by any number of things, outside the game, which they feel hold them back.

The same is true in life of course. The best thing to do is to ignore these people. People whined about PvP in Ultima, omg this rouge killed me and took my stuff, wah!

They whined about it in Everquest, he killed me and took my money, wah!

They whine about it in WoW, i was questing and he killed me and stole my rare mob!

The difference in EvE is that there are more people who want to make people whine than other typical mmo's. Also EvE is not a typical mmo.

take every other game in existence, and you will find that the group players do better. Disciplined guilds, corps, groups, whatever. They will always outplay and outperform individuals, even if the individual is a great gamer. Why? because that is what the developers want. That is the dynamic around which these MMO's are developed.

let's call it synergy.

Whiners will always complain when they don't have friends. At the basest level, it is just a call for more friends. Ignore it, or take them in... Although that is not really the way with EvE. This game has a more harsh mentality, which probably comes from the death penalty and the cutthroat pvp.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#17 - 2013-02-07 20:55:35 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
He is pointing out some PvP in WoW. Like the arenas in which, despite the cooperative nature, people actually PvP for higher rankings and titles.

Is WOW full loot PVP? Because that's not really PVP, it's more like mutual masturbation.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-02-07 21:00:13 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
He is pointing out some PvP in WoW. Like the arenas in which, despite the cooperative nature, people actually PvP for higher rankings and titles.

Is WOW full loot PVP? Because that's not really PVP, it's more like mutual ************.


*sigh* Some people a few threads back were yelling at me that trading and mining in EvE is PvP.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Kalle Demos
Ironic Corp Name
#19 - 2013-02-07 21:12:48 UTC
ITT Nerds compare one ****** game to another

The great and awesome thing about WoW is, its flooded with people who dont take it too serious and dont compare it to RL, sov holding alliances sadly have lost touch with reality, whats more amusing is those 'friends' left NC, Goons before that (when IT killed them) and Goons before that (just before Bob was disbanded) within seconds of 'problems' far quicker than any other alliance.

Therefore saying 'friends' doesnt make any sense, saying gold digging ass kissers is more appropriate

Also Razor have a 'hardcore' WoW corp in their alliance, I forgot the name but they "play when theres no war in EVE"
Dessau
The Scope
#20 - 2013-02-07 21:13:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Dessau
Sab Sab Five wrote:
Every game suffers from this, but it isn't the game that has this mentality. Its the people who are anti-social, or are too casual to invest time and interest to make friends. This causes people to have limitations that are set by any number of things, outside the game, which they feel hold them back.

I was just thinking that casual play limitations exist mainly within EVE's structure, since being casual in many other games does not necessarily preclude one from accessing all of the game's mechanics: you pay a penalty in terms of time and money, and usually some frustration. I can only apply this to a handful of games, however, the rest is anecdotal.

In EVE, there's nothing wrong with casuals being limited due to lack of manpower or time. You must work within your means, and enjoy the experience for what it is. Some will consider it a lesser experience, but opinions will vary, as ever.

I have almost no 'teammates' in EVE, but I enjoy the game even knowing that there are things I will never see or do. I suspect there are plenty of casuals who are as active as they can be and have similar feelings.
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