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Where's Red Frog an Push on this nerf NPC thing?

Author
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#181 - 2013-02-05 08:27:06 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:


This is a Massively Multiplayer Game, not a Massively Singleplayer Game, and as such, you should be encouraged, even forced, to deal with other people, both in positive and negative ways, while you play it. If you don't want to have to deal with people, I suggest Freelancer or FTL for your Spaceship Game needs.



Like the above, your "solution" is NEVER going to be implemented. What fool would produce a MMO and suggest people to go play something else? Do you really believe EvE is not niche enough already? Shall CCP be downsized to 5 people because your testosterone feels better when you have only kept the "real men worth playing EvE" and told everybody else to go play Freelancer?
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#182 - 2013-02-05 08:28:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
"Banning NPC corps won't work because they'll corphop - fixing NPC corps is futile :smug:"
"So just put an exponentially growing cooldown timer for corphops"
*sputter* "b-b-but all the carebears will leave a-and eve will die"
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#183 - 2013-02-05 08:29:47 UTC
Reuben Johnson wrote:
A lot of threads of late on nerfing NPC Corps. Why? Well, after all the arguemnts for it are dismissed (and they usually are becuase their invalid) two things remain:

1. Wardec. War dec who? miners? nope that never comes up, Traders? nope, be usuless anyways since they don't undock. Pirates/Gankers? nada, they are the ones wanting the nerf. So wardec who? That brings us to ...

2) Haulers. They want to wardec haulers. hmm, that would mean, what they want is to Wardec Red Frog and Push, but that's useless since the only ones in those allaince are the contract brokers. So, in the end, what they want is to attack freighters, particualry those in corps like Red Frog and Push, in Hi-Sec with no recourse from Concord.

They make claims that NPC players have all the rewards with no risk, but they want CCP to give them just that. Give frieght gankers all the reward from attacking freighters in Hi-Sec with none of the risk of being Concorded. The number of hauler alts in NPC Corps is infinently small, but they wish to punish the whole lot over a very small number of players.

since this is neraly all about them, where's Red Frog and Push on this issue. It's you're boats they want.


I'm pretty sure there are more than two entities with NPC corp freighters. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that all corps with a heavy duty logistics backbone use NPC corps.

Regardless, player corps aren't defenceless. They can hire mercenaries or recruit combat pilots. But we wouldn't want freight corps to actually have to guard their money makers, that sounds like a lot of hard work and it's easier to just whinge on the forums about ganking and war dec changes.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#184 - 2013-02-05 08:33:36 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Your opinion is that the inclusion of wardecs (nonconsensual PVP) in EVE online is some sort of fluke and that evasion and subversion of the wardec mechanic is a legitimate and intended part of the game's design

Hello Mr. Fairground Fortune Teller. Don't give up your daytime job

....
My opinion is that wardecs provide a useful means for engaging in PvP in hisec. Evasion of wardecs is human nature: attempting to force people to fight is counter productive.

Sounds like I was right on the money.
Where I play, people "force fights" regularly upon one another. The difference is there's consequences for declining.
And surprisingly, EVE there isn't dead.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#185 - 2013-02-05 08:36:11 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Like the above, your "solution" is NEVER going to be implemented. What fool would produce a MMO and suggest people to go play something else?

CCP Wrangler wrote:
EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#186 - 2013-02-05 08:38:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
I'll post here what I just posted in another thread:

Repeat after me people: There is more to PvP than pew pew.

It's something that boggles my mind that so many people seem to have an utter lack of appreciation for. Either that, or they do have it but ignore it because all they want to do is hammer the loot pinyata that is an office fit carebear, but without paying the concord costs.



/sigh. I'd have more sympathy for the debate if suicide ganking wasn't possible - but it is. Non consensual PvP is very much in force, you just have to be prepared to suck up the price - are you?


