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Why are capsuleers allowed to claim sovereignty in Null space - or at all?

Author
Wu Jiaqiu
#1 - 2013-02-01 17:15:34 UTC
It seems silly to me that the four great nations would allow their greatest weapons to go loose and start their own empires that would rival theirs in ships and resources. I mean, are there provisions taken to counter the fact that capsuleers can team up at any given time and launch an invasion with the strength of an empire itself? Is there an off-switch in our capsules or something that only they can flip?
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-02-01 17:34:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Eija-Riitta Veitonen
Wu Jiaqiu wrote:
It seems silly to me that the four great nations would allow their greatest weapons to go loose and start their own empires that would rival theirs in ships and resources. I mean, are there provisions taken to counter the fact that capsuleers can team up at any given time and launch an invasion with the strength of an empire itself? Is there an off-switch in our capsules or something that only they can flip?

Well, Empires can control only so much territory. At some point it reaches the limit of how much territory you can control and protect, it's called "spreading thin". Even empire's navy has limited projection capability and numbers.

Pretty much visible in the capsuleer alliances as well, you can't have a single alliance controlling whole of the 0.0, because sooner or later someone else will move in and take the territory from them.
Thgil Goldcore
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2013-02-02 00:26:21 UTC
pretty much what the last poster said. To add though... what are they going to do about it if they didn't want capsuleers to take space? Start ANOTHER war. pretty much every empire has its hands busy, a crusade out to unpopulated parts of space would not be worth it.
Wu Jiaqiu
#4 - 2013-02-02 03:03:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Wu Jiaqiu
No provisions against an invasion of a capsuleer funded supercapital fleet? I can understand them not attacking. But I can't understand why they wouldn't take precaution against a capsuleer fleet 20,000 strong, and with an infinite supply of clones. Couple this with the resources left in Null-space, and you've got a catastrophic disaster looming. I mean take note of the Sansha Incursions abducting millions of people and wreaking havoc. This kind of guerilla assault came from null space. It would simply make sense to raid and disrupt capsuleer "claimed" space to avoid this.

EDIT: Also, look at what The Broker was able to do. What is to stop capsuleers from inflicting that same kind of damage to another mega corporation or something greater? I think that in our wirings somewhere, theres a kill-switch. Something that would shut us all off if we were to provoke the nations. The Broker somehow must've gotten around it because every other capsuleer can be traced, tracked, and identified.
Shou Kaukonen
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-02-02 05:22:32 UTC
I think, OP, that I can satisfactorily rebut your points. Allow me to explain:

You suggest that it would be desirable to frequently raid null-space to keep enemies off-balance. I'm guessing you are aware that, as far as pirate factions are concerned, this is already happening - missioning for folks like the Syndicate, Angels or Guristas will occasionally net you missions to go kill enemies from empire space - I've personally seen DED, would be interested to hear from someone who knows whether you encounter faction navies while missioning for pirate factions. Even if faction navies never make it out there, CONCORD is composed of people and resources from all of the main empires. In a very real sense, CONCORD embodies the empires' effort to keep the pirates off balance.

Specifically referring to capsuleers, though, I have 2 points for your consideration.

1 is actually economic - yes, capsuleer alliances do a lot of resource-gathering 'on site' in their 0.0 domains, but if you've ever spent time in null (or hell, even talked to someone who has) you've probably learned that there is a lot of money to be made supplying nullsec trade hubs. Not only is this true in terms of gameplay, but there are examples in canon of null entities needing to gather resources and people from empire space to fuel their operations - quite a few, actually. There's ample evidence in the storyline that the crazy-powerful economic influence of capsuleers is worth putting up with their sociopathic shenanigans - and at least valuable enough that a given empire would be in no hurry to declare all of null sec their enemies.

The other point is one of pragmatism, that other posters have already touched on. Basically, your annoyance at the situation seems to stem from a perception that the empires are more powerful than canon really indicates them to be. Their resources are vast, but they are not limitless. More importantly, all the empires are roughly comparable in power - if the Amarr, for example, took their eyes off the Minmatar for a bit they could ravage dozens of worlds before being stopped, and the same holds true for any other combination of two empires.

What this means, functionally, is that every empire has at least one prominent enemy who a) is about as strong as they are, and could annihilate them utterly if left unchecked, and b) really, really wants to do just that. Your proposed method of dealing with capsuleer alliances involves them, in this situation, voluntarily making more enemies - many of which could prove neutral or even beneficial to the empires if left alone.

So, tl;dr:

1) the empires ARE doing something about hostile null presences, but
2) aren't willing to attack ones that aren't actively threatening them and could even prove beneficial, and
3) have enough people who want to kill them without needlessly making more enemies.

Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt at all that the empires have all planned, spied and maneuvered to try and be ready for another Sansha coming out of the black and wrecking their day. But that's where things stand right now.

Also, sorry if I rambled. I get wordy sometimes.
Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#6 - 2013-02-02 08:00:02 UTC
Wu Jiaqiu wrote:
It seems silly to me that the four great nations would allow their greatest weapons to go loose and start their own empires that would rival theirs in ships and resources. I mean, are there provisions taken to counter the fact that capsuleers can team up at any given time and launch an invasion with the strength of an empire itself? Is there an off-switch in our capsules or something that only they can flip?


Null Sec is like the wild wild west. It's beyond the capabilities of the empires to control the whole cluster. There are a lot of null sec regions, remember.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.

Beaver Retriever
Reality Sequence
#7 - 2013-02-02 17:26:53 UTC
Wu Jiaqiu wrote:
No provisions against an invasion of a capsuleer funded supercapital fleet? I can understand them not attacking. But I can't understand why they wouldn't take precaution against a capsuleer fleet 20,000 strong, and with an infinite supply of clones. Couple this with the resources left in Null-space, and you've got a catastrophic disaster looming. I mean take note of the Sansha Incursions abducting millions of people and wreaking havoc. This kind of guerilla assault came from null space. It would simply make sense to raid and disrupt capsuleer "claimed" space to avoid this.

EDIT: Also, look at what The Broker was able to do. What is to stop capsuleers from inflicting that same kind of damage to another mega corporation or something greater? I think that in our wirings somewhere, theres a kill-switch. Something that would shut us all off if we were to provoke the nations. The Broker somehow must've gotten around it because every other capsuleer can be traced, tracked, and identified.

Not sure what your point is. Capsuleer forces might have overwhelming power in wormhole space, null- and low-security space, but all their power is blunted in high-security space by empire cynojammers and CONCORD.

We can't declare war against the empire's factions, and we can't cyno in capitals or supercapitals, nor construct them in empire space. Even if somehow provisions were added for us to even attack the empires, it would be hopeless for this fact alone. I have no idea what the up-to-date canon says about the empires' capital and subcapital fleets, but we wouldn't exactly be doing much of strategic value by suiciding Catalysts into Empire forces.

Why would there be a kill switch when they have CONCORD? CONCORD is basically godmoding the entire game to the benefit of the empires.
Shamus O'Reilly
Candy Cabal
#8 - 2013-02-02 17:39:15 UTC
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Wu Jiaqiu wrote:
It seems silly to me that the four great nations would allow their greatest weapons to go loose and start their own empires that would rival theirs in ships and resources. I mean, are there provisions taken to counter the fact that capsuleers can team up at any given time and launch an invasion with the strength of an empire itself? Is there an off-switch in our capsules or something that only they can flip?


Null Sec is like the wild wild west. It's beyond the capabilities of the empires to control the whole cluster. There are a lot of null sec regions, remember.

Makes me wonder if a nullsec rebalance/hisec rebalance would take the wild out of the west and turn it into an actual rival empire space built on player rules instead.

It'd fit into the idea that the west stays wild only for so long such as history proves in real life. Society develops the area until it cannot be developed anymore. it builds its own industry and market as time progresses

"I swear there are more people complaining over "nullsecers complaining" then actual nullsec people complaining."

Esna Pitoojee
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#9 - 2013-02-03 01:56:37 UTC
Something that may need to be pointed out is that capsuleers (i.e., players) started going and building empires in nullsec even before CONCORD legally recognized alliances, much less gave them the ability to claim sovereignty, build stations, or construct supercapitals.

I suspect CONCORD realized that one way or another, capsuleers simply -were- going to begin assembling into groups that would rapidly rival the Big 4. Facing this fact, they decided that the demon you know is better than the demon you don't, and began systematically feeding capsuleers increasing amounts of control to allow them to build empires that would naturally come to rival each other - but still left key points of control, such as stargates, outside of capsuleer control.

It is important to remember that, even aside from gameplay-limited factors such as CONCORD's insta-response and the inability to cyno-jump or wormhole out of highsec while they are coming for you, several key components of technology and strategic resources remain fundamentally outside of capsuleer control. Stargates, which stations we can construct, even the ability to essentially disable our ability to utilize our own markets under certain conditions (i.e., negative wallet value behavior) remain tightly under CONCORD control - and they're unlikely to give it up any time soon.a
Boston Bradley
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-02-04 06:09:50 UTC
First off, the four major factions would love nothing more then to control null space but they do not currently have the resources, man power, or time to launch a full scale operation to secure space without weakening themselves on another front. Concord is also prohibited from operating in null space, even though they have attempted to alter the course of history via the THANATOS project.

