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Slight Tweak to Mining.

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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#21 - 2013-02-01 20:15:02 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Celine Chapel wrote:
androch wrote:
what youre asking is for the miner to stop and therefore have less time wasted before you hear the depleted message, that sounds alot like afk mining to me, either way youre not looking at the client youre elsewhere


You don't seem to grasp the concept of "AFK" mining. That means not being there at all. You can't afk mine with a Hulk. Then you would need a miner on a indy. THAT is afk mining.

I am asking for a slight change that will make it slightly less timeconsuming for the real miners. Nothing here would benefit afk miners at all. You would know this if you had ever mined anything. You are clearly a pvp'r or similar that hates miners and everything they say and do. Please go away.


Actually... it would benefit AFKish (inattentive) miners / bots, as they would end up wasting less time mining an empty rock...

If you already have a scanner fit... then use it... The scanner tells you how many units are in the rock, you know how much you mine in a cycle, and so you can do the math to estimate when to turn off the miner because the rock is empty...

Example: Your scan shows the rock has 8000 units of Veldespar in it... You know your strip miner grabs 16000 unites per cycle... So, when your halfway through your cycle, manually cycle your timer to save time and improve your yield/hour.

This is what separates an attentive miner from an inattentive one, and is one of the primary reasons for fitting a survey scanner...



There is no such thing as an AFKish Miner.
It's a Myth invented by James, and your all idiots for believing even a Mack can mine AFK.
AFK is only Ice.

Additionally, this request actually really helps out the newer miners. Barges (rather than Exhumers) only have a single mid slot, and it pretty much needs to be dedicated to tank, otherwise gankers pop you with silly amounts of ease, and since it's such a game, you are going to get gank attempted.

Personally, I'd rather see the Barge bonuses changed to cycle time for the Retriever/Procurer, as it makes the Procurer worth it a lot more if it has a fast cycle time rather than just a huge yield on a single laser, and the skills decreasing yield time would also be nice.
Additionally any change to cycle time actually forces every single miner to be more attentative. Which is what most of you whine that miners aren't, yet the second any miner asks for the system to be made like that, you all whine that it benefits the mythical AFK miner.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#22 - 2013-02-01 20:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Jerrick Chase wrote:
I love spreadsheets but congratulations for missing the point of what I was getting at. If I didn't like to use a spreadsheet, or any spreadsheets for that matter, I wouldn't have made a table specifically for the purpose of giving me the information I need quickly. In this case, telling me how many cycles to run before stopping the strip miner prematurely and moving onto the next rock.

Hoho and guess what else, guess how I get the numbers to put into the spreadsheet of mine that tells me how many cycles I can get out of that asteroid? Thats right you guessed it, with a survey scanner!!



??

Jerrick Chase wrote:


Far as lazy is concerned you're right.


admission of laziness

Jerrick Chase wrote:

I wouldn't need to use an excel sheet anymore to figure out how many cycles till that asteroid is gone.


translation/implication: i like this idea because it means there is another way to mine without my 'super complex' excel sheet . this is mainly good for me because i am lazy

my answer: there is already a simple way to mine without excel sheets

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Jerrick Chase
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-02-01 20:45:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerrick Chase
Daichi Yamato wrote:


if u dnt like using spread sheets u can just:

1.- Figure out how much ore u will take in one cycle by dividing ur yield in m3 by the volume of the desired ore on the show info panel (this can also easily be done by mining a big asteroid once and remembering it, or writing it down if u dnt have a great memory).

2.a- If the amount of ore in the asteroid is less than cycle amount, do not mine. unlock asteroid, lock next asteroid, use scan, whatever.

2.b- If there is equal to or more than double that amount left in the asteroid then start/continue mining that asteroid and re-scan in 3 minutes.

2.c- If the amount in the asteroid is equal to or more than a signle cycle amount but less than double, unlock asteroid mid cycle.

3- U now have approx three minutes to run a scan and select and lock asteroids with ore quantities above a single cycle amount. This way, when the current cycle stops, u can just press f1,f2,f3 on the newly locked asteroids.

4- Rinse and repeat from 2a.b.c. using the scanner to find desirable asteroids.

Hakan MacTrew wrote:

How to calculate the time left on a cycle
Your Mining Lasers/Strip Miners duration is shown when you hover over it. Mentally divide the circumferance by fractions of the duration. Unboosted, a strip miner will run for 3 minutes. Half a cycle is 90 seconds. A third of a cycle is 60 seconds. A quarter of a cycle is 45 seconds. A sixth of a cycle is 30 seconds. An eighth of a cycle is 22.5 seconds.

How to calculate how much of a cycle you need to pull in 'X' amount of ore
Your yield per cycle is shown on your mining device. Get a calculator and work out the volume (in units) you will pull of the various ores you intend to mine. (Use a post-it note on the side of the monitor if you have to, I'm sure you have some pretty coloured crayons for that. You can make a note on the ingame notepad if you have eaten your crayons.)