"Oh they affect my game and my precious economy". Just what the hell do you think big station traders, never undocking, are doing when they manipulate a market? Perhaps you'd like a "force undock" button to boot them out of the station?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#187 - 2013-02-05 08:40:58 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Ah the "carebear dollar" myth, where the baseless assertion that people who are absolutely PVP-intolerant form a significant part of the CCP's bottom line is pushed forward, despite riskfree PvE expansions that catered to these people correlating with little growth and being considered failures.


I don't recall "PvE expansions"

Tyrannis, Incursion

didn't really read past that point since I figured it was more of what I just quoted
hth


Tyrannis a PvE expansion? Then let's call implementing moons in nullsec PvE too.

Every PI item I sell is money I take and compete for with someone else. There's no "blue loot" here, no NPCs to buy it.

Outside hi sec it's possible to shoot the PI structure, to make people pay "rental" and so on. Actually those structures are "PVP enablers" like gates and stations so I can't really see what you are trying to say.


Incursions, they *start* PvE based but and I don't recall such expansion dropping bunch of subscriptions.
Incursions are actually a *move away* from single player content some guy resent so much.
Incursions have been impacted by rogue RR, hostile invasions and what's not.
Incursions spawn outside of hi sec too as well where there's all the PvP possible.

So what he heck are you saying?


Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

didn't really read past that point since I figured it was more of what I just quoted
hth


It's OK, you were not going to accept differing opinions anyway, your path is set and strong.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#188 - 2013-02-05 08:42:49 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Like the above, your "solution" is NEVER going to be implemented. What fool would produce a MMO and suggest people to go play something else?

CCP Wrangler wrote:
EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for.


Hey if you want I can also quote politic propaganda, advertisments, pyramidal schemes samples and so on.

Words are nothing, money talks. Call me back once CCP actually follow up their words, ok? Blink
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#189 - 2013-02-05 08:45:20 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
I'll post here what I just posted in another thread:

Repeat after me people: There is more to PvP than pew pew.
Right and I'm the only one here (except for an enlightened few) who is capable of acknowledging that. I am trying to educate people here that EVE is at heart a sandbox based on a PvP-driven and centric economy, and that players who are "declining PvP" are doing anything but, their input and impact effecting all other players.
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
#190 - 2013-02-05 08:45:28 UTC
Yes, remove Concord and lower hisec to you know what. And the all them pvp leet forum warriors will complain about empty ex-hisec.

Odyssey: Repacking in POS hangars for modules +1,  but please for other stuff too, especially containers. Make containers openable in POS hangars.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#191 - 2013-02-05 08:47:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Ah the "carebear dollar" myth, where the baseless assertion that people who are absolutely PVP-intolerant form a significant part of the CCP's bottom line is pushed forward, despite riskfree PvE expansions that catered to these people correlating with little growth and being considered failures.


I don't recall "PvE expansions"

Tyrannis, Incursion

didn't really read past that point since I figured it was more of what I just quoted
hth


Tyrannis a PvE expansion? Then let's call implementing moons in nullsec PvE too.

Every PI item I sell is money I take and compete for with someone else

The market was an EVE feature that existed before Tyrannis. The EVE release that introduced the market was a PvP feature, Tyrannis was not.

Quote:

Outside hi sec it's possible to shoot the PI structure, to make people pay "rental" and so on. Actually those structures are "PVP enablers" like gates and stations so I can't really see what you are trying to say.

POCOs were not introduced with Tyrannis. That was put in the Crucible expansion. That's why Crucible was a successful expansion and Tyrannis was a riskfree PvE expansion that exposed the "carebear dollar" myth that riskfree PvE = $$$

hth
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#192 - 2013-02-05 08:51:50 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Where I play, people "force fights" regularly upon one another. The difference is there's consequences for declining.


Individual players often choose to get out of that form of PvP: they leave the alliance, or simply refuse to log in on their nullsec characters until they're ready to be someone else's peons for a night. There are no consequences for not logging in on your nullsec corp character beyond potentially being booted from the corp.