Too much time, too much resources is all it comes down to.

Pioneers build the paths that the government later paves.
Reuben Johnson
Gal-Min Industries
#11 - 2013-02-04 11:33:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Reuben Johnson
It's highly unlikely I will get any support of this, but Sov space should be where FW is, claiming the area for their respective homeland. Many colonies in history have been taken, established, and largely defended by civilian militas.

In addition, i dont think non FW crops should be allowed to hold Sov space. Instead have them fight to control an area within a system. Gain control of the NPC station so you have control over the station, planet moon and asteroid belts directly associated with that station. anyone found mining in that belt, or PI'ing that planet or such and youre corp gets to pew pew without Concord interference. I also think that in order to even be able to try and gain control, the corp must have high standings with the station onwers NPC Corp...if at anytime your e corps standings drop below a certain point, that station becomes available to be taken over by another corp.
This would intergrate both missions runnign for high standings, and high levele of PvP to hold you're station from anyother corp with simsialr or higher standing wishing to take over youre station, plus to defedn against solo ninja miners in youre belt.
Ingkala
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2013-02-27 19:19:30 UTC
Why would capsuleers even want to attack the empire factions? Besides, many capsuleers are loyal to the factions (look at fw corps for example).
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-02-28 00:55:53 UTC
Ingkala wrote:
Why would capsuleers even want to attack the empire factions? Besides, many capsuleers are loyal to the factions (look at fw corps for example).

If a sovereignity switch/occupation mechanic to be ever introduced/extended to the empire spaces so capsuleers could claim it, they would most certainly do so. This would also breathe a bit of life into the lowsec regions other than FW ones.
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
#14 - 2013-03-01 20:20:50 UTC
Wu Jiaqiu wrote:
It seems silly to me that the four great nations would allow their greatest weapons to go loose and start their own empires that would rival theirs in ships and resources. I mean, are there provisions taken to counter the fact that capsuleers can team up at any given time and launch an invasion with the strength of an empire itself? Is there an off-switch in our capsules or something that only they can flip?


Why would the Great Powers of the RL Colonial age allow the emergence of independent state?

Similar dynamics are at work, Null-Sec is like the New World, the Factions probably thought they could bring them to heal in the future as necessary. The reality is the null sec factions grew to strong for that to happen.
Saul Elsyn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-03-01 20:32:38 UTC
That and Concord is probably glad that we're keeping the space out of pirate faction hands as it were.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#16 - 2013-03-07 11:41:01 UTC
"Doing something" about null sec .. hmm .. if I would look at it from the empire perspective I would say the pod pilots are out there in null fighting the war already for the empires. Without pod pilots out there patrolling their space and inflicting heavy losses on the pirate factions who knows how strong would these grow - perhaps even strong enough to threaten the empire factions themselves.

Now assuming for a second that the empire factions would indeed find a reason to "do something" about null sec. I would say this would be rather costly undertaking. What do you think, how many NPC ships of the similar type you encounter in level 4 missions would it take to conquest, lets say, LXQ. Considering that if you would be able to push it into the last RF timer you would be facing roughly 3000 pod pilots out of which, I would say, arpprox 200 might be of Titan class vessels and about 500 might be supercarriers. As that is roughly the ballpark figure which you will be going up against if you go for the nuts of a major null sec coalition in a system they really care about.

Open up a starmap and look for the "NPC ships destroyed in the past 24h" to get an idea how heavy losses the pod pilots are capable of inflicting to the ships piloted by the mortals. And these losses are inflicted only by a little handful of pod pilots, not by a fleet of hundred backed up by a logistic ships or triage carriers.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#17 - 2013-03-13 23:38:58 UTC
Ingkala wrote:
Why would capsuleers even want to attack the empire factions? Besides, many capsuleers are loyal to the factions (look at fw corps for example).


A capsuleer loyal to the Gallente would love to attack the Caldari and vice versa.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#18 - 2013-03-19 20:02:37 UTC
Fun thought, but if the Capsuleers united against the Empires and Concorde, who would win? Could anyone win?

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Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#19 - 2013-03-19 22:10:10 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
Fun thought, but if the Capsuleers united against the Empires and Concorde, who would win? Could anyone win?


I imagine it would be pretty short and simple conflict for the majority. CONCORD would just pull the plugs on all the clones and nuke the clone banks in High/Low security. Then there is the fact capsuleers are generally an untrustworthy bunch and when things went sour they would probably turn on each other.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Wu Jiaqiu
#20 - 2013-03-20 00:15:38 UTC
Clones can be in POS's as well.
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