From this, you can work out roughly how long you need, (or get a calculator if you want if your that anal,) and you can gauge how long to leave the cycle.


^^ Non-lazy ways of mining I guess.

Your ideas of mining is more inefficient than plugging in a number into a cell and getting the amount of cycles until the depletion of an asteroid. My "super complex" sheet is more efficient than your manual ways which only attentive non-lazy miners are capable of achieving, apparently. By figuring out how many cycles I can get from one rock allows me to move onto the next one faster, and faster means paying more attention to what I'm doing.

There is an even simpler way of mining. Let the miner cycle all the way until its done even if there is only a single ore left in the rock. Which brings us full circle back to the original post.

To use an example posted a bit earlier, if there is only 8000 veldspar in the asteroid and your miner can pick up 16000 in an entire cycle, what is it mining for the last 50% of that cycle? Nothing. So I ask, how much damage can be done, hypothetically, to have the miner stop mining when there is technically nothing left in the asteroid?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#24 - 2013-02-01 21:37:29 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Celine Chapel wrote:
androch wrote:
what youre asking is for the miner to stop and therefore have less time wasted before you hear the depleted message, that sounds alot like afk mining to me, either way youre not looking at the client youre elsewhere


You don't seem to grasp the concept of "AFK" mining. That means not being there at all. You can't afk mine with a Hulk. Then you would need a miner on a indy. THAT is afk mining.

I am asking for a slight change that will make it slightly less timeconsuming for the real miners. Nothing here would benefit afk miners at all. You would know this if you had ever mined anything. You are clearly a pvp'r or similar that hates miners and everything they say and do. Please go away.


Actually... it would benefit AFKish (inattentive) miners / bots, as they would end up wasting less time mining an empty rock...

If you already have a scanner fit... then use it... The scanner tells you how many units are in the rock, you know how much you mine in a cycle, and so you can do the math to estimate when to turn off the miner because the rock is empty...

Example: Your scan shows the rock has 8000 units of Veldespar in it... You know your strip miner grabs 16000 unites per cycle... So, when your halfway through your cycle, manually cycle your timer to save time and improve your yield/hour.

This is what separates an attentive miner from an inattentive one, and is one of the primary reasons for fitting a survey scanner...



There is no such thing as an AFKish Miner.
It's a Myth invented by James, and your all idiots for believing even a Mack can mine AFK.
AFK is only Ice.

Additionally, this request actually really helps out the newer miners. Barges (rather than Exhumers) only have a single mid slot, and it pretty much needs to be dedicated to tank, otherwise gankers pop you with silly amounts of ease, and since it's such a game, you are going to get gank attempted.

Personally, I'd rather see the Barge bonuses changed to cycle time for the Retriever/Procurer, as it makes the Procurer worth it a lot more if it has a fast cycle time rather than just a huge yield on a single laser, and the skills decreasing yield time would also be nice.
Additionally any change to cycle time actually forces every single miner to be more attentative. Which is what most of you whine that miners aren't, yet the second any miner asks for the system to be made like that, you all whine that it benefits the mythical AFK miner.


I afk'ish mine... Not on this character... but my alt is very much into industry, and when I'm waiting on invention jobs I typically take a mackinaw to the belts... I scan, estimate how much time it will take to empty the rock... activate laser... and move on to my main to PvP. If I'm being really lazy, I go to the ice belt... but you can easily afk'ish mine in a belt...

It is easy to use the scanner and estimate how many cycles it takes...
I mine ~15000 Veldaspar in a cycle... If a roid has 22000 veld, I know it takes 1.5 cycles to empty it...
I mine 1100 Kernite in a cycle... If a roid has 4100 kernite in it, I know it takes 3.75 cycles to empty...

The cycle progression is also blatantly displayed on the screen, so I can easily estimate when I'm at 1/2 a cycle, or 3/4 a cycle.. If I'm being lazy, or my attention is elsewhere... I mine less efficiently, because I don't stop my cycle when I should...

This results in better revenues for the active miners, and less revenues for the inattentive, lazy, and/or DUMB miners... which is a perfect game mechanic!!! Your suggestion simply makes it easier, so the lazy can be as competent as the attentive... and that's just not wanted!!!
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#25 - 2013-02-01 22:01:55 UTC
Jerrick Chase wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:


if u dnt like using spread sheets u can just:

1.- Figure out how much ore u will take in one cycle by dividing ur yield in m3 by the volume of the desired ore on the show info panel (this can also easily be done by mining a big asteroid once and remembering it, or writing it down if u dnt have a great memory).

2.a- If the amount of ore in the asteroid is less than cycle amount, do not mine. unlock asteroid, lock next asteroid, use scan, whatever.

2.b- If there is equal to or more than double that amount left in the asteroid then start/continue mining that asteroid and re-scan in 3 minutes.

