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Hot drops and gate camps = lame pvp.
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Subdolus Venator
State War Academy
Caldari State
#121 - 2013-02-01 13:25:17 UTC
Darius Brinn wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Far too many titans. Everywhere you go you are in range of some gang just chilling on a titan waiting. Back in the day if a cyno went up, it meant mostly capitals would come in. Which you could in a way get away from due to long lock times. Now if a cyno goes up, you ARE getting bridge on.

With what ships? Anything and everything.


I never gave excessive supercap proliferation a thought until I saw Goons living in Syndicate Titan-bridging fleets to catch a few frigates. Last Sunday they bridged a hell of a lot of people into us, and managed to kill a single Dramiel.

They lost a 700 mil. Cynabal in the process (http://www.iberians.org/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=31782), though. Plus the fuel, etc.

And curiously enough, they also put 3 dreads, Aeon, Wyvern and Nyx next to a High Sec gate in order to destroy...anchored bubbles.

http://i.imgur.com/VO7fjVs.jpg

So perhaps yes. Cyno goes up, you can be sure supercap comes out. Coallitions are using 3 supercaps and 3 Dreads to destroy modules worth 5 million ISK, after all.

Eh. A few years back, I had a hot-drop put a bunch of 'Canes into a system to hunt down 'lil ol' me. Flying a n00bship. Come to think of it, that was the only time I've been hotdropped, but it was completely ineffectual - I saw the cyno go up, and was already on my way out when the calvary arrived to save the system from my fearsome taunting.
Big smile
Was much fun.

If they wanna waste all that fuel, let 'em. Makes my giggles that much the better.
Twisted

EVE is EVE - Feaces will eventuate.
decaneos
Casalt Corp
CAStabouts
#122 - 2013-02-01 13:43:51 UTC
One thing i agree on and have mentioned in the past is that Cynos should be limited to Mass, i fail to see why a cruiser should be able to create a cyno that enables the movement of the same amount of ships as a carriers cyno would. a solution to this would be to create cyno generators that fit for the right ship level and allows only the next size of ship to use that cyno.

A example would be a cruiser would only be able to cyno ships equal to or smaller than a battleship, with a mass limit on how many could be shifted thus allowing say 5 battleships through or maybe many many cruisers, if you want to hot drop carriers and dreads then you cyno with a battleship and so on. this would lead to waves of rather than just one mass extinction event.

Another thought might be that you could put in a mechanic that if a cyno is deployed that another cannot be placed in that area of say 30km till the local space has restored itself after a certain time frame. meaning the next cyno ship would have to move away from that area to get more reinforcements in.

Anyone see any flaws?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#123 - 2013-02-01 14:49:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Jealousy Asques wrote:
Mag's wrote:

Just want to ask you one thing. You do know what PvP stands for, don't you?


I do, I play nothing but pvp games. Do you know what pvp is? Do you know what good pvp is? I think not. I can't blame anyone for using mechanics that are in the game. Hot dropping is pvp... It's just not good pvp as it currently stands, except in very few scenarios where hot droppers do a very bad job of scouting their targets. Like I say theres always a group of people that would be very happy if they had something like an invulnerable deathstar to let them pulverize their victims with impunity, as long as it isn't done to them. With hot droppers that are always on the offensive, it almost never is going to happen to them. And the exploiters of bad mechanics ALWAYS cry foul when someone calls it what it is.

In every game theres always something, gear or ships, that gives a healthy advantage to those using them. Thats fine, those that have them probably earned them... the question is where you draw the line on how powerful those items/ships are and if they can be countered.

By definition, to me, any mechanic that allows people, no matter how many, to gank any target, no matter how small, and get away with zero chance of being caught, is a bad mechanic. Sitting with a covert ops fleet of your own for days/weeks on end waiting for a chance to ambush them is not in my opinion a chance to catch them. Risk free pvp is not pvp at all. Hot droppers at most risk one scout, and in nrds space they don't even risk that. Hot droppers are chickenshits, end of story. This is not "war" where anything goes, its a game with intended and unintended mechanics. Otherwise, just let everyone hack their clients and the server as best they can and have at it. All is fair. I'm not saying people are hacking but bad mechanics can produce similar effects.

