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Tornado or Oracle? And, in a larger sense, Minmatar or Amarr?
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Provence Tristram
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-02-04 12:53:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Provence Tristram
I want to start out by admitting that I am a newb. Period. I've done a lot of reading on the game, but my knowledge is academic rather than practical. I've been blowing things up in frigates, but given the dozens and dozens of videos I have watched on Youtube, I am well aware that this is hardly indicative of the greater game.

With that being said, I'm trying to make up my mind on some big decisions. While I know that there are tons and tons of juicy shared skills between the two, I have reached a point when I need to pick between Amarr and Minmatar, and am having a hard time choosing. My ultimate goal would be to one day become a fleet sniper and, depending on the situation, fly either a T3 BC or a BB. Presently, I am waffling back and forth between the Oracle and the Tornado as a 'goal' to shoot for, and after several hours of research, am still where I started.

The 'cool appearance' of artillery, and 'cool appearance of Amarr ships' aside (since I understand that asthetics mean bumpkiss here), I need help choosing between one race's ships or the other, and the associated laser/projectile weaponry. I know that the 'Nado, like all Arty-based high-DPS vessels benefits from alpha damage, but that the Oracle likely has higher theoretical DPS. I also know that the Oracle has tracking issues, and the 'Nado is faster. Thanks to this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=46079 I've seen the pros and cons of the two ships stacked up against each other. However, that has lead me to two questions:

1) The last post in that thread was dated almost a year ago. Has anything significant changed?

2) In the grander scheme of things, beyond the Oracle vs. Tornado debate, are there other reasons to pick one race and their associated ships/weapon types over the other?

Thanks for any and all help you can offer me.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#2 - 2013-02-04 13:14:36 UTC
Easy answer, skill both

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-02-04 13:15:48 UTC
1) No, but CCP is doing a balance pass over *everything* so they could change. Having said that I don't expect them to change much.

2) Although artillery fleets do get some use, you will get more mileage out of training large T2 lasers than large T2 artillery. T2 pulse lasers with Scorch are an extremely common fleet weapon because of their excellent range, tracking and damage. They are the longest range 'short range' turret weapon (i.e. out of blasters, autocannons and pulse lasers). This gives them the tracking and damage of the 'short range' weapons, with decent range.

T2 pulse laser abbadon fleets with guardians are *very* common.
Armor HAC fleets (i.e. T2 pulse zealots) pretty common.

The downside is that smaller lasers are competitive but not fantastic. They have seen some love in the recent patches, but I would say that Gallente probably came out on top in T1 frigates and cruisers.
Provence Tristram
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-02-04 13:19:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Provence Tristram
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
The downside is that smaller lasers are competitive but not fantastic. They have seen some love in the recent patches, but I would say that Gallente probably came out on top in T1 frigates and cruisers.

I've been mostly sitting in Jita watching the pretty ships float by. No, seriously. Smile I don't think the ISK-to-work ratio for level 1s is... well... worth it. Ugh I'll probably hit combat harder when I have the skills to fit a cruiser for level 2s.
Darius Brinn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-02-04 13:19:15 UTC
Provence Tristram wrote:
I want to start out by admitting that I am a newb. Period. I've done a lot of reading on the game, but my knowledge is academic rather than practical. I've been blowing things up in frigates, but given the dozens and dozens of videos I have watched on Youtube, I am well aware that this is hardly indicative of the greater game.

With that being said, I'm trying to make up my mind on some big decisions. While I know that there are tons and tons of juicy shared skills between the two, I have reached a point when I need to pick between Amarr and Minmatar, and am having a hard time choosing. My ultimate goal would be to one day become a fleet sniper and, depending on the situation, fly either a T3 BC or a BB. Presently, I am waffling back and forth between the Oracle and the Tornado as a 'goal' to shoot for, and after several hours of research, am still where I started.