2.c- If the amount in the asteroid is equal to or more than a signle cycle amount but less than double, unlock asteroid mid cycle.

3- U now have approx three minutes to run a scan and select and lock asteroids with ore quantities above a single cycle amount. This way, when the current cycle stops, u can just press f1,f2,f3 on the newly locked asteroids.

4- Rinse and repeat from 2a.b.c. using the scanner to find desirable asteroids.



^^ Non-lazy ways of mining I guess.

Your ideas of mining is more inefficient than plugging in a number into a cell and getting the amount of cycles until the depletion of an asteroid. My "super complex" sheet is more efficient than your manual ways which only attentive non-lazy miners are capable of achieving, apparently. By figuring out how many cycles I can get from one rock allows me to move onto the next one faster, and faster means paying more attention to what I'm doing.

There is an even simpler way of mining. Let the miner cycle all the way until its done even if there is only a single ore left in the rock. Which brings us full circle back to the original post.

To use an example posted a bit earlier, if there is only 8000 veldspar in the asteroid and your miner can pick up 16000 in an entire cycle, what is it mining for the last 50% of that cycle? Nothing. So I ask, how much damage can be done, hypothetically, to have the miner stop mining when there is technically nothing left in the asteroid?


i didnt say it was non-lazy. its a lazy way to mine without thinking or using spread sheets, thats why i thought it would be perfect for u.

that said, u cannot move onto the next rock faster or better than mining until there is less than one cycle left (its essentially what u do already, but without spread sheets). mining with fractioned cycles uses more cap (kinda) but will be just as efficient without leaving as much leftover ore in a belt. u'll basically get more ore per belt using fractioned cycles than calculating how many whole cycles u can get for each roid and then moving onto the next one.

it requires a bit more work, but separating and rewarding those who work more from those who work less is a good thing. and that is why the OP's idea would be damaging, because the current system allows those attentive miners to get an edge over the more wasteful miners. e.g. afk miners, those who dnt 'fraction mine' (for lack of a better tag), and those who alt tab out and wait to be told that the rock is empty.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Dave Stark
#26 - 2013-02-02 02:10:00 UTC
all we need is the survey scanner to display the m3 of ore instead of the number of units. other than that nothing really needs to be changed.
androch
LitlCorp
#27 - 2013-02-03 13:59:11 UTC
i love how when you critisize these topics the only response the ops have is "youre stupid this is not afk activity" followed by a wall of text and half a page of quotes that nobody will read
Christopher Caldaris
Caldaris Enterprises LLC
#28 - 2013-02-04 06:49:57 UTC
This is a great idea and should be considered for immediate introduction.

There is no point for a miner to continue mining if there is nothing left in the asteroid.

It would be the equivalent of your gun continuing to shoot even if the enemy ship is dead. Do you have to manually tell your guns to stop shoooting when your enemy is dead? No, because the game realizes that it no longer has anything to shoot at.

The solution would be to turn the physical content of the asteroid i.e. 22000 veldspar, into an effective hitpoint pool the same as ships. As the physical content of the asteroid is mined out the asteroids HP will decrease until it is depleted.

This would allow a simple and easy way to determine how much ore is remaining in the asteroid.

If you are shooting an enemy you don't need to use a scanner to see their hitpoints...
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#29 - 2013-02-04 09:49:12 UTC
Christopher Caldaris wrote:
It would be the equivalent of your gun continuing to shoot even if the enemy ship is dead. Do you have to manually tell your guns to stop shoooting when your enemy is dead? No, because the game realizes that it no longer has anything to shoot at.

Oh, like missiles then?

Christopher Caldaris wrote:
The solution would be to turn the physical content of the asteroid i.e. 22000 veldspar, into an effective hitpoint pool the same as ships. As the physical content of the asteroid is mined out the asteroids HP will decrease until it is depleted.

This would allow a simple and easy way to determine how much ore is remaining in the asteroid.

If you are shooting an enemy you don't need to use a scanner to see their hitpoints...

So the solution is what we already have now...
I think you need to go back to this and think about it a bit more.

The survey scanner idea sort of works, but considering all it would do is take the amount of ore left and multiply it by the volume a single unit of ore takes up, which is easy to do with the in game calculator, why bother? If your too lazy or you have too many accounts going to pay full attention to what your doing, then that's up to you. Losing a little bit of efficiency for overall gain simply gits with EvEs diminishing returns ethos.

Friends
Iminent Penance
Your Mom's Boyfriends
#30 - 2013-02-04 10:49:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Iminent Penance
you posted... in a public forum where 99.9% of these people grief/dont need to mine to build or get income.... a logical benefit to what everyone hates that would in no way impact gameplay negatively.

Are you dense to assume this would have a positive reaction?

Logic doesn't work in eve, especially when it benefits pve silly person.

Unless it in some form or fashion supports the grief ragehards that hateflood posts like this... then you might have had hope.
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