I see the attraction in it, don't get me wrong, I'd have fun with checkenshit tactics for a while. It's not game breaking. EVE has lots of other good features and possibilities that more than make up for it or people wouldnt be here, but there is always room for improvement in any game. Hot dropping happens to be the first thing I would change. Not remove...

I realize that hot drops make it possible to catch fleets that dont want to be caught, so in some ways it is a neccessary mechanic. That is an issue though that could be handled in other ways that do not introduce as much completely one sided pvp.

I also agree with another poster... gate scouting is a lame requirement made necessary because of the gate system. I'd venture to guess though that it will never be removed because it encourages a ton of people to run multiple accounts, which is potential $ for CCP. IMO though there should be a way to probe the immediate vicinity on the other side of the gate without going through, and without a 2nd noob alt account.
I didn't ask for your emotional opinion, I asked if you knew what PvP stands for. Whether or not you think any version of it has E-Honour attached, is irrelevant in regards to what PvP stands for.

Also PvP isn't solely limited to combat, just saying. Blink

But I already said I could see the argument for changes to the cyno mechanic. I do have a simple solution, that may work.

Idea:

We should have 3 cyno modules.

    1. Limited Cyno: It can be fitted to any ship with fittings, but has the following restrictions.
  • Jump delay of 1 minute after lighting.
  • Ship immobile for 10 minutes during use.
  • Any and all self destruct calls cancelled and none allowed to start once fired.
  • Super Capital ships, are restricted from using this cyno.
  • Plus all other restrictions already in place.

    • 2. Regular Cyno: Can only be fitted to the Force Recon ship, with the following restrictions.
  • Built in 1 minute delay, that is reduced by either 20% per recon level, or 10 seconds. This will end in either 10 seconds or no delay at level 5.
  • Super capitals ships can use this cyno.
  • All other restrictions as now.

    • 3. Covert cyno.
  • Remain the same as now.

This will mean a far more tactical and situational use of cynos. Plus give those being dropped, the chance to pre-judge what may be coming their way.

Edit: I see often, the calls for mass to be used to restrict cyno use. The only problem is, that it's so easy to over come. Jump, light repeat. large groups either light more initially, or as they jump in.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Karrl Tian
Doomheim
#124 - 2013-02-01 15:38:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Karrl Tian
Subdolus Venator wrote:
Darius Brinn wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Far too many titans. Everywhere you go you are in range of some gang just chilling on a titan waiting. Back in the day if a cyno went up, it meant mostly capitals would come in. Which you could in a way get away from due to long lock times. Now if a cyno goes up, you ARE getting bridge on.

With what ships? Anything and everything.


I never gave excessive supercap proliferation a thought until I saw Goons living in Syndicate Titan-bridging fleets to catch a few frigates. Last Sunday they bridged a hell of a lot of people into us, and managed to kill a single Dramiel.

They lost a 700 mil. Cynabal in the process (http://www.iberians.org/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=31782), though. Plus the fuel, etc.

And curiously enough, they also put 3 dreads, Aeon, Wyvern and Nyx next to a High Sec gate in order to destroy...anchored bubbles.

http://i.imgur.com/VO7fjVs.jpg

So perhaps yes. Cyno goes up, you can be sure supercap comes out. Coallitions are using 3 supercaps and 3 Dreads to destroy modules worth 5 million ISK, after all.

Eh. A few years back, I had a hot-drop put a bunch of 'Canes into a system to hunt down 'lil ol' me. Flying a n00bship. Come to think of it, that was the only time I've been hotdropped, but it was completely ineffectual - I saw the cyno go up, and was already on my way out when the calvary arrived to save the system from my fearsome taunting.
Big smile
Was much fun.

