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Dev blog: The great ship skill change of summer 2013

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Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#161 - 2013-02-07 16:36:34 UTC
Pasha Cracken wrote:
I do like most of the changes..

However as a capital pilot I do not agree with the Jump fuel and Jump drive cal skills being required. The way it is not is fine because it allows there to be a definition between an "average" capital pilot and a great capital pilot because they dedicate more time to the skills.

It also allows for super pilots to train a sitter alt in a reasonable time. Most of that additional time would come from training those fuel and cal skills, without it the training time would be much quicker and not 146 days.

I also would like to ask this. You state that "if you can fly it now you can fly it after" Does this mean that pilots with the bare minimum in skills to fly a archon with NO jump fuel or jump cal trained will get bumped to that level?

If the answer is yes, then please pass me the same amount in skill points so I can put them somewhere else..... I spent my time training JDC 5 and JFC 4 so I can be a good capital pilot, if people are just going to get bumped to the required levels then there needs to be some sort of compensation to people who actually spent their training time to reach it anyways.


You, or anyone else, will not get the new skills.
You will be able to fly the ship.

The prereqs are needed to get the skill, not to fly the ship.

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Adaahh Gee
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#162 - 2013-02-07 16:37:11 UTC
tgl3 wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
V'Kanth Agalder wrote:
“if you could fly it before, you can fly it now”

Does this apply to command ships as well? I note the added skill requirements - armoured warfare V etc. will these also be given to characters who can currently fly a Damnation but won't be able to after the expansion?


Because of the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, skills like Armored Warfare 5 will be required to train the Command Ships skill but if someone has already trained the skill the change will not affect them.


So you are actually saying is some ships we can fly now, we won't be able to fly after this mess is implemented.
I don't have a real problem with it, since you can't do much with a Damnation without that skill.


Any ships you can fly BEFORE the change (as in you have the skill trained e.g. Command Ships) you can fly after the change. All that is changing is the requirement to inject the skillbook (e.g. injecting Command Ships). If you already have it injected, you are fine.


but you cannot train it any higher without first meeting the pre-reqs???
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#163 - 2013-02-07 16:37:25 UTC
badposting wrote:
The skills you added to caps were ones you needed anyway (except capships IV) so the effective training time for caps is now way shorter. Like we needed that.


Absolutely.

This is one of the most ******** ideas you have come up with in ages, and that takes some doing.
PsychoBitch
Playboy Enterprises
Dark Taboo
#164 - 2013-02-07 16:38:03 UTC
Swell. CAN WE CONCENTRATE ON THE THINGS THAT ARE BUSTED NOW!
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#165 - 2013-02-07 16:38:17 UTC
I could probably copy and paste the same exact response to every reply in this thread and I'd still be answering their questions.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
tgl3
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#166 - 2013-02-07 16:38:28 UTC
Adaahh Gee wrote:
tgl3 wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
V'Kanth Agalder wrote:
“if you could fly it before, you can fly it now”

Does this apply to command ships as well? I note the added skill requirements - armoured warfare V etc. will these also be given to characters who can currently fly a Damnation but won't be able to after the expansion?


Because of the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, skills like Armored Warfare 5 will be required to train the Command Ships skill but if someone has already trained the skill the change will not affect them.


So you are actually saying is some ships we can fly now, we won't be able to fly after this mess is implemented.
I don't have a real problem with it, since you can't do much with a Damnation without that skill.


Any ships you can fly BEFORE the change (as in you have the skill trained e.g. Command Ships) you can fly after the change. All that is changing is the requirement to inject the skillbook (e.g. injecting Command Ships). If you already have it injected, you are fine.


but you cannot train it any higher without first meeting the pre-reqs???

This is the part that is in dispute. As far as I know, you should be able to train it fine since the only check on skills is done on injecting the skillbook, but still waiting on Dev confirmation of this.
tgl3
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#167 - 2013-02-07 16:39:01 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I could probably copy and paste the same exact response to every reply in this thread and I'd still be answering their questions.

