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A Confusing Difference in Damage, please help... A tale of two Machariels
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Xaexia Attor
The Disposable Assassins
#21 - 2013-02-01 14:22:58 UTC
Sorry for the couple day delay in replying guys. RL and all that jazz.

We are comparing each other openly and honestly. Using same build damage wise:

Tech II guns, RF Gyros, Same Ammo for this comparison we have both been loading rf emp (No Damage Rigs in use)

He has +3 slot 9 and 10 gunnery hardwires, I have the +5s

My gunnery skills are ahead of him by a decent amount.

The fitting manager is telling us under turret dps that he is doing 50 more dps than I. While this is minute and negligible, it drives me crazy that all in all I have far more invested into turret skills then he, and he is somehow doing more.

If we added drones I would be out dpsing him hands down.

I doubt this effects it but his perception is two more than I. Our Willpower is the same.

He has zero reason to lie to me about this.

And yes I am ugly.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-02-01 14:25:39 UTC
Xaexia Attor wrote:
My gunnery skills are ahead of him by a decent amount.


Okay, but do you have Rapid Firing and Surgical Strike trained at a higher level? Do you have large arty/AC spec at least at IV?

Xaexia Attor wrote:
I doubt this effects it but his perception is two more than I. Our Willpower is the same.


Learning attributes do not affect anything other than skill training.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#23 - 2013-02-01 14:29:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Random and somewhat stupid game mechanic...me and my alt using same everithing with stoped ships with optimal of sansha station with sig rad of moon and both have low hits or one have exelent another horrible...stupid is stupid.

ie game engine just decide that your ship,fit,skills doesnt matter some times...just for the fun of it

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Whitehound
#24 - 2013-02-01 14:42:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Attention If you only post the information of which you know is not helping you, then how do you expect us to find your problem?

Please do make screenshots of your fitting as seen on the fitting screen and in the fittings browser.

... I know that the fitting manager does have some problems with calculating drone DPS properly, because it cannot see which drones you will actually be using and also does not know which the best mix for a given bandwidth is. This can lead to different numbers, too.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Riedle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2013-02-01 14:47:01 UTC
post a link to you and your mates eveboard
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#26 - 2013-02-01 15:20:15 UTC
Riedle wrote:
post a link to you and your mates eveboard

Yep, you are likely missing something small but critical in your skills where he is gaining the advantage (the ship fits themselves are easy to compare so I'm assuming no mistake there although perhaps we should look at those too including rigs).

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#27 - 2013-02-01 15:21:50 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Random and somewhat stupid game mechanic...me and my alt using same everithing with stoped ships with optimal of sansha station with sig rad of moon and both have low hits or one have exelent another horrible...stupid is stupid.

ie game engine just decide that your ship,fit,skills doesnt matter some times...just for the fun of it

At what point did any part of your post actually make logical sense to you?

Math is math. If there is a difference there is a reason for it.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#28 - 2013-02-01 17:24:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Ranger 1 wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Random and somewhat stupid game mechanic...me and my alt using same everithing with stoped ships with optimal of sansha station with sig rad of moon and both have low hits or one have exelent another horrible...stupid is stupid.

ie game engine just decide that your ship,fit,skills doesnt matter some times...just for the fun of it

At what point did any part of your post actually make logical sense to you?

Math is math. If there is a difference there is a reason for it.


I am sure there is reason for it just not in math..look one don't even have to compare pilots performance take Mina here click bio and check hardest hit on static tower 24000-25000 alpha monster...then,pay attention what i wrote next...nothing changes N A D A,zip,zero,0..next mina hit is 8000alpha irrelevant difference of oh,16000alpha is just gone.

it is like on first strike i got officer gyros installed and 15sec later i got none gyros instaled,not just that its like im unskilled to fly ship,and dont forget that me and target are static with perfect conditions all movement mechanic don't play any role.

Nao add another player on the mix using same ship and fit and you got circus of lol and i cant believe this crap,it is so much lol...mina score 16000,alt almost miss the tower wrecking it for 7000,LOL never stops.

hit quality always tick(and bypassing skills) no matter do you shoot stiletto,moon,planet nor does that planet went bezerk and is running thru system or is standing still one will still manage to loose hope of any logical outcome shooting one!

Explained enough?

nwm didnt catch his 2nd post hi is talking paper dps.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Thutmose I
Rattium Incorporated
#29 - 2013-02-01 17:30:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Thutmose I
the eve fitting window will say the same damage, for the same fit, with same skills/implants/ammo/etc. Exceptional treatment by Lady Luck is not factored into the number given there.

Your two fittings may have something else factoring damage which you are unaware of.


It will not say "dps range of 0 (you miss every time) to 4x normal (or whatever maximum damage hit does compare to normal)"
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#30 - 2013-02-02 11:14:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Whitehound wrote:
Attention If you only post the information of which you know is not helping you, then how do you expect us to find your problem?
Please do make screenshots of your fitting as seen on the fitting screen and in the fittings browser.
... I know that the fitting manager does have some problems with calculating drone DPS properly, because it cannot see which drones you will actually be using and also does not know which the best mix for a given bandwidth is. This can lead to different numbers, too.

THIS.

Mina Sebiestar wrote:
hardest hit on static tower 24000-25000 alpha monster...then,pay attention what i wrote next...nothing changes N A D A,zip,zero,0..next mina hit is 8000alpha irrelevant difference of oh,16000alpha is just gone.