If they wanna waste all that fuel, let 'em. Makes my giggles that much the better.
Twisted


Rich people. Who are bored. 'Nuff said.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#125 - 2013-02-01 15:42:33 UTC
decaneos wrote:
One thing i agree on and have mentioned in the past is that Cynos should be limited to Mass, i fail to see why a cruiser should be able to create a cyno that enables the movement of the same amount of ships as a carriers cyno would. a solution to this would be to create cyno generators that fit for the right ship level and allows only the next size of ship to use that cyno.

A example would be a cruiser would only be able to cyno ships equal to or smaller than a battleship, with a mass limit on how many could be shifted thus allowing say 5 battleships through or maybe many many cruisers, if you want to hot drop carriers and dreads then you cyno with a battleship and so on. this would lead to waves of rather than just one mass extinction event.

Another thought might be that you could put in a mechanic that if a cyno is deployed that another cannot be placed in that area of say 30km till the local space has restored itself after a certain time frame. meaning the next cyno ship would have to move away from that area to get more reinforcements in.

Anyone see any flaws?

Interesting ideas. Don't see as those are neccessary changes, but they might make for some fascinating changes in fleet action.

I 'second' these concepts.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Subdolus Venator
State War Academy
Caldari State
#126 - 2013-02-01 15:47:39 UTC
Karrl Tian wrote:


Rich people. Who are bored. 'Nuff said.

Poor person. Who makes his fun any way he can, including taunting rich people and encouraging them waste cash.
Blink

EVE is EVE - Feaces will eventuate.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#127 - 2013-02-01 16:52:45 UTC
Akiyo Mayaki wrote:
Many people seem to be happy with how it is, so I guess it ain't that bad.

Pirate



Surely the forums are indication of this happiness.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#128 - 2013-02-01 17:01:54 UTC
Titan bridge fuel is practically free guys. It literally costs nothing.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#129 - 2013-02-01 17:07:58 UTC
Chenlab Delta wrote:
Camping is great, so many people not using scouts thinking they can mosey on around.

Hot drops are great whether you taking part or on the receiving end.

No need to change either...



Yeah. I mean who wants to pay for another sub, and dual box just to play a game. Friends you say? okay if they are skilled and have a different interest than you and are online at the same time sure, but where are you gonna find that?
Subdolus Venator
State War Academy
Caldari State
#130 - 2013-02-01 17:11:46 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Titan bridge fuel is practically free guys. It literally costs nothing.

And the n00bship that I was flying that day was better than free - It came with a whole salable unit of tritanium! Plus I got away clean, despite the drop.

I win. Lol

EVE is EVE - Feaces will eventuate.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#131 - 2013-02-01 17:14:37 UTC
Revman Zim wrote:
So... in summation.

The OP was in NULLSEC, which is designated as a PvP area in EVE online. Meaning, there is no repercussions for locking, scramming, shooting, killing or podding. There is no CONCORD for protection, no loss of security status for any actions.

This OP was flying a ship that would normally be described as PvE fit, and performing PvE actions. Meaning, that she was engaging targets generated by the game, with limited AI, predictable actions and well defined offensive and defensive capabilities.

The OP was engaged in PvP by other players using tools that are provided by the game for use in NULLSEC/LOWSEC space only. For the purposes of PvP. The OP was unable to counter this PvP encounter.

So, the OP blames the mechanics of the game instead of looking at her actions that precipitated the event.

No you see a large portion of PVE content is is your PVP arena. Most players want to get to that. You can blame them for bringing PVE fits to null sec. the game is designed for it.
Gluthor
Aegis Reforged
Already Replaced.
#132 - 2013-02-01 17:22:37 UTC
I'll Agree with the OP, the game as a whole has many many flaws when it comes to pvp mechanics

Akiyo Mayaki wrote:
Many people seem to be happy with how it is, so I guess it ain't that bad.