The 'cool appearance' of artillery, and 'cool appearance of Amarr ships' aside (since I understand that asthetics mean bumpkiss here), I need help choosing between one race's ships or the other, and the associated laser/projectile weaponry. I know that the 'Nado, like all Arty-based high-DPS vessels benefits from alpha damage, but that the Oracle likely has higher theoretical DPS. I also know that the Oracle has tracking issues, and the 'Nado is faster. Thanks to this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=46079 I've seen the pros and cons of the two ships stacked up against each other. However, that has lead me to two questions:

1) The last post in that thread was dated almost a year ago. Has anything significant changed?

2) In the grander scheme of things, beyond the Oracle vs. Tornado debate, are there other reasons to pick one race and their associated ships/weapon types over the other?

Thanks for any and all help you can offer me.


Both ships are very good as snipers. Artilleries have the advantage of alpha, which is awesome when all you can do is align, lock, press F1 and GTFO very, very quickly. However, I hear that Oracles and Nagas get into more fleet doctrines.

The good thing about both hulls is that they share most of the requirements, so crosstraining is very fast:

-You just need racial cruiser III (soon IV when BC changes hit Tranquility) to fly both ships.
-All support is shared.

So it's just a matter of 20ish days (depending on skills) training the appropiate Large guns and Beam/Artillery specialization. Hardly a commitment.

If I had to choose, I'd say Tornado because it's faster, it has more mids, Alpha rocks, and it works better with T1 guns so you can start rocking it around earlier.

But they are both great, really. You can't go wrong with any of them.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#6 - 2013-02-04 14:25:26 UTC
The Tornado is a good ship. The rebalance, however, is not being kind to Minmatar.
Skorpynekomimi
#7 - 2013-02-04 16:30:02 UTC
Both, I'd say. Once you have the specific turret skills, gunnery support skills apply to all turrets.

Economic PVP
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#8 - 2013-02-04 17:02:48 UTC
Provence Tristram wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
The downside is that smaller lasers are competitive but not fantastic. They have seen some love in the recent patches, but I would say that Gallente probably came out on top in T1 frigates and cruisers.

I've been mostly sitting in Jita watching the pretty ships float by. No, seriously. Smile I don't think the ISK-to-work ratio for level 1s is... well... worth it. Ugh I'll probably hit combat harder when I have the skills to fit a cruiser for level 2s.

Just so you know, L2's can be done in destroyers with moderately low skills, probably in a frigate fairly easily even, as long as you know what you're doing.

As far as the Oracle vs Tornado question:
Unlock both as soon as you can. You'll want to get every racial cruiser up to 3 (and with it of course is frigates to 4) and you'll want both destroyer and battlecruiser to 4, even 5 if possible. They've said that in the future they're splitting the Battlecruiser and Destroyer skills up into racial variants. So if you do it now, you'll have all of them to that level when the change hits (more than likely).

But as it is, literally the only skills not shared between the Oracle and Tornado are: projectile weapon skills and energy weapon skills (and of course Controlled Bursts).

They can both be tanked either armour or shields. They both use the same ship skill (Battlecruiser). All gunnery skills (aside from controlled bursts) are shared. When you've trained for one, you're very close to the other. The training to get racial cruiser 3 from having no racial frigate at all is only like... 2 days so the crosstrain time is insignificant. Simply pick a weapon system you like, and go from there.

As for the questions:
1) Not as far as I know.
2) In the grander scheme of things, the energy weapon skills see somewhat more use due to Napoc (foxcat) fleets and how great the Abaddon is in fleets. However I have seen use of arty maels in fleets as well, so there are instances where you'll see your projectile skills being used. But for the smaller weapon systems both can work. A lot of people are saying the Minmatar are getting nerfed hard but though they aren't great at anything, they aren't as bad as people are saying. A lot of the smaller Amarr ships got buffed but most of the key issues with the Amarr ships still remain (not enough mids to tackle, bad cap, poor tracking, etc.) so they're also middle of the road. Pick which you will. It's hard to make a decision like this.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#9 - 2013-02-04 18:14:46 UTC
Hmmm. I've put some recent thought into this myself, so I'll share my thinking. It's primarily centered around mid range kiting and engaging much larger gangs of HACs/BCs/BSs. Frigate defense is always something to consider as well, but the Talos wins that contest hands down.