No you can *still* fly the shi- oh, sorry.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#168 - 2013-02-07 16:39:15 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
V'Kanth Agalder wrote:
“if you could fly it before, you can fly it now”

Does this apply to command ships as well? I note the added skill requirements - armoured warfare V etc. will these also be given to characters who can currently fly a Damnation but won't be able to after the expansion?


Because of the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, skills like Armored Warfare 5 will be required to train the Command Ships skill but if someone has already trained the skill the change will not affect them.


So you are actually saying is some ships we can fly now, we won't be able to fly after this mess is implemented.
I don't have a real problem with it, since you can't do much with a Damnation without that skill.

However, this whole plan is pandering to low SP players climbing into ships they should not be flying.
Flying a BS requires a ton more support skills than any ship skills.
By fast-tracking the ability to climb into larger ships, newer players will also bypass the gameplay time (also called experience) necessary to recognize the need to learn many, many unglamorous, but critical ship support skills, before they climb into an expensive hull.

We are going to see ever MORE people running around in pricey ships who can't even fit a T2 tank.

The whole concept you are implementing is idiotic.
You would far better serve the new player community by creating a guide that details all the ship support skills and why people should train the vast majority to V before climbing into any ship more expensive than a T1 cruiser.


As usual, Dinsdale is wrong. Ignore his post(s).

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#169 - 2013-02-07 16:40:23 UTC
Adaahh Gee wrote:
but you cannot train it any higher without first meeting the pre-reqs???

We don't know the answer to that. CCP doesn't seem to understand how to answer that question without being ambiguous.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Green Gambit
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#170 - 2013-02-07 16:42:17 UTC
Ethan Revenant wrote:
If this devblog comes to pass, the distinction between fleet and field command ships will vanish. (I hope this only means that the fleet command ships will get a full set of highs of their weapons and not have their other bonuses nixed in favor of combat bonuses. I can dream, okay.)


Erm go read: http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73530 from back in November.

"We are removing the distinction between “fleet” and “field” Command Ships. All of them will now have 3% bonuses to two Warfare Link fields and be able to fit three warfare link modules simultaneously (instead of 3 for fleet versions only). That also means that the previous fleet Command Ships will be rebalanced to fit combat roles."
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#171 - 2013-02-07 16:42:35 UTC
Adaahh Gee wrote:
tgl3 wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
V'Kanth Agalder wrote:
“if you could fly it before, you can fly it now”

Does this apply to command ships as well? I note the added skill requirements - armoured warfare V etc. will these also be given to characters who can currently fly a Damnation but won't be able to after the expansion?


Because of the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, skills like Armored Warfare 5 will be required to train the Command Ships skill but if someone has already trained the skill the change will not affect them.


So you are actually saying is some ships we can fly now, we won't be able to fly after this mess is implemented.
I don't have a real problem with it, since you can't do much with a Damnation without that skill.


Any ships you can fly BEFORE the change (as in you have the skill trained e.g. Command Ships) you can fly after the change. All that is changing is the requirement to inject the skillbook (e.g. injecting Command Ships). If you already have it injected, you are fine.


but you cannot train it any higher without first meeting the pre-reqs???

Weve gotten conflicting answers to this, but most answers are: The prereq to training any skill higher is to have that skill injected, nothing more. But.......We await CCP confirmation.

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Ethan Revenant
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#172 - 2013-02-07 16:44:00 UTC
Green Gambit wrote:
Ethan Revenant wrote:
If this devblog comes to pass, the distinction between fleet and field command ships will vanish. (I hope this only means that the fleet command ships will get a full set of highs of their weapons and not have their other bonuses nixed in favor of combat bonuses. I can dream, okay.)


Erm go read: http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73530 from back in November.

"We are removing the distinction between “fleet” and “field” Command Ships. All of them will now have 3% bonuses to two Warfare Link fields and be able to fit three warfare link modules simultaneously (instead of 3 for fleet versions only). That also means that the previous fleet Command Ships will be rebalanced to fit combat roles."


Protip: that was the devblog I linked and the context for the parenthetical statement.
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#173 - 2013-02-07 16:48:56 UTC
Any word on fixing guns to be similar?

Currently t2 large guns require large spec, which requires med spec to be at 4 and med guns to be at 5, and med spec requires small guns to be at 5 and small spec to be at 4.