Those fights that you are talking about are easily evaded with "didn't want that sov anyway." The "consequence" is that you lose territory, which you can then claim back the next week when the invader has spent their energy and is busy carebearing it up.

But please, continue telling me how hisec wardecs are like nullsec sovereignty warfare.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#193 - 2013-02-05 08:53:52 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Like the above, your "solution" is NEVER going to be implemented. What fool would produce a MMO and suggest people to go play something else?

CCP Wrangler wrote:
EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for.


Hey if you want I can also quote politic propaganda, advertisments, pyramidal schemes samples and so on.

Words are nothing, money talks. Call me back once CCP actually follow up their words, ok? Blink

After carebear catering nearly killed EVE by alienating its decidedly non-"PvE only" playerbase, each and every EVE expansion has been focused towards enhancing PvP/emergent content content and mechanics, with things like POCOs (as you pointed out) and datacores being moved to FW so resources are geared towards those with risks. I'll keep pushing the removal of NPC corps and you're right, we'll see.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#194 - 2013-02-05 08:56:09 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
I'll post here what I just posted in another thread:

Repeat after me people: There is more to PvP than pew pew.
Right and I'm the only one here (except for an enlightened few) who is capable of acknowledging that. I am trying to educate people here that EVE is at heart a sandbox based on a PvP-driven and centric economy, and that players who are "declining PvP" are doing anything but, their input and impact effecting all other players.



You miss my point - they are not declining PvP - they are declining PewPew. There is a difference.

Take a mission bear, what do they do? They convert LP to isk - that applied ratio is PvP. They buy ammo - those orders are PvP. You see where I'm going.

The only thing which is not PvP, are bounties and mission rewards - but the game needs isk faucets - just like mining is.

All they are denying you, is the opportunity to shoot them without concord. That is not all that a significant thing, really. Especially given the typical multi-billion isk hull that a dedicated mission bear rolls around in - a single suicide can be absolutely devastating for them.

I just don't see an actual problem here.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#195 - 2013-02-05 09:01:54 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:

Those fights that you are talking about are easily evaded with "didn't want that sov anyway." The "consequence" is that you lose territory, which you can then claim back the next week when the invader has spent their energy and is busy carebearing it up.
Hm yes, you merely lose billions and infrastructure in assets and station access for not fighting, other then that consequence free.

Mara Rinn wrote:
But please, continue telling me how hisec wardecs are like nullsec sovereignty warfare.
They aren't, never said they were. You were claiming that if players couldn't 'NPC corp' out of PVP it would be some sort of gamekiller, despite nearly 100k EVE players thriving in such a scenario.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#196 - 2013-02-05 09:08:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Morrigan LeSante wrote:


You miss my point - they are not declining PvP - they are declining PewPew. There is a difference.

Take a mission bear, what do they do? They convert LP to isk - that applied ratio is PvP. They buy ammo - those orders are PvP. You see where I'm going.
Correct, they're competing against other players who do take risks (and NPC corps make engaging socially and cooperating in an MMO as 'needless risk') and lower the competitive bar towards ISK making in EVE to a level where not evading wardecs or engaging in any nonconsensual PvP becomes a competitive disadvantage. This is bad economically for many reasons, mainly because the rampant devaluation of ISk and commodities harms casuals and newbies as cumulative risk-free wealth is endlessly cycled into generating more wealth, creating increasing barriers between rich and poor - the ability to predate on wealthy targets, or the wealthy having to purchase protection no longer a constraint on this. It is also bad gamewise as mindless asocial isk farming is not a good recipe fun gameplay. And it's bad economically as CCP's NPE research is overwhelmingly pushing highsec player corporations like EVE UNI and RvB in order to retain newbies, something that wasn't happening with the boring but mechanically overwhelmingly advantageous NPC corp model.