Tornado
- Faster and more agile
- Just the right number of mids (arguably one too many, but it works out because you can fit dual web or a TD)
- Capless guns
- Not enough lows
- Tracking D425s is pretty great, but the damage projection is just flat bad.
- Cheaper ammo for regular PVP

Oracle
- Great raw damage
- Great damage projection
- EM damage, which is fantastic against kiting ships
- Has enough lows for the requisite mods
- Has barely enough mids, but could really use one more
- People are more willing to fight Oracles than Tornados

I personally have a strong preference to the Oracle over the Tornado, but I'll probably buckle down and buy a few of them as well.

With regards to sniping, the Tornado is absolute king. Most of the time the Oracles in fleet don't even get a chance to finish locking before the Tornados have alphad the target.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Ginger Barbarella
#10 - 2013-02-04 18:59:35 UTC
Long-range lazors rock... (Not a fan of close-range pulse) All projectile rocks, and the damage put out from T2 arty just makes me giggle like a giddy school-girl. Twisted

No big ol' analysis necessary. Just starting out, go projectile. When time permits after hitting T2 weps/ammo and frigates/dessies at L5, look into training up T2 lazors.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#11 - 2013-02-05 10:43:02 UTC
Nano Oracles are very good in small gang engagements, Pulse also has the advantage of being used on Zealots/Foxcats/Hellcats.

Nados and Nagas are better in Larger engagements due to superior range, better scaling and alpha, as well as a stiffer tank.

Its really preference, I fly both Amarr and Minmatar, and they are both excellent in small, medium and large scale engagements.
Provence Tristram
Doomheim
#12 - 2013-02-05 11:46:47 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Nano Oracles are very good in small gang engagements, Pulse also has the advantage of being used on Zealots/Foxcats/Hellcats.

Nados and Nagas are better in Larger engagements due to superior range, better scaling and alpha, as well as a stiffer tank.

Its really preference, I fly both Amarr and Minmatar, and they are both excellent in small, medium and large scale engagements.



What, generally, would you say the range difference is between an Oracle and a Tornado fitted to snipe? Battleclinic Oracle snipers seem to be a very popular build, so it must be somewhat effective in that regard, right?
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#13 - 2013-02-05 11:58:49 UTC
Amarr ships are generally extremelly inflexible and a lot of them are pretty **** and only sort of work because scorch is stupidly powerful.


You will get way way more useful ships if you train minmatar than if you train amarr (And i'm saying this as someone who trained next to perfect laser skills before doing any cross training what so ever)


Amarr has some good ships, but in general specializing with them will leave you with many cases of "You're doing that fleet? Uhm i don't have anything that fits that.."

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Hulasikaly Wada
DO.IT
Triumvirate.
#14 - 2013-02-05 11:58:53 UTC
Provence Tristram wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Nano Oracles are very good in small gang engagements, Pulse also has the advantage of being used on Zealots/Foxcats/Hellcats.

Nados and Nagas are better in Larger engagements due to superior range, better scaling and alpha, as well as a stiffer tank.

Its really preference, I fly both Amarr and Minmatar, and they are both excellent in small, medium and large scale engagements.



What, generally, would you say the range difference is between an Oracle and a Tornado fitted to snipe? Battleclinic Oracle snipers seem to be a very popular build, so it must be somewhat effective in that regard, right?


Both can reach well the limit of 254 km with t2 sniper ammo
Tachyons ( Oracle ) will push more dps where the 1400 artillery ( Tornado ) have more alpha but hitting in falloff

Hula
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#15 - 2013-02-05 13:24:42 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Amarr ships are generally extremelly inflexible and a lot of them are pretty **** and only sort of work because scorch is stupidly powerful.


