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Where's Red Frog an Push on this nerf NPC thing?
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Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#121 - 2013-02-05 05:17:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tallian Saotome
Aren Madigan wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Assuming that the book is immediately accessible at the time and that their new corp wouldn't be immediately decced to get at them and assuming that the NPC corp players would work together to break a gank (hint, it rarely works out that way). You're assuming things are going in an idealistic fashion that just isn't the case, or you're pretending to believe it in hopes that it'll change CCP's view, who are smart enough to identify these sort of issues, and have in fact probably seen them before, thus why they have these things in place in the first place.

if somehow you are in a noob station, the book will be available, as they are seeded there. If you are not in a noob station, then the point is moot anyway because you aren't at this magic camp.

And it frequently works that way, thats how people form player corps, which is kinda what is being encouraged here(get out of the NPC corps, they should NOT be shelters).


Yes, because I'm sure its only the "noob systems" that'd be camped... totally. Not a short sighted prospect at all. Give me a break.... also frequently working that way does not make it the majority of the time, and forcing it is the worst possible thing you can do. Point is there's no legitimate reason to target an NPC corp as a whole. Plenty of legitimate reasons to attack members within it for one thing or another, but you really don't have a case beyond the actions of individuals and forcing people to play your way. If its about those individual actions, that's what the focus should be on countering not because "oh, they should join a player corp so I can gank em." The game doesn't revolve around you. Ideas that revolve around your playstyle and rejects everyone elses without cause are going to end up rejected. Simple as that, and that's exactly what this does. It won't be about going after that hauler, or that trespasser, or whatever, it'll be all about farming easy kills without consequences. No one should be so blind as to see that it'd be any other way.

Do some homework before you make claims about someone.

The only time I have ever PVP'd in highsec was during legit wardecs. I am not a ganker, nor do I have any real desire to be a ganker. What I want is for the game to be level, and non-noob NPC corps provide a safe haven that protects people who have no business being protected.

I say wardec the whole NPC corp vs wardeccing individual characters for 2 reasons. The ability to wardec an individual sets a bad precedent, and would ultimately be primarily a tool used for harrassment and griefing of individuals, and it allows someone who really doesn't have a home the ability to try and make some actual friends in the NPC corp to try and fight. This is what we like to call 'emergent gameplay' since those people are likely to remain friends, and end up working together in the future.

This is a Massively Multiplayer Game, not a Massively Singleplayer Game, and as such, you should be encouraged, even forced, to deal with other people, both in positive and negative ways, while you play it. If you don't want to have to deal with people, I suggest Freelancer or FTL for your Spaceship Game needs.

edit: fixing broken quotes.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#122 - 2013-02-05 05:20:50 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Characters that never undock are effectively irrelevant to any discussion of wardecs Blink


Yet you counted them.

I also counted people who's subs are not active. I assume that people are intelligent enough to realize we do not have more precise figures, or I would have used those.

You are intelligent enough to realize this, correct?

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#123 - 2013-02-05 05:23:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
If someone in an NPC corp undocks, they can be ganked. There is no need for a wardec. In most cases a suicide gank is the only way you will catch them because a wardec will send them turtling or corp hopping.

One way of levelling the playing field would be to remove wardecs. There are aspects of the game that can be altered to make "hiding" in an NPC corp irrelevant: removing mineral compression, putting restrictions on the number of market orders or volume of contents in a station, or restricting flow of traffic through gates. None of these require a means to "legitimately" attack that NPC corp member.

The focus on wardecing NPC corps or somehow forcing players into PvP is entirely misguided.

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EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#124 - 2013-02-05 05:23:54 UTC
How many suicide tornados does it take to kill a POS?
Lilan Kahn
The Littlest Hobos
The Whale Hunters Association
#125 - 2013-02-05 05:24:53 UTC
We just want to war dec people so we can shoot them.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#126 - 2013-02-05 05:25:47 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
If someone in an NPC corp undocks, they can be ganked. There is no need for a wardec. In most cases a suicide gank is the only way you will catch them because a wardec will send them turtling or corp hopping.

One way of levelling the playing field would be to remove wardecs.

A much better way would be to remove CONCORD.

Not everyone wants to suicide gank, some people like their PVP to have an element of actual fighting, or at least the potential for it. As I already said, I have never engaged in PVP in highsec outside of wardecs, and I don't feel I should have to do so to interdict supplies to someone I am camping into a station while I have them wardecced.

Why are you obsessed with ganking as the solution to everything?

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2013-02-05 05:26:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Aren Madigan
I don't care who you are or what you do, so I had no homework to do. I'm only stating what your views WILL do. Not to mention you already have to deal with people without wardeccing, just not in the way you'd like. Hell, I'm against direct wardecs against individuals, I am for expanding kill rights though to essentially be a wardec on the basis of they made the first blow, now you have the choice to esculate it *shrugs*. And to pay you the same respect as you tried to pay me, if you don't like how the system in this game works, go play something else. You're the one with a problem with the current state of things, why should your whims be the ones bowed down to and everyone else have to leave? Hmm? Maybe think about that next time you try to use that as an argument. PvP isn't the only way to interact with people.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#128 - 2013-02-05 05:28:08 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Characters that never undock are effectively irrelevant to any discussion of wardecs Blink


Yet you counted them.