You claim it is fine because of 'suicide ganking', but suicide ganking is not a risk so much as a calculation- anyone capable of basic math is able to avoid exceeding the ratio where ganking a ship becomes profitable. So "suicide ganking" is not an acceptable 'all the PvP needed in highsec".
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#197 - 2013-02-05 09:10:32 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

The market was an EVE feature that existed before Tyrannis. The EVE release that introduced the market was a PvP feature, Tyrannis was not.


Tyrannis added products to the markets. It's an expansion to the markets and to manufacturing, both of which are not PvE.

In the "PVE" Tyrannis the only other thing you can find on a planet is... other players structures that compete with your extraction. That's a lot of PvE we got here.


Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:


POCOs were not introduced with Tyrannis. That was put in the Crucible expansion. That's why Crucible was a successful expansion and Tyrannis was a riskfree PvE expansion that exposed the "carebear dollar" myth that riskfree PvE = $$$

hth


Tyrannis was a sheet expansion like WiS but it was not "PvE" and lol at crucible being succesful "because of POCOs". Crucible improved TiDi, frigates, changed timers, changed sky backgrounds, introduced T3 BCs just to say a subset of stuff. That's a bit "more" than POCOs.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#198 - 2013-02-05 09:12:21 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
That's why Crucible was a successful expansion and Tyrannis was a riskfree PvE expansion that exposed the "carebear dollar" myth that riskfree PvE = $$$


The only "care bear dollar" story that I'm aware of is the idea that if you take away too much PvE, players will drop their PvE alts.

I'm sure that if decent PvE was introduced to the game, there would be new players subscribing for the new PvE experience. Quantum Rise and Incursion caused a decent increase in active players. So your little theory about PvE expansions not being good for subscriber numbers is easily falsified. Quantum Rise introduced the Orca, Incursion introduced group PvE.

Then there's Dominion, which didn't pull in more people: in fact, I think you'll find that most of nullsec still hates Dominion. Cool teaser video, awful Sov 2.0 implementation. So there's another blow to your theory: PvP focussed expansions do not always pull in more players. I would suggest that cool stuff pulls in new players. Incarna was not cool. The Orca was awesome. New shiny ships, rebalanced frigates: that was awesome. Sovereignty 2.0 can go die in a hole. Tyrannis introduced circles and lines in space: a rather lame UI that added nothing to the game play of EVE Online.

I would suggest that Dominion has had the worst impact on EVE game play ever, even including Incarna, regardless of impact on subscriber numbers. "We're getting rid of POS bashing!" *players cheer* "We're replacing POS bashing with bigger structure bashing!" *players beat their heads against a brick wall*.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#199 - 2013-02-05 09:15:47 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
You were claiming that if players couldn't 'NPC corp' out of PVP it would be some sort of gamekiller, despite nearly 100k EVE players thriving in such a scenario.


You're claiming people never opt out of nullsec PvP. The reason nullsec warfare continues is because at least as many people are joining nullsec alliances as are abandoning the. Tell me you have no churn in null sec? Do nullsec residents never take time off to go carebear it up on their hisec mission running alts?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#200 - 2013-02-05 09:16:48 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

After carebear catering nearly killed EVE by alienating its decidedly non-"PvE only" playerbase, each and every EVE expansion has been focused towards enhancing PvP/emergent content content and mechanics, with things like POCOs (as you pointed out) and datacores being moved to FW so resources are geared towards those with risks. I'll keep pushing the removal of NPC corps and you're right, we'll see.


There's *one* expansion that killed 20% of EvE's developers and that's an utter failure because it was 6 months wasted, totally failed "promises" plus a not asked by anybody "pay 2 win" shop later nerfed to "shiny pants shop".

Tell me what "PvE" do you see in a damn, one room that manages to kill framerate while adding gigabytes of useless stuff to download.

Those interested in "avatars in game" (not me) wanted something like Mass Effect 3 but EvE flavour, maybe with shooting each other at the bar or sneaking in drugs. Or exploring abandoned outposts.... all features CCP always described with opponents being able to come in and fight.

1st person <> PvE.