You will get way way more useful ships if you train minmatar than if you train amarr (And i'm saying this as someone who trained next to perfect laser skills before doing any cross training what so ever)


Amarr has some good ships, but in general specializing with them will leave you with many cases of "You're doing that fleet? Uhm i don't have anything that fits that.."


This.

Amarr is specialized, Minmatar is the swiss army knife of ships. Sadly you have to train up all the swiss army knife skills to really be a good Minmatar pilot.

Not today spaghetti.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#16 - 2013-02-05 14:00:42 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Amarr ships are generally extremelly inflexible and a lot of them are pretty **** and only sort of work because scorch is stupidly powerful.


You will get way way more useful ships if you train minmatar than if you train amarr (And i'm saying this as someone who trained next to perfect laser skills before doing any cross training what so ever)


Amarr has some good ships, but in general specializing with them will leave you with many cases of "You're doing that fleet? Uhm i don't have anything that fits that.."


This.

Amarr is specialized, Minmatar is the swiss army knife of ships. Sadly you have to train up all the swiss army knife skills to really be a good Minmatar pilot.


Not this.

Fleet comps that use Amarr;

Hellcats
Foxcats
Zealots
Armour Oracles
Shield Oracles

Minmatar

Maelstroms (Nobody uses them any more, Rokhs are better)
Welpfleet (Canes/Pests)

People that think Amarr are inflexible and not that used are just wrong, and havent really used Amarr all that much.
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
#17 - 2013-02-05 14:07:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralieus
They both are equally effective at what they do and it will basically boil down to which play style you prefer over the other one.

Edit: I know this sounds a little vague but when you get more and more into Eve and fittings the meaning behind my statement will become more apparent.

Oderint Dum Metuant
Provence Tristram
Doomheim
#18 - 2013-02-05 14:21:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Provence Tristram
Aralieus wrote:
They both are equally effective at what they do and it will basically boil down to which play style you prefer over the other one.

Edit: I know this sounds a little vague but when you get more and more into Eve and fittings the meaning behind my statement will become more apparent.


If I squint at your avatar, you look a lot like Patrick Stewart... must... learn... from... Picard's... wisdom!

Basically, from what I gather from yourself and others, there are varying opinions on in which direction to go, but both ships and races represent excellent choices.

I'm presently leaning Amarr. I like the 1400 arties a lot, but something about Amarr feels right to me. I suppose a few million skillpoints from now I may change my mind, but at least all of the support skills are generally shared. It's not like I'd be jumping from missiles to gunnery or something.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#19 - 2013-02-05 15:09:25 UTC
This is the benefit of the gunnery skills, they are largely transferable and all worth doing, I trained ACs and Arties first, however I like pulse lasers a lot more than ACs, I know that much (Dat scorch).
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#20 - 2013-02-05 15:39:41 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Amarr ships are generally extremelly inflexible and a lot of them are pretty **** and only sort of work because scorch is stupidly powerful.


You will get way way more useful ships if you train minmatar than if you train amarr (And i'm saying this as someone who trained next to perfect laser skills before doing any cross training what so ever)


Amarr has some good ships, but in general specializing with them will leave you with many cases of "You're doing that fleet? Uhm i don't have anything that fits that.."


This.

Amarr is specialized, Minmatar is the swiss army knife of ships. Sadly you have to train up all the swiss army knife skills to really be a good Minmatar pilot.


Not this.

Fleet comps that use Amarr;

Hellcats
Foxcats
Zealots
Armour Oracles
Shield Oracles

Minmatar

Maelstroms (Nobody uses them any more, Rokhs are better)
Welpfleet (Canes/Pests)

People that think Amarr are inflexible and not that used are just wrong, and havent really used Amarr all that much.


Yea i meant fleets not massive sovbabyblobs.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

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