I also counted people who's subs are not active. I assume that people are intelligent enough to realize we do not have more precise figures, or I would have used those.

You are intelligent enough to realize this, correct?


You're the one using trading alts to boost the number of active NPC corp members to make it sound like an NPC corp would be a force to be reckoned with.

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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#129 - 2013-02-05 05:28:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
If someone in an NPC corp undocks, they can be ganked. There is no need for a wardec. In most cases a suicide gank is the only way you will catch them because a wardec will send them turtling or corp hopping.

Why are you obsessed with ganking as the solution to everything?

Because anyone capable of basic math can make themselves immune to being ganked for profit, and Mara wants to pretend it as a compromise to his real goal which is purely consensual PvP in highsec. Oh, don't want to pay 600m to shoot at a freighter in highsec? I guess ganking is too hard.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#130 - 2013-02-05 05:31:30 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
You're the one with a problem with the current state of things, why should your whims be the ones bowed down to and everyone else have to leave? Hmm? Maybe think about that next time you try to use that as an argument.


Wardecs are widely known to be broken, we are trying to have a discussion about how to fix them. How about you join in by presenting a valid argument?
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#131 - 2013-02-05 05:32:32 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Not everyone wants to suicide gank, some people like their PVP to have an element of actual fighting, or at least the potential for it


So head to lowsec or nullsec where you don't have to worry about CONCORD or wardecs or NPC corps. You will not be able to interdict supplies unless you know who is shipping supplies in. I don't understand why you think that this would be a possibility.

Tallian Saotome wrote:
Why are you obsessed with ganking as the solution to everything?


Suicide ganking works. Wardecs do not work as a means of interdicting supply routes: they are trivially bypassed.

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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#132 - 2013-02-05 05:35:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Mara Rinn wrote:
Suicide ganking works. Wardecs do not work as a means of interdicting supply routes: they are trivially bypassed.
Due to wardec evasion. Even the most trivial effort in intel gathering could find logistics alt corps to shoot at. Fix wardec evasion and you can shoot at all the 0.0 supply freighters you wanted, or they could start escorting them. But considering your present concern about nullsec alliances 'hotdropping your frig gang' is what's keeping you out of 0.0 and 'taking the fight to the enemy'...
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#133 - 2013-02-05 05:36:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Because anyone capable of basic math can make themselves immune to being ganked for profit, and Mara wants to pretend it as a compromise to his real goal which is purely consensual PvP in highsec. Oh, don't want to pay 600m to shoot at a freighter in highsec? I guess ganking is too hard.


My goal is neither immunity from ganking nor purely consensual PvP. My goal is to have people think about their ill-conceived ideas for "solving" problems, and perhaps paying more attention to what those problems actually are.

The simplest problem statement I can come up with here is, "I cannot shoot that freighter without consequences."

That escapes part of the problem which is, why do I want to shoot the freighter? Why is the freighter operating in the safety of hisec? Why is hisec so highly populated? Why aren't there more people in lowsec?

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Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#134 - 2013-02-05 05:36:42 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
I don't care who you are or what you do, so I had no homework to do. I'm only stating what your views WILL do. Not to mention you already have to deal with people without wardeccing, just not in the way you'd like. Hell, I'm against direct wardecs against individuals, I am for expanding kill rights though to essentially be a wardec on the basis of they made the first blow, now you have the choice to esculate it *shrugs*. And to pay you the same respect as you tried to pay me, if you don't like how the system in this game works, go play something else. You're the one with a problem with the current state of things, why should your whims be the ones bowed down to and everyone else have to leave? Hmm? Maybe think about that next time you try to use that as an argument. PvP isn't the only way to interact with people.

Don't slander my name by calling me a ganker if you can't back it up with fact. Don't attack people in a personal way that way unless you are ready to get flamed.

You are right, PVP isn't the only way. Hence why I was referring to making friends when I was talking about interacting. Reading comprehension is your friend.

Why do you think I am fighting for a change? Did I start this thread? I am discussing changes other people have proposed, and in one case trying to make a suggestion that is considerably less insane than alot of the other things I have seen, as a 'middle ground'. None of this is going to happen, there will never be an actual NPC corp nerf, no matter how much it is desired, but it is fun to discuss.

The only change I would really fight for at all is letting me bring my cap fleet to highsec, since I love flying capships, and am not currently in a political situation that allows me to fly mine. No point in even trying to fight that fight tho, since it would cause incredible backlash against CCP from carebears who already think that PVPers can bring too much firepower to bear on them.

I LIKE the friends I make, and the grudges people have, the hate is what makes EVE work, and letting people hide from that is a failing, both in game design and in those people.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2013-02-05 05:39:48 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
You're the one with a problem with the current state of things, why should your whims be the ones bowed down to and everyone else have to leave? Hmm? Maybe think about that next time you try to use that as an argument.