Pirate


The number of subscribers is proof that EVE is very flawed, if the PVP system was great, there would be several millions of players after almost 10 years.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#133 - 2013-02-01 17:23:11 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Akiyo Mayaki wrote:
Many people seem to be happy with how it is, so I guess it ain't that bad.

Pirate



Surely the forums are indication of this happiness.

The forums are a tiny, albeit noisy, minority.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#134 - 2013-02-01 17:24:01 UTC
Gluthor wrote:
I'll Agree with the OP, the game as a whole has many many flaws when it comes to pvp mechanics

Akiyo Mayaki wrote:
Many people seem to be happy with how it is, so I guess it ain't that bad.

Pirate


The number of subscribers is proof that EVE is very flawed, if the PVP system was great, there would be several millions of players after almost 10 years.

Really? Based upon what provable metric?
Or are you guessing?

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#135 - 2013-02-01 17:36:27 UTC
silens vesica wrote:
Gluthor wrote:
I'll Agree with the OP, the game as a whole has many many flaws when it comes to pvp mechanics

Akiyo Mayaki wrote:
Many people seem to be happy with how it is, so I guess it ain't that bad.

Pirate


The number of subscribers is proof that EVE is very flawed, if the PVP system was great, there would be several millions of players after almost 10 years.

Really? Based upon what provable metric?
Or are you guessing?

based upon people like personal friends enjoying a game. Ask some players how many friends just wont play the game because it is boring and tedious. I mean gate/station camps exist, but wo when it is the whole game? How sad.
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2013-02-02 00:33:04 UTC
Pirate I camp gates solo a lot, and I'm still on my first Talos.

Maybe gatecamps wouldn't be so invincible if people stopped flying through unscouted in untanked industrials all the time, without support. I can't tell you how many sigils, cruisers, and barges I have instapopped with my Talos. Even if they don't instapop, they still usually don't have support and are alone.

Easy. Unsuspecting victim in a blind panic + Trigger happy ol' me with a lot of big guns = Yellow wreck, tears, and a beautiful new killmail. Then again, it's much funner and easier to do it with friends. Blob or be blobbed, and there is always a bigger blob.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#137 - 2013-02-02 00:37:52 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
silens vesica wrote:
Gluthor wrote:
I'll Agree with the OP, the game as a whole has many many flaws when it comes to pvp mechanics

Akiyo Mayaki wrote:
Many people seem to be happy with how it is, so I guess it ain't that bad.

Pirate


The number of subscribers is proof that EVE is very flawed, if the PVP system was great, there would be several millions of players after almost 10 years.

Really? Based upon what provable metric?
Or are you guessing?

based upon people like personal friends enjoying a game. Ask some players how many friends just wont play the game because it is boring and tedious. I mean gate/station camps exist, but wo when it is the whole game? How sad.

Sounds like a bad case of anecdote with a side-helping of confirmation bias there.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Eisen Kern
Doomheim
#138 - 2013-02-02 08:35:04 UTC
silens vesica wrote:
Sounds like a bad case of anecdote with a side-helping of confirmation bias there.

You have some hard data that refutes it? It mirrors what I've seen. There's a lot to like in Eve - some of the boring mechanics are a huge turnoff.
Kalle Demos
Ironic Corp Name
#139 - 2013-02-02 08:41:49 UTC
Theres far too many alliances that are obsessed with their killboard stats, while I dont think gatecamps or hot dropping is an issue, if your alliance obsesses over a KB and you have a collection of members F5'ing eve-kill after that 'kill' you might want to consider leaving, its not healthy at all being that obsessed with internet stats.
Annihilious
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#140 - 2013-02-03 13:08:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Annihilious
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
It's like I'm playing a game with a bunch of guys that grew up playing dollies...

Hey, don't knock the dollies man. The girls I play with sprouted bewbies at an early age...