Turret damage ranges from 50% of paper base damage to 150% of paper base damage for 99% of the hits against structure targets (chance of each damage being pretty much the same in the entire range), and 300% of paper base damage for 1% of the hits ("wrecking shots").
So, while unlikely, it is still POSSIBLE to get the exact same pilot dealing X damage in one volley (all hits at minimum damage) and next hit could then deal 6*X damage (all wrecking shots) when attacking a structure (100% chance to score a hit).
Yes, it is POSSIBLE (but highly unlikely) to get a six-fold damage difference in subsequent volleys against structures.
The more turrets are involved in the volley, the more improbable this is (i.e. with 5 turrets, it's literally a "one in ten billion volleys" situation for all to simultaneously score wrecking shots, while the lowest roll is similarly unlikely, making that combo as good as impossible to happen more than, or even just once in the entire lifetime of the game... and it only gets more improbable from there for more turrets).

In comparison, you're talking of just a X vs 3*X damage difference.
That could as well be the "good" hit having 2 wreckings and rest pretty good hits, and the next having mostly bad hits.
The odds of that happening are more along the lines of once every few dozens of millions of volleys.
Very infrequently happening, but certainly COULD happen even with a perfect RNG.
And since the RNG is not that perfect, it might actually happen even more often.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#31 - 2013-02-02 17:08:25 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Friend manages tracking better? Friend is closer in range (~11km closer improves DPS by 10% with 800ACs.) Friend remembers to turn on his tracking modules? Friend lets you shoot first against the higher resist shields, and he then shoots the armor which has lower resists? The RNG really loves him and/or hates you? You friend is quoting damage numbers in base 8? You friend is just throwing out random numbers while he's busy making out with your girlfriend?



Bolded the relevant bit. This shouldn't even exist. One of the reasons I die horribly in PvP so often. Here's me doing next to no damage consistently, and then they fire and vaporize my hull in one shut. Happens with a startling regularity.

Granted, while I believe all the other factors CCP has put into play should account for the majority of damage mitigation and modification, I also believe it doesn't hurt to add a bit of random to the roll. The fact is though, it is far too much as it is; the random modifier should account for no more then variations in the shape of the hull and/or possibly unseen space debris that gets in the way of a shot if all other factors are accounted for, and presumably they are.

I fired literally >15 volleys on a Proteus with a zero damage result, well within falloff and with him approaching me from ~80km at <500 m/s on average just a few short weeks ago. This after hitting him at greater range with higher transversal for significantly more than nothing, and followed shortly after by me getting some minor hits on him before I warped off.

How is that even normal or reasonable? Particularly in consideration of the fact that I had both Tracking Enhancers and Tracking Computers up and running. RNG

This probably hurts solo PvP more than anything else.
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Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#32 - 2013-02-02 17:11:06 UTC
Akita T wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Attention If you only post the information of which you know is not helping you, then how do you expect us to find your problem?
Please do make screenshots of your fitting as seen on the fitting screen and in the fittings browser.
... I know that the fitting manager does have some problems with calculating drone DPS properly, because it cannot see which drones you will actually be using and also does not know which the best mix for a given bandwidth is. This can lead to different numbers, too.

THIS.

Mina Sebiestar wrote:
hardest hit on static tower 24000-25000 alpha monster...then,pay attention what i wrote next...nothing changes N A D A,zip,zero,0..next mina hit is 8000alpha irrelevant difference of oh,16000alpha is just gone.

Turret damage ranges from 50% of paper base damage to 150% of paper base damage for 99% of the hits against structure targets (chance of each damage being pretty much the same in the entire range), and 300% of paper base damage for 1% of the hits ("wrecking shots").
So, while unlikely, it is still POSSIBLE to get the exact same pilot dealing X damage in one volley (all hits at minimum damage) and next hit could then deal 6*X damage (all wrecking shots) when attacking a structure (100% chance to score a hit).
Yes, it is POSSIBLE (but highly unlikely) to get a six-fold damage difference in subsequent volleys against structures.
The more turrets are involved in the volley, the more improbable this is (i.e. with 5 turrets, it's literally a "one in ten billion volleys" situation for all to simultaneously score wrecking shots, while the lowest roll is similarly unlikely, making that combo as good as impossible to happen more than, or even just once in the entire lifetime of the game... and it only gets more improbable from there for more turrets).

In comparison, you're talking of just a X vs 3*X damage difference.
That could as well be the "good" hit having 2 wreckings and rest pretty good hits, and the next having mostly bad hits.
The odds of that happening are more along the lines of once every few dozens of millions of volleys.
Very infrequently happening, but certainly COULD happen even with a perfect RNG.
And since the RNG is not that perfect, it might actually happen even more often.


Does that include grouped turrets?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#33 - 2013-02-03 14:09:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Mars Theran wrote:
Does that include grouped turrets?

The way the devs described turret grouping back when they introduced it, the only difference is in the pre-calculations (getting the values for optimal, tracking, distance, etc - all of which are pretty computationally intensive, especially for the database part) which in grouped weapons are only calculated once per group (not individually for each weapon), but they still roll as many individual random numbers as the numbers of weapons are involved and apply damage accordingly.

Theoretically, it should not make much of a difference.
Practically, you're getting several sequential (or at least much tighter-spaced) RNG numbers, which due to the fact the RNG is a pseudo-RNG might have ever so slightly different statistic properties.
The overall average odds should still be nearly the same, but you might get more extreme results a tiny bit faster than with individual turrets.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#34 - 2013-02-04 17:22:31 UTC
Xaexia Attor wrote:
Thanks for the replys guys, no im talking about the DPS that the fitting manager is telling us, not in space mission running



found your problem

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Never forget.
Whitehound
#35 - 2013-02-04 17:54:01 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Xaexia Attor wrote:
Thanks for the replys guys, no im talking about the DPS that the fitting manager is telling us, not in space mission running



found your problem

Seems like it.

My assumption is this: he and his buddy did not know what to do, so he had the idea to go onto the forums and show his desperation, then left satisfactory with the knowledge of someone else having the problem, and both are now back at shooting ships again.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
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