Defeats the "T2 is specialization" thing you guys are going for when using T2 hybrids requires you to specialize in all the smaller hybrids first.

Similarlly T1 capital guns require Large guns to V, which is pretty silly too imo.

Great work on the ship changes though, please don't take this as a complaint.

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Lfod Shi
Lfod's Ratting and Salvage
#174 - 2013-02-07 16:51:06 UTC
Think I just slipped off that learning curve cliff again. Gonna have to read that blog 8 or 10 more times. blblblblblblblblblbl Shocked

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Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#175 - 2013-02-07 16:51:21 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Marsaac wrote:
Question, what happened to "if you could fly it before you can fly it now."? My alt can fly a fenrir now with Advanced Spaceships 4, after patch it will require 5, therefor she won't be able to fly it anymore right? That seems a bit bullshit to me.


You will still be able to fly it. The top skill in the tree is the only one that actually determines your ability to fly a ship. The Fenrir before and after will require:

Primary:
Advanced Spaceship Command Level I

Secondary:
Minmatar Freighter Level I

So you can fly it even though you do not have Advanced Spaceship Command at Level V.
Ok, so since some of the nested skill requirements are changing, what I'm reading here is that all I'll need post-patch is Primary Skill and Secondary Skill.

My question is this: if I train today for, say Command Ships (skill), and I just inject and train it to level 1, which means I could fly a command ship after the changes, provided I have trained for BC V now (as well as the Frig/Cruiser requirements currently required for all the BCs), then could I train up the Command Ships (skill) post-patch, even if I wouldn't have all the link nested skills trained? And even if I couldn't fly a Command Ship now? (Because post-patch, I'd have the primary and secondary skills required.)

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Cameron Zero
Sebiestor Tribe
#176 - 2013-02-07 16:51:34 UTC
Is this example correct?

As long as you have all racial frigates trained to at least III, you'll get all the racial destroyer skills set to whatever your destroyers skill is when the change occurs. Same is true for the racial cruisers and battlecruiser skill.

Example:

On patch day, you have Amarr, Gallente, and Minmatar frigates trained to IV. You have Caldari frigates trained to II. Your destroyer skill is IV. Once the patch his, you will lose Destroyers IV and gain Amarr Destroyers IV, Gallente Destroyers IV, and Minmatar Destroyers IV. You will not get Caldari Destroyers IV because you didn't train the corresponding racial frigate skill to at least III.

(Replace frigate with cruiser, and destroyer with battlecruiser, for that part of it.)

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Metal Mini
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#177 - 2013-02-07 16:52:54 UTC
So much for if you can fly it before you can fly it after. I can currently fly the Mimitar and Amarr command ships but dont have the warfare skills trained at all. If I am reading this right. Once the changes take place I wont be able to fly these ships at all unless I train them. I am ok with most of the changes but this one really pisses me off.
SkyMeetFire
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#178 - 2013-02-07 16:54:37 UTC
I think you need to add something in the blog that explains exactly how 'if you can fly it now, you'll be able to fly it when the skill change happens' works within the game itself. I understand that a ship only looks at the primary skill and that once a skill is injected, the checks for secondary skills is already done, but I think most people in this thread have simply missed that point (even though you say it in the thread). I think too many people just read blog and jump to panic mode in the thread, so writing that clearly in the blog might reduce a little of that.

On to a question to which I don't really expect to like the answer - have you considered if players could petition to be reimbursed for the mining barge skill if they only trained that for an Orca? I can understand somewhat if you decide not to considering that would open the gates to reimbursement on other ships that lose some odd requirements, but I feel like the Orca is odd with it being a lvl 5 ship skill being completely removed. Any thoughts on that?
Green Gambit
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#179 - 2013-02-07 16:54:44 UTC
Ethan Revenant wrote:
Protip: that was the devblog I linked and the context for the parenthetical statement.


Ah sorry yes. I blame the brain damage from reading the same question/response cycle so many times in the thread so far Twisted
Intex Encapor
#180 - 2013-02-07 16:56:41 UTC
bah extra sp will push me up one clone level, i seriously hate you now