Wardecs are widely known to be broken, we are trying to have a discussion about how to fix them. How about you join in by presenting a valid argument?

I've already said I agree with that, presented some ideas about why it is a few times in the thread, BUT that doesn't mean anything is acceptable. Just because I don't have a fully solid idea how to fix them does not mean that I shouldn't argue against things that'd just make the overall state of things worse and lead to exactly what CCP wants to prevent in high sec. Plus most of that statement was more mocking his statement about going to play something else, which frankly is never really a valid statement. Thus why I was trying to make a point on how it can be turned around and thrown right back at a person. Really the most solid idea I have right now is again, expanding kill rights. Find a way to apply them to things that yeah, you should legitimately be able to attack. I'm not entirely sure a good way to go about that yet especially with how encouraged alt accounts are. I just know that the suggestions you guys are making? Aren't it. At all.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#136 - 2013-02-05 05:40:54 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Even the most trivial effort in intel gathering could find logistics alt corps to shoot at.


I don't see NPC corps on those lists.

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Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#137 - 2013-02-05 05:45:20 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Not everyone wants to suicide gank, some people like their PVP to have an element of actual fighting, or at least the potential for it


So head to lowsec or nullsec where you don't have to worry about CONCORD or wardecs or NPC corps. You will not be able to interdict supplies unless you know who is shipping supplies in. I don't understand why you think that this would be a possibility.

Tallian Saotome wrote:
Why are you obsessed with ganking as the solution to everything?


Suicide ganking works. Wardecs do not work as a means of interdicting supply routes: they are trivially bypassed.

By NPC corp characters that can't be wardecced.

If I am camping you into a station, and I see one NPC freighter dock up, I can wardec said NPC corp and deal with it in the future, same as I would currently if I saw a freighter from a PC corp.

You are saying our fixes don't work because they are a solution to the problem they are to fix, which makes no sense at all.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2013-02-05 05:56:52 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
I don't care who you are or what you do, so I had no homework to do. I'm only stating what your views WILL do. Not to mention you already have to deal with people without wardeccing, just not in the way you'd like. Hell, I'm against direct wardecs against individuals, I am for expanding kill rights though to essentially be a wardec on the basis of they made the first blow, now you have the choice to esculate it *shrugs*. And to pay you the same respect as you tried to pay me, if you don't like how the system in this game works, go play something else. You're the one with a problem with the current state of things, why should your whims be the ones bowed down to and everyone else have to leave? Hmm? Maybe think about that next time you try to use that as an argument. PvP isn't the only way to interact with people.

Don't slander my name by calling me a ganker if you can't back it up with fact. Don't attack people in a personal way that way unless you are ready to get flamed.

You are right, PVP isn't the only way. Hence why I was referring to making friends when I was talking about interacting. Reading comprehension is your friend.

Why do you think I am fighting for a change? Did I start this thread? I am discussing changes other people have proposed, and in one case trying to make a suggestion that is considerably less insane than alot of the other things I have seen, as a 'middle ground'. None of this is going to happen, there will never be an actual NPC corp nerf, no matter how much it is desired, but it is fun to discuss.

The only change I would really fight for at all is letting me bring my cap fleet to highsec, since I love flying capships, and am not currently in a political situation that allows me to fly mine. No point in even trying to fight that fight tho, since it would cause incredible backlash against CCP from carebears who already think that PVPers can bring too much firepower to bear on them.

I LIKE the friends I make, and the grudges people have, the hate is what makes EVE work, and letting people hide from that is a failing, both in game design and in those people.


If you want to take things personally, that's fine, the statement stands though. There is no reason beyond ganking to want to attack an NPC corp as a whole. There really isn't. And frankly, it doesn't hide them from that hate. It just makes it harder to get at them. If I were to draw a real life comparison, you punch someone in the face irl because you hate them, you get arrested. On EVE, you get your ship blown up. In otherwords, your actions have a consequence, just not one someone might like. And again, as I've stated, I think there should be some workarounds, but not at the detriment of everyone else. High sec doesn't need to be turned into essentially low/null sec. It should be relatively harsh on the aggressors while still giving them some room to act. That's why its high sec.
Archer Codename Duchess
Doomheim
#139 - 2013-02-05 05:59:50 UTC
NPC corps don't need nerfed. It's easy to take out your enemies haulers/players. It's called a bounty. If it's high enough the benefit to a suicide ganker can be rather large especially when you consider the price of a freighter and what the pay out for busting a high bounty on a freighter pilot could be. This is not even mentioning the cargo. Problem has already been solved.....NEXT.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#140 - 2013-02-05 06:00:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Tallian Saotome wrote:
If I am camping you into a station, and I see one NPC freighter dock up, I can wardec said NPC corp and deal with it in the future, same as I would currently if I saw a freighter from a PC corp.

You are saying our fixes don't work because they are a solution to the problem they are to fix, which makes no sense at all.


You would wardec corps because someone docked at a station with a freighter?

So anyone wardecced by you should hole up in Dodixie or Hek